Author Topic: Health Care in England Question  (Read 40226 times)

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Offline andy750

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Re: Health Care in England Question
« Reply #200 on: September 03, 2009, 12:33:53 PM »
Had we invested just 40% of the money that we wasted on General Motors ($20 Billion out of $50 Billion) into small businesses doing biotech research, that could have provided 200,000 medical research jobs paying $100,000/year.  I'd sooner put my money on a motivated businessman with a family and a mortgage over a stoned grad student with a trust fund any day.

Thanks for this Ed. It CLEARLY shows you have NO idea what you are talking about. Your figures for jobs are fantasy-land Limbaugh figures.

You have NO idea how science in the US works and your immature comment about stoned grad students is insulting to the thousands of dedicated young scientists working in academic instiution in the US today. Most of these people are pulling 60-80 hr weeks on minium NIH pay (around $35,000/yr) - slave labour indeed. But they do it for the love of science and medical and therapeautic innovation and breakthroughs as well as furthering their chosen careers in the biotech, medical or science fields.

Andy

 
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Offline MickeyX

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Re: Health Care in England Question
« Reply #201 on: September 03, 2009, 12:43:04 PM »
I see Ed is still talking about ENGLAND'S healthcare. He must really care about you guys across the pond.  :D
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Offline andy750

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Re: Health Care in England Question
« Reply #202 on: September 03, 2009, 12:45:29 PM »
I see Ed is still talking about ENGLAND'S healthcare. He must really care about you guys across the pond.  :D

Yeah but unfortunately he has NO IDEA what he is talking about. Reminds me of a bobble head in a car...

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Offline HavocTurbo

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Re: Health Care in England Question
« Reply #203 on: September 03, 2009, 12:51:41 PM »
I have a question....

And I just now noticed this.

I pay taxes for medicare/medicaid. Yet I cannot receive any benefits unless I sign up for it.

Why do I have to pay for it if it doesn't benefit me in any way?


ED--- Please only you answer this. I honestly want your opinion.
« Last Edit: September 03, 2009, 08:26:10 PM by HavocTurbo »
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Offline Inigo Montoya

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Re: Health Care in England Question
« Reply #204 on: September 03, 2009, 12:54:59 PM »
ed, how will the cost of health care fall? There is NO free market. It will not happen unless competition is forced upon insurance companies. Also, you like to gripe about people in europe waiting months for health care but what about the people in the US denied coverage because their insurance will not pay for it? There have been people like that who have died. So that blows out your argument on that point. Second, I notice you never answered anything about your parents and their insurance. Good chance they are/will be on medicare which is......drumroll here...govt run. Same with Medicaid  and both work just as good as any private insurance.
I am sure you will do everything you can to find some slanted story to bash it as that is your M.O. thats how you operate against everything that you seem to have no rational defense for.

Reform MUST happen. Either competition such as what auto insurance has or a govt option. This is even more apparent when I drive by bcbs 2 year old massive building virtually completely clad in stainless steel and I pay 400 a month for my family. I seriously doubt I would pay 400 a month in taxes for a govt option.

Offline HavocTurbo

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Re: Health Care in England Question
« Reply #205 on: September 03, 2009, 12:57:57 PM »
I'm pretty sure we have established the fact that Medicare and Medicaid are broken.

Ed agreed. We all say it needs to be either fixed or changed. That's where Ed differs. He wants to fix it. I can't blame him.

Most of us want a whole new system. To avoid all the loopholes. But can you really have that?
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Offline Inigo Montoya

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Re: Health Care in England Question
« Reply #206 on: September 03, 2009, 07:46:07 PM »
Is it really broken? If so then the private system is completely busted up.

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/09/03/opinion/03kristof.html?_r=2
The nyt might slant but they include links to back things up.

Offline HavocTurbo

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Re: Health Care in England Question
« Reply #207 on: September 03, 2009, 07:49:52 PM »
Is it really broken? If so then the private system is completely busted up.

Are you joking?
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Offline Inigo Montoya

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Re: Health Care in England Question
« Reply #208 on: September 03, 2009, 07:59:27 PM »
Not at all. I pay 400 a month and STILL have co-pays. The cost goes up every year even though I dont use it that much. I consider the private system broken.
http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2009/9/3/775815/-The-Real-Death-Panels:-Insurers-Deny-22-of-Claims-
I mean that says it right there I think. A broke system would not deny that many people.

Offline edbikerii

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Re: Health Care in England Question
« Reply #209 on: September 03, 2009, 08:02:44 PM »
HT, I am just trying to remind people who seem to be blinded by all the rhetoric and hollywood bull.  We all know that the government has royally screwed up THREE single-payer healthcare systems already (Medicare, Medicaid and VA Hospitals).  Does anybody here think that those systems adequately meet the needs of the people they are supposed to serve?

If those government-run, single-payer systems worked adequately, we wouldn't be having this debate.

Medicaid is supposed to cover the uninsured poor in this nation, yet we still have so many who are uninsured.  Why?  Don't we already pay enough out of our paychecks to fund it?  Why doesn't the government simply expand Medicaid to cover more people?  Oh, you say it is inefficient, wasteful and corrupt.  Oh, I see.   ::)

Medicare is supposed to cover the health care needs of the elderly in this nation, yet 60.7% of our elderly on Medicare have private, out-of-pocket insurance (also known as Medigap) either on their own, or through their former employers, in order to get acceptable health care.  Only 9.3% have Medicare alone.  The remaining 30% are supplemented by Medicaid and other poverty-oriented systems.  Source: http://www.ahipresearch.org/pdfs/MedigapWhitePaper.pdf

VA Hospitals are well-known to be abysmal, and I won't even waste any breath expounding on that.  VA Hospitals are a national travesty that our government should be ASHAMED of.

Why do we need to ruin the excellent private health care system we have, that serves us so well that 87% of Americans rank it as "Excellent" or "Good" in Gallup polls?  Source (again):  http://www.gallup.com/poll/122663/Private-Public-Health-Plan-Subscribers-Rate-Plans-Similarly.aspx?CSTS=alert

All this crap about medical bankruptcy is very interesting rhetoric, too.  Amazing how the devil is in the details.  It turns out that 100% of bankruptcies result from excessive consumption (like we didn't know that), with some 50% of them claiming that health "issues" (NOT "medical bills") "contributed" to their financial problems.  Well no #$%*.  Americans are over-extended because they kept borrowing against their houses to buy marble bathrooms, DisneyLand vacations, BMWs and Starbucks Lattes.  The poor are are now strapped with massive debt because Barney Frank and his buddies at Fannie Mae insisted that banks be REQUIRED to loan money to people who could NEVER PAY IT BACK, and he STILL ARDENTLY REFUSES TO REFORM THOSE LENDING PRACTICES [source: http://online.wsj.com/article/SB122091796187012529.html].   Then, over-extended Americans suddenly get sick, can't work, and have to live on 66% disability salary after they spent 200% of their original salary on bull-#$%*.  Well, it turns out that they get a free ride and go bankrupt if they cry to the judge that their medical bills made them bankrupt, since the bankruptcy laws were made more stringent in 2005.  More and more claimants have to resort to "medical issues" as an argument in order to garner sympathy from the judges.  Source:  http://www.gsm.ucdavis.edu/uploadedFiles/Faculty/Directory_and_Profiles/personal_bank.pdf


Oh, and another thing.  What about PRIVACY?  Obama wants all of the providers to adopt standard computer protocols so that they can all share our medical records instantaneously and "efficiently".  So, every doctor you visit anywhere in the United States would be able to see that you got a penicillin shot while you were dating that crazy chick ten years back.  Great.  I can see the scenario now.  Hmmmm... people with genital herpes tend to engage in "higher risk" activities, so maybe we shouldn't hire them.  Oh, and you had an HIV test, too?  Well, good thing it was negative.  I wonder how long before private investigators will be paying doctors cash under the table for your personal information before you are able to get hired for that cherry job you are seeking.  Those couple weeks you spent in rehab 5 years ago just might be interesting to your prospective boss, too.  Yeah, I want the government to have control over all that, too. ::)

And Andy, since I "have no idea what I'm talking about", why don't you just refer to the references I've posted.  Or address ANY ONE of them without trying to re-direct the arguments into something that fits the agenda you have adopted with seemingly religious zeal.  Have you lost all of your ability to objectively analyze facts and credible sources as I have been posting them?   Have the magical mantras, "Hope", and "Yes We Can!", mesmerized you so that you are no longer willing to learn and listen to facts?

For those that ask why I'm so concerned about the UK and Canadian systems, I'll point out that they are the two largest single-payer systems that are in existence.  They are very well documented and information about their short-comings is readily available on the internet.  They are the model that Obama and our other liberals in congress are using to try to "reform" our system.  Obama has said, in no uncertain terms, that his goal is to get to universal single-payer, despite his claims to the contrary now that single-payer is proving to be un-popular with the vast majority of Americans.  Of course his "public option" plan provides taxes for companies that drop their private health-care for their employees (TAXPAYERS).  That payroll tax is lower than the cost of the original health care, so there's an excellent incentive for employers to drop, and leave us all hanging on the "public option".  Some option  ::) Source: http://money.cnn.com/2009/09/03/news/economy/health_care_class_act.fortune/index.htm?section=money_topstories.  Several congressmen have also stated that they favor single-payer, including both Senators from NJ, Lautenberg (D) and Menendez (D), and representative Rothman (D) from where I live.


I'm pretty sure we have established the fact that Medicare and Medicaid are broken.

Ed agreed. We all say it needs to be either fixed or changed. That's where Ed differs. He wants to fix it. I can't blame him.

Most of us want a whole new system. To avoid all the loopholes. But can you really have that?
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Offline Inigo Montoya

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Re: Health Care in England Question
« Reply #210 on: September 03, 2009, 08:05:40 PM »
And yet you want to fight against ANY reform to make it better? I guess you like paying through the nose.
Like I said, either govt option needs to be made available as  a choice, OR a person should be able to shop around for coverage thus hopefully lower prices through competition. Suppose you are against either of those too ed.

I know you are the expert on everything political ed, or should I say political bs and attempted fear-mongering.
Shouldn't you be in bed ed to work as hard as you say to keep paying all those taxes that pay for roads and everything else you use?
« Last Edit: September 03, 2009, 08:07:33 PM by vinmans brew »

Offline edbikerii

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Re: Health Care in England Question
« Reply #211 on: September 03, 2009, 08:15:02 PM »
OMFG!!! haven't you been paying ANY ATTENTION AT ALL?  How many times have I proposed alternatives that would make things better on this very thread?

The "public option" is not an option.  It ENCOURAGES EMPLOYERS TO DROP INSURANCE because the payroll tax required for NOT having insurance is CHEAPER than the private insurance.  The income tax (on the employee, NOT the employer) and all the side taxes that they haven't yet dreamed up, will cover the short-falls in the plan.  Read the article on CNN Money's website by the same author whose link I last posted.  I'm tired of looking up and posting links to these articles over-and-over-again when you guys obviously don't read them.


And yet you want to fight against ANY reform to make it better? I guess you like paying through the nose.
Like I said, either govt option needs to be made available as  a choice, OR a person should be able to shop around for coverage thus hopefully lower prices through competition. Suppose you are against either of those too ed.
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Offline HavocTurbo

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Re: Health Care in England Question
« Reply #212 on: September 03, 2009, 08:26:29 PM »
I'll repeat it.....

I have a question....

And I just now noticed this.

I pay taxes for medicare/medicaid. Yet I cannot receive any benefits unless I sign up for it.

Why do I have to pay for it if it doesn't benefit me in any way?


ED--- Please only you answer this. I honestly want your opinion.
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Offline edbikerii

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Re: Health Care in England Question
« Reply #213 on: September 03, 2009, 08:54:15 PM »
That's a great question.  Why not give us vouchers in exchange for our tax payments so we can truly choose our own health care solutions?

If you want the actuarial point of view on these things, read the link I posted earlier about the financial comedy the current healthcare proposal.   They go into depth on the costs and the new tax revenues that will be required to fund it, if it passes:

http://cnnmoney.printthis.clickability.com/pt/cpt?action=cpt&title=The+shortcomings+of+CLASS+Act+-+Sep.+3%2C+2009&expire=-1&urlID=409909452&fb=Y&url=http%3A%2F%2Fmoney.cnn.com%2F2009%2F09%2F03%2Fnews%2Feconomy%2Fhealth_care_class_act.fortune%2Findex.htm&partnerID=2200

The crazy math of health-care reform

A new program for long-term care is billed as a money saver. In fact, it does just the opposite.

By Shawn Tully, editor at large
September 3, 2009: 10:16 AM ET
NEW YORK (Fortune) -- This is the sixth installment in a series of health-care columns by Fortune's Shawn Tully.

Embedded in the health-care plan moving forward is a truly gravity-defying new device: a costly entitlement program portrayed as a way to save money. So how can you raise billions with a program that can't even pay for itself? Only by using the crazy math that governs in the world of health-care reform.

The gimmick was hatched on July 15 when the Senate Committee on Health, Education, Labor & Pensions approved a federal insurance plan for long-term care called the Community Living Assistance Services and Supports Act, or CLASS Act.

The plan, which would provide modest benefits to people who can't perform such simple daily tasks as bathing or feeding themselves, was one of Sen. Ted Kennedy's last crusades. It quickly became a favorite among Democrats, who are now adding the CLASS Act to the leading proposal in the House, H.R. 3200, passed by the Energy & Commerce Committee.

While no one doubts the bill's humane intentions, its ardent champions have another motive as well. A budget gimmick allows them to claim that CLASS Act helps pay for health-care reform.

The Democrats are promising a "deficit neutral" plan, which means that according to rules set by the Congressional Budget Office, they need to find about $1 trillion in new taxes and savings over the next ten years. Right how, the House legislation stands around $250 billion short.

The CLASS Act looks like a gift: It brings in $58 billion in net tax revenues by 2019, lowering the deficit by an equivalent amount because only minor costs will be booked during that period. Under the CBO rules, the CLASS Act technically covers one-quarter of the $250 billion shortfall in funds needed to pay for health-care reform.

The gimmick lies in looking only at the CBO's ten-year budget window. The extra revenues are an illusion because of the disaster lurking just beyond that horizon.

In fact, none of the $58 billion is available to pay for the House bill. The CLASS Act is so poorly designed that the $58 billion reserve and all future premiums won't come close to covering the generous benefits it's promising.

Here's why the mechanics of the CLASS Act assure its eventual collapse.

Under the bill, all working Americans would have the option of contributing a payroll tax averaging $65 a month for long-term care. The eventual benefit for most recipients would be $75 a day or $27,000 a year.

It could be used towards nursing-home expenses, but the main goal is to allow infirm Americans to get the care the need from aides or therapists in their own homes so they're not forced into nursing homes.

But the CLASS Act's premiums aren't remotely high enough to cover a likely deluge of claims. "It's a microcosm of many of the weaknesses in the health-care reform bills," says Steve Schoonveld of the American Academy of Actuaries (AAA), which did an excellent analysis of the CLASS Act.

The plan's main problem is that it encourages what's known as "adverse selection" -- it will attract an extremely high proportion of people who are sick and near retirement, and a relatively small share of the young and healthy needed to create a sound insurance plan.

One big weakness is that the CLASS Act doesn't screen for medical problems, or even require information about them. Hence, workers or their spouses can sign up even if they're already ill. By contrast, private plans require strict testing.

Participants in the CLASS program can also start collecting benefits after just five years, a period the AAA deems far too short. Workers and their spouses can also stop paying premiums, then rejoin when they get sick with no penalty.

As a result, the AAA expects that the plan will be swamped by people who know they have medical problems when they sign up, and demand benefits right after they've paid for five years.

The AAA says that the plan would become insolvent by 2021 -- just beyond the CBO's budget window -- and would have to raise its premiums to $180 a month to meet its costs, a 177% increase.

That would put the CLASS Act into a death spiral, since virtually all younger and even moderately healthy participants would drop out. It would become a program exclusively for the old and sick, driving premiums still higher.

The most likely outcome is that we'll never get to the $180 premiums needed to fund the plan. Congress will be forced to pay enormous subsidies to keep the premiums low enough to encourage young and healthy people to sign up. Pressure will also be intense to raise the benefits to pay for more nursing-home expenses.

Instead of funding the shortfall in the House bill, the CLASS Act will create a giant budget shortfall of its own. Unfortunately, gimmickry like this is the kind of thing that has fanned public fears about health-care reform doing more harm than good.



I'll repeat it.....

I have a question....

And I just now noticed this.

I pay taxes for medicare/medicaid. Yet I cannot receive any benefits unless I sign up for it.

Why do I have to pay for it if it doesn't benefit me in any way?


ED--- Please only you answer this. I honestly want your opinion.
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Offline edbikerii

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Re: Health Care in England Question
« Reply #214 on: September 03, 2009, 09:06:24 PM »
And HT, here's another article by the same author.  He suggests an alternative plan, which I can't comment on yet as I have to think it through more, but in the process he also points out a lot of the issues we NEVER hear about in the mainstream media, such as simple FAIRNESS:

http://cnnmoney.printthis.clickability.com/pt/cpt?action=cpt&title=A+free-market+proposal+for+reforming+health+care+-+Aug.+19%2C+2009&expire=-1&urlID=408906800&fb=Y&url=http%3A%2F%2Fmoney.cnn.com%2F2009%2F08%2F18%2Fnews%2Feconomy%2Fobamacare_alternative.fortune%2Findex.htm&partnerID=2200
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Offline demon78

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Re: Health Care in England Question
« Reply #215 on: September 04, 2009, 04:01:12 AM »
Ed a couple of questions for you, why are you screaming at us I find it insulting and if I did it to you, you would howl about it. Next question what percentage of Canadians, Brits are pissed off at their health care system and contrast it with the percentage of Americans that are pissed at their system ?
Bill the demon.

Offline andy750

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Re: Health Care in England Question
« Reply #216 on: September 04, 2009, 04:45:26 AM »

And Andy, since I "have no idea what I'm talking about", why don't you just refer to the references I've posted.  Or address ANY ONE of them without trying to re-direct the arguments into something that fits the agenda you have adopted with seemingly religious zeal.  Have you lost all of your ability to objectively analyze facts and credible sources as I have been posting them?  

Ill address this and then let it go. You have demonstrated Ed that you make false claims with your links, you seem to enjoy scaremongering and detailing the worst of any system. As Bill the Demon implies there are many more people enjoying the benefits of the NHS than not. Thus your misinformation is not only wrong but its insulting.

The reason I dont address any of your points is because most of them are BS scaremongering claims and to address them would give them some validity. I notice you glossed over my rebuttal of your NIH spending lies to name one as well as your immature "stoned grad student" comment. And as I said previously you can find any number of links on the internet to prove your point but...that dosent make you any more right  ::). You seem to lack this basic understanding.

So in essence Ed, your style, your language, your misinformation, all lack credibility to me and so I refuse to waste any more of my time with you. Unlike you I dont have religious zeal, I have truth zeal instead......if I am passionate in my rebuttals its due to the fact I just cant stand misinformation, lies and rumour.

Andy



« Last Edit: September 04, 2009, 04:55:35 AM by andy750 »
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Offline edbikerii

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Re: Health Care in England Question
« Reply #217 on: September 04, 2009, 05:16:48 AM »
...The reason I dont address any of your points...

I guess this just about says it all then, doesn't it.

Ignore Gallup, CNN, the Wall Street Journal, etc.  I guess you know better.

Good luck, Andy.
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Offline demon78

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Re: Health Care in England Question
« Reply #218 on: September 04, 2009, 05:20:24 AM »
Andy +10.            Ed what about the percentages?
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Offline andy750

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Re: Health Care in England Question
« Reply #219 on: September 04, 2009, 07:26:25 AM »
Bill,

I was curious so went and found these four links - picked at random....giving a range of opinions...

"What does the UK think of the NHS?

People seem happy with their NHS care, with more than 90% consistently rating their inpatient care as good, very good, or excellent (fig 1Go).5 In a 2006 survey for the Department of Health, 74% of those who attended a general practice or local healthcare centre were completely satisfied that their main reason for attending had been dealt with. Of the others, 22% were satisfied "to some extent" and only 4% were not satisfied at all.6"

TAKEN FROM:

http://www.bmj.com/cgi/content/full/336/7659/1469

And another website...same info

90% of UK NHS patients satisfied according to this poll (and we all know how BS polls)..

http://www.inthenews.co.uk/thebigissue/news/health/patient-satisfaction-$1085847$1085847.htm

and yet another poll showing different numbers - 58% are satisfied...as you will read its all to do with politics and poll numbers/type of questions asked can be manipulated to suit your needs (mmm where have I seen that before  ;))...

http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2000/dec/19/health.nhsstaff2

Ok middle of the road answer from the National Statistics deparment - 72% satisfied...

http://www.statistics.gov.uk/STATBASE/ssdataset.asp?vlnk=7402


But hey I just picked out the bits I want to show you and left out the negative reports for you to find yourself  8) ::)

Overall you can say that the UK is pretty lucky to have the NHS despite its many failings. Of course if you have been a recent patient of the NHS you are usually more appreciative  ;) .

cheers
Andy





Current bikes
1. CB750K4: Long distance bike, 17 countries and counting...2001 - Trans-USA-Mexico, 2003 - European Tour, 2004 - SOHC Easy Rider Trip , 2008 - Adirondack Tour 2-up , 2013 - Tail of the Dragon Tour , 2017: 836 kit install and bottom end rebuild. And rebirth: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,173213.msg2029836.html#msg2029836
2. CB750/810cc K2  - road racer with JMR worked head 71 hp
3. Yamaha Tenere T700 2022

Where did you go on your bike today? - http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=45183.2350

Offline mark

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Re: Health Care in England Question
« Reply #220 on: September 04, 2009, 09:58:23 AM »
........... We should not be stuck with 1 or 2 companies based in your state. You should have the option to get insurance from anywhere in the country.

Dick Armey was on the tube a couple weeks ago blathering about that....

Great idea....

Let's allow insurance companies to go national and buy each other up until we're stuck with 3 or 4 companies that are just 'too big to fail'. Then, when real costs and CEO bonuses spiral out of control, they can declare bankruptcy and scream for taxpayer bailouts.

It worked for the banks, didn't it?

 ???
1976 CB550K, 1973 CB350G, 1964 C100

F you mark...... F you.

Offline HavocTurbo

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Re: Health Care in England Question
« Reply #221 on: September 04, 2009, 11:23:59 AM »
And the auto industry as well...
'48 HD Panhead - Exxon Valdez
'78 CB550K - Fokker CB.3
'78 Honda CB750K - Mavrik
'80 Yamaha XS850G - Kanibalistik
09 XL883L - No Name

Offline Ogri

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Re: Health Care in England Question
« Reply #222 on: September 04, 2009, 11:45:52 AM »
My Father had a triple heart bypass about 20 years ago when he was 65. It's a big op; basically they cut you open from your throat down to your abs then cut the sternum and open up the ribs like a book. And that's just the start. Took about 8 hours. God only knows what that would have cost in the land of the free.
I don't know of people being refused care because they're too old - don't think it would ever happen. Even inveterate alcoholics are given liver transplants.

He's 85 now, very sharp and active..probably more active than me.

Last year I rode into the side of a car turning right on me. Gashed up my leg, needed stitches in both knees. The stitches started bleeding and I went back and they re-did them. They offered physiotherapy afterwards but I declined as I thought it was getting better on its own. All free, all done very professionally. Sometimes you have to wait an hour or maybe more if your problem isn't life threatening, I take a book to read in the waiting room.

The idea of paying for medical care is very strange.

Offline Inigo Montoya

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Re: Health Care in England Question
« Reply #223 on: September 04, 2009, 02:54:26 PM »
Well it seems everyone has no ideas on how to fix it then. I still think the competition thing would work if there was enough regulation but then if regulations had been in place, we might not be in this mess.

Offline demon78

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Re: Health Care in England Question
« Reply #224 on: September 04, 2009, 04:10:00 PM »
Ogri 1+
Bill the demon.