Author Topic: Was anyone else deeply offended by the "You Lie!" outburst?  (Read 18330 times)

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Offline Inigo Montoya

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Re: Was anyone else deeply offended by the "You Lie!" outburst?
« Reply #50 on: September 10, 2009, 01:49:58 PM »
Tom, I didn't assault any messenger. I confronted the accuser, you. Your claims about obama preclude you from being a messenger. But you are a good dancer, I mean just look at that sidestep! people who fly to one side or the other like you do, are part of what is wrong here. What ever happened to moderation? Go down the middle, not down party lines. Make your own decisions based on what is right for humanity, not for some corporation or fatcat. the sooner repubs and dems got knocked off their power base, the sooner we can get moving forward again.

Offline Slayer

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Re: Was anyone else deeply offended by the "You Lie!" outburst?
« Reply #51 on: September 10, 2009, 02:58:37 PM »
Once again, the "problem" isn't really that much of a problem in the first place.  According to Gallup polls 87% of Americans rate American health care as Excellent or Good.

http://www.gallup.com/poll/122663/Private-Public-Health-Plan-Subscribers-Rate-Plans-Similarly.aspx?CSTS=alert



Well, for once Ed has made a valid point. Healthcare is very good in this country. As a healthcare provider, I thank you.  :) We try very hard. The fact that people live much better and longer is proof that we are doing well. All over the world, not just here. It takes people from everywhere, diversity is the key, to figure out how to accomplish some of the things we do.

Now if he can just finally figure out that healthcare and health insurance/coverage are 2 different things.



I am curious if this many people actually are satisfied with current public health in America. Yes, modern medicine is great but getting it is a nightmare. Most people just tough it out and don't see a doctor when they should because it is so bad. After my wreck I had to wait two weeks to see a public doctor and all he said was "did you learn something?" and gave me #$%*ty pain killers that did nothing. Meanwhile I saw a private doctor and he fixed me right up without the use of drugs.

Can we look at the V.A. as an example for public health care? They managed to burn a crispy hole in my back while I was unconscious during a tonsillectomy with no excuse or reason. After that I got a letter stating that my private information was floating around somewhere lost so basically expect some identity theft in the future, which I ran into. I fear public health care.   

Offline bucky katt

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Re: Was anyone else deeply offended by the "You Lie!" outburst?
« Reply #52 on: September 10, 2009, 03:21:01 PM »
yes, yet another politician making the good residents of this state embarassed to live here. i was deeply offended by re wilson interrupting the way he did, not saying i disagree with him but you dont interrupt the man talking no matter who or where you are. that said, without the help of joe wilson i feel totally sure that i would still have no action being taken on my disability claim. it's his intervention that has gotten me the action i have. within 2 weeks of my contacting him things started getting done. it was nearly 2 years till i decided to try and get help. stupid me.
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Offline Ecosse

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Re: Was anyone else deeply offended by the "You Lie!" outburst?
« Reply #53 on: September 10, 2009, 03:32:25 PM »
I am curious if this many people actually are satisfied with current public health in America. Yes, modern medicine is great but getting it is a nightmare. Most people just tough it out and don't see a doctor when they should because it is so bad. After my wreck I had to wait two weeks to see a public doctor and all he said was "did you learn something?" and gave me #$%*ty pain killers that did nothing. Meanwhile I saw a private doctor and he fixed me right up without the use of drugs.

Can we look at the V.A. as an example for public health care? They managed to burn a crispy hole in my back while I was unconscious during a tonsillectomy with no excuse or reason. After that I got a letter stating that my private information was floating around somewhere lost so basically expect some identity theft in the future, which I ran into. I fear public health care.   

take it for what it's worth but stories are coming out how bad the care is for native americans... who receive care "courtesy" of the fed.

as for being offended i generally believe in maintaining decorum, protocol, and etiquette, etc... especially among elected officials, but if the worst thing we have to worry about in this country is being offended, i say we're a lucky. sometimes it's the ballsy representative who speaks the most sincerely. sometimes.  ;D



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Offline DammitDan

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Re: Was anyone else deeply offended by the "You Lie!" outburst?
« Reply #54 on: September 10, 2009, 05:04:47 PM »
OK, so here's an alternative plan.  Any comments?
PLEASE EVALUATE THIS PROPOSED SOLUTION.  PLEASE TRY TO BE OBJECTIVE AND NON-PARTISAN.  PLEASE LET ME KNOW WHAT YOU THINK -- CONSTRUCTIVELY

Once again, the solution is not to take away more control from the consumer (the patient, the taxpayer, us), and give it to some government bureaucrat.  Nor is it good to allow the insurance company bureaucrats to keep control, either!

I think the solution is to give the consumer more choice, and give them an incentive to try to reduce the costs THEMSELVES.

I think the problem of rising health care costs is primarily a result of patients not bothering to think about the costs at all because they don't think they have to.  Patients typically don't care, because they know that the insurance company is going to pay.  Patients don't ask simple questions that any normal consumer in any other market would ask like "how much will that cost?", "why is that so expensive?", "do I really need that?", and "isn't there a cheaper way?"

Let me try to illustrate this with an example:
If you walk into a supermarket and you can either buy lobster for $15/lb. or hamburger for $4/lb., how likely are you to buy lobster every night for dinner?

If, on the other hand, you knew that somebody else was paying for your groceries, you might be more inclined to buy the lobster, even though the hamburger may, in fact, have better nutritional value.  In fact, you might even be more likely to buy the lobster JUST BECAUSE you know that other people could buy it on YOUR insurance premium dollar, so "why not".  After all, it will only increase your insurance premium by a couple cents, when spread out among all the other shoppers.  Besides, those other shoppers are probably eating lobster on my insurance premiums, so why shouldn't I?

Now, let's extend that analogy to health care.  if we could incent the patients to be more efficient with their healthcare spending, we wouldn't need the bureaucrats at the insurance company or in the government to ration the care, and the cost would be much lower.  The patients would take responsibility for their own choices, and expect more from their doctors, drug companies, and diagnostic equipment, for the same money.

You might also find that people take better care of themselves because they don't want to spend more money on health issues later.

So, I'm thinking that increasing the deductibles is a major part of the solution.  First off, it will make the insurance premiums cheaper right off the bat.  Secondly, it will incent the patients to bargain with their medical providers and ask the difficult questions about necessity and price, rather than just saying, "sure, let's do it, what the hell".  Then, the costs are lower, the providers would have to compete for business (always a good thing), and the providers would strive to come up with better, and/or cheaper methods to provide the same service.

Now, remember the money saved on the insurance premiums because of the higher deductibles?  GIVE THAT MONEY TO THE EMPLOYEES in order to pay for their regular health care.  You know, the stuff that doesn't exceed the deductibles:  Regular check-ups, etc.  The only restriction should be that they can ONLY SPEND THAT MONEY ON HEALTH-RELATED EXPENSES.  If they manage to save enough, they can use it to get their teeth fixed, to get breast enhancements, whatever.  Let them accumulate the money year after year and save up for costly stuff that they want done like lap-band surgeries, whatever.

Getting the costs down will help with Medicare and Medicaid, and the VA Hospitals, too.  All the learned efficiency from trying to keep the patients happy will lead to cost reductions ACROSS THE BOARD, and will lead to doctors, drug companies, hospitals and medical device manufactures innovating more in order to generate more profit and to make the patients happier.

Sure, I haven't ironed out all the details, but this idea sounds a hell of a lot better to me than anything I'm hearing from that mess of a health care "reform" bill so far.

So, what do you think?  Does this start to meet the needs?  Does it encourage innovation?  Does it preserve our excellent health care system for everyone?  Does it make health care more accessible?  Does it make it better for EVERYBODY?

If the liberals are so concerned about the poor, then why the assumption that the government should control it?  Why not set up charities and take care of them directly?

You know why - when the economy tanks and the charity actually needs the money to do it's work the donations are not there. Thus, a crappy long term solution.

Ed, your proposal makes sound economic sense, but it supports the rich over the poor.  Let's use another analogy:

A rich man and a poor man buy the same model of car.  The car develops a high-pitched squeaking noise from the right front wheel.  The rich man immediately takes it in for the mechanic to look at it.  It turns out it's a wheel bearing which is going bad.  The wheel bearing is replaced for a hundred dollars and the car continues on for many thousand more miles.

The poor man puts it off and puts it off and puts it off because hey, it might get better and besides I can barely cover rent, I don't have the money to pay the mechanic to take a look at it right now.  He put it off so long that eventually the wheel stops spinning while on the way to work and he runs off into the ditch.  He has the car towed to the mechanic, the mechanic takes a look at it and has to replace the entire front end which costs many thousands of dollars.

Raising deductibles would work, but it places a heavier burden on those who would be less able to pay for it.  Putting off a car repair is one thing; putting off a checkup because you notice a spot on your arm is something else entirely.  It could be nothing, or it could be cancer.  "Better safe than sorry" is fine if you can afford the higher deductible for an office visit, but what if you can't afford it?  It's obviously not going to be better off for EVERYBODY as you suggested.
« Last Edit: September 10, 2009, 05:07:37 PM by DammitDan »
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Offline cleveland

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Re: Was anyone else deeply offended by the "You Lie!" outburst?
« Reply #55 on: September 10, 2009, 06:03:39 PM »
You guys crack me up!  :D :D :D

Yes, calling the president a liar during his speech was inappropriate.  Kind of like standing and clapping at the end of every one of Obama's sentences.  Both are cases of poor etiquette.  Frankly, I am offended at the standing and clapping.  I can't believe that anyone takes them seriously.  At least I think that the guy shouting actually believes in what he's saying.   

Am radio and FOX news is not any more full of garbage then MSN, CBS, NBC and ABC.  Fact is, they sell the stories in such a way that they will be watched.  Facts, common sense, and usefull information all take a back stage to putting on a good show.

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Offline tomkimberly

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Re: Was anyone else deeply offended by the "You Lie!" outburst?
« Reply #56 on: September 10, 2009, 06:12:14 PM »
Tom, I didn't assault any messenger. I confronted the accuser, you. Your claims about obama preclude you from being a messenger. But you are a good dancer, I mean just look at that sidestep! people who fly to one side or the other like you do, are part of what is wrong here. What ever happened to moderation? Go down the middle, not down party lines. Make your own decisions based on what is right for humanity, not for some corporation or fatcat. the sooner repubs and dems got knocked off their power base, the sooner we can get moving forward again.

Well you surely don't know me now do you? Why is your opinion better than mine? Just because you think you are confronting me does that mean you did? Should I be careful about wagging one of my fingers in your face otherwise you will bite it off? Obama supporters seem to have the attitude of all or nothing, either agree with us or become the enemy of all of us. Sheesh, both the major parties have their wacko's out in force these days.

Do you promise when you get as rich as Bill Gates you share all of your earning with everyone else even if it means your own family has to go without needed items? As far as what is best for humanity, who decides what that means? Most people are much more likely to support things that benefit them, not what benefits everyone else. You don't have to like it being this way however that is the way it is.


BTW, the only goverment health plan I want is the same one Congress gets.


Tom

Offline Uncle Ernie

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Re: Was anyone else deeply offended by the "You Lie!" outburst?
« Reply #57 on: September 10, 2009, 06:13:38 PM »
I'm sure most people who HAVE ibsurance are reasonably happy with it.

The last time I was in the hospital was for gallbladder surgery.  I was in intensive care for 18 days.  Every day, the surgeon would come in and wonder why I wasn't getting better.  Every day, someone would come in and pat my knee and ask how I was, then leave.  One night I fell off the bed and crawled out to the nurses station to tell them my lings were filling and I was drowning.  

Any first year nursing student knows that you go home a couple days after gallbladder surgery.  I wanted to sue the butt munch.  I had to get my hospital records at $1.00 a page (500 pages).  You need a professional witness to testify, only everyone knows if they testify against a doctor they'll never work again- so you get a retired professional withness who charges to read your case and render a secision only they don't really read your records because there are too many pages so they just take your money and let it be known you don't have a case.

And those people who come in and patted my knee?  Doctors who go up and down the halls on their lunch hours charging $85 consultation fees for every room they go in to.

I'd like to be a congressman.  That kind of crap doesn't happen to them.
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Offline sangyo soichiro

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Re: Was anyone else deeply offended by the "You Lie!" outburst?
« Reply #58 on: September 10, 2009, 06:33:25 PM »
OK, so here's an alternative plan.  Any comments?
PLEASE EVALUATE THIS PROPOSED SOLUTION.  PLEASE TRY TO BE OBJECTIVE AND NON-PARTISAN.  PLEASE LET ME KNOW WHAT YOU THINK -- CONSTRUCTIVELY

Once again, the solution is not to take away more control from the consumer (the patient, the taxpayer, us), and give it to some government bureaucrat.  Nor is it good to allow the insurance company bureaucrats to keep control, either!

I think the solution is to give the consumer more choice, and give them an incentive to try to reduce the costs THEMSELVES.

I think the problem of rising health care costs is primarily a result of patients not bothering to think about the costs at all because they don't think they have to.  Patients typically don't care, because they know that the insurance company is going to pay.  Patients don't ask simple questions that any normal consumer in any other market would ask like "how much will that cost?", "why is that so expensive?", "do I really need that?", and "isn't there a cheaper way?"

Let me try to illustrate this with an example:
If you walk into a supermarket and you can either buy lobster for $15/lb. or hamburger for $4/lb., how likely are you to buy lobster every night for dinner?

If, on the other hand, you knew that somebody else was paying for your groceries, you might be more inclined to buy the lobster, even though the hamburger may, in fact, have better nutritional value.  In fact, you might even be more likely to buy the lobster JUST BECAUSE you know that other people could buy it on YOUR insurance premium dollar, so "why not".  After all, it will only increase your insurance premium by a couple cents, when spread out among all the other shoppers.  Besides, those other shoppers are probably eating lobster on my insurance premiums, so why shouldn't I?

Now, let's extend that analogy to health care.  if we could incent the patients to be more efficient with their healthcare spending, we wouldn't need the bureaucrats at the insurance company or in the government to ration the care, and the cost would be much lower.  The patients would take responsibility for their own choices, and expect more from their doctors, drug companies, and diagnostic equipment, for the same money.

You might also find that people take better care of themselves because they don't want to spend more money on health issues later.

So, I'm thinking that increasing the deductibles is a major part of the solution.  First off, it will make the insurance premiums cheaper right off the bat.  Secondly, it will incent the patients to bargain with their medical providers and ask the difficult questions about necessity and price, rather than just saying, "sure, let's do it, what the hell".  Then, the costs are lower, the providers would have to compete for business (always a good thing), and the providers would strive to come up with better, and/or cheaper methods to provide the same service.

Now, remember the money saved on the insurance premiums because of the higher deductibles?  GIVE THAT MONEY TO THE EMPLOYEES in order to pay for their regular health care.  You know, the stuff that doesn't exceed the deductibles:  Regular check-ups, etc.  The only restriction should be that they can ONLY SPEND THAT MONEY ON HEALTH-RELATED EXPENSES.  If they manage to save enough, they can use it to get their teeth fixed, to get breast enhancements, whatever.  Let them accumulate the money year after year and save up for costly stuff that they want done like lap-band surgeries, whatever.

Getting the costs down will help with Medicare and Medicaid, and the VA Hospitals, too.  All the learned efficiency from trying to keep the patients happy will lead to cost reductions ACROSS THE BOARD, and will lead to doctors, drug companies, hospitals and medical device manufactures innovating more in order to generate more profit and to make the patients happier.

Sure, I haven't ironed out all the details, but this idea sounds a hell of a lot better to me than anything I'm hearing from that mess of a health care "reform" bill so far.

So, what do you think?  Does this start to meet the needs?  Does it encourage innovation?  Does it preserve our excellent health care system for everyone?  Does it make health care more accessible?  Does it make it better for EVERYBODY?

If the liberals are so concerned about the poor, then why the assumption that the government should control it?  Why not set up charities and take care of them directly?

You know why - when the economy tanks and the charity actually needs the money to do it's work the donations are not there. Thus, a crappy long term solution.

Ed, your proposal makes sound economic sense, but it supports the rich over the poor.  Let's use another analogy:

A rich man and a poor man buy the same model of car.  The car develops a high-pitched squeaking noise from the right front wheel.  The rich man immediately takes it in for the mechanic to look at it.  It turns out it's a wheel bearing which is going bad.  The wheel bearing is replaced for a hundred dollars and the car continues on for many thousand more miles.

The poor man puts it off and puts it off and puts it off because hey, it might get better and besides I can barely cover rent, I don't have the money to pay the mechanic to take a look at it right now.  He put it off so long that eventually the wheel stops spinning while on the way to work and he runs off into the ditch.  He has the car towed to the mechanic, the mechanic takes a look at it and has to replace the entire front end which costs many thousands of dollars.

Raising deductibles would work, but it places a heavier burden on those who would be less able to pay for it.  Putting off a car repair is one thing; putting off a checkup because you notice a spot on your arm is something else entirely.  It could be nothing, or it could be cancer.  "Better safe than sorry" is fine if you can afford the higher deductible for an office visit, but what if you can't afford it?  It's obviously not going to be better off for EVERYBODY as you suggested.


I don't know much about the health care issue, and I'm not taking anyone's side, but I do think I know a thing or two about poor people.

The chap in the above example probably can't afford to get his car checked because he buys the expensive $6/pack cigarettes.  He probably eats out a lot.  He probably buys lottery tickets by the handful in the hopes that he will never have to work again.  He probably has cable TV, and the expensive package at that.  His car he probably bought new instead of used.  And he probably has to have a new one every few years.  He probably buys T-bone steaks instead of hamburger.  I bet he has the newest video game X-box or whatever it is.  He probably has his heat turned too high in the winter, and his AC too cool in the summer.  He can't afford to have his car checked because he has that money already spent on nonsense (not his rent, in fact, he's probably behind on his rent).

In short, poor people are usually poor because they don't handle their money well.  They make poor decisions.  Conversely, wealthy (wealthy, not necessarily "rich") people usually make good financial decisions. 

It has little to do with income.  Don't believe me?  I am a graduate student.  I make $20,000 on a good year.  Yet I have saved about $30,000 in the bank.  I have a modest house that is bought and paid for.  I paid cash for it.  And I put myself through college (I worked for 8 years in a machine shop and saved my money so I could do this, while all my coworkers complained about their circumstances and wasted their money).  I currently have no debt and I'll never be in debt again.  Want to know what my parents did for a living?  My dad was a boiler operator at a hospital, and my mom drove school bus.  They tried to farm on the side (cows, sheep, pigs, chickens, you name it) which usually took away any profit they made from the other jobs.  My grandpa was a fruit farmer with only an 8th grade education.  These were not rich people.  And they didn't know much.  But they taught me how to save and not squander my money.

And I've had bad things happen to me too.  I had a drunk driver total my Jeep and I got a measly $735 for it (long story).  (It was worth a lot more, plus I had wanted to drive it for another 10 years.)  I was married to a woman that spent money like water (and will forever be in debt).  I went through a divorce.  And I have a chronic medical problem.  But I refused to let these things keep me down.

Like I said, I don't really know what is best for the health care issue, but poor people are poor because they do the things like what are in my example.  I see it all the time.
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Offline bucky katt

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Re: Was anyone else deeply offended by the "You Lie!" outburst?
« Reply #59 on: September 10, 2009, 06:47:20 PM »
yep, i made the bad decision of getting my neck and back broken 2 1/2 years ago. it's why i'm poor right now, it's also why it took me almost 2 years to do a 2 week restoration. i also made the bad decision to not pay nearly 400 dollars a month to get health insurance, leaving me nearly 500 thousand dollars in debt from all the hospital and emergency bills from that little incident. see, i'm not getting pissed as i realized a while back that these forums just arent worth getting my panties in a wad (now theres a scary mental pictures...........me in panties ;D) i just laugh at folks that make such nearsighted (did i use the right word) views on why people are poor. i #$%*ing HATE being so broke we're not sure whether we can pay the taxes on our house in time to keep it from being sold for back taxes (this house was paid for in cash in 1957 or 8 by my wifes dad) i still dont have any kind of insurance and because of the physical and some, i'm sure, mental problems caused by my injuries has kept me from being able to work a regular job (i tried 3 seperate times once i got out of the halo) because i'm in so much pain, and because i now take between 150 and 180 oxycontins a month to be able to function. whoops i said i wasnt going to let this get to me...............and i didnt, just felt the need to rant. now, back to the show.
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Re: Was anyone else deeply offended by the "You Lie!" outburst?
« Reply #60 on: September 10, 2009, 06:52:03 PM »
I have not read the whole thread and probably won't.....
I think the level of respect in this country is embarrassing, I disliked both bushes, but i liked Reagan, Clinton was a good speaker with questionable some behavior. Love them hate them they won the election and deserve a certain amount of respect......

I found the; I am not going to let little johnny listen to the President of the United States address the children of America much more offensive......what kind of kids will those wacko's raise. Are they afraid their kids might form an opinion that's not consistant with their own, wouldn't that be a travesty.

Lacking respect, that's what kind

Offline cleveland

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Re: Was anyone else deeply offended by the "You Lie!" outburst?
« Reply #61 on: September 10, 2009, 07:11:47 PM »

I found the; I am not going to let little johnny listen to the President of the United States address the children of America much more offensive......what kind of kids will those wacko's raise. Are they afraid their kids might form an opinion that's not consistant with their own, wouldn't that be a travesty.


This wacko didn't OK his boys to watch it because the contents of the speech were not released until the last minute.  That draws a red flag for me.  Why would there be a need to hide anything?  Tell the kids to study hard, stay in school, and be somebody.  If he would have just released the details, I would have been OK with my boys watching it.  It wont matter though, it's was a bit dry to keep the average 5 and 8 year olds attention.  :D




masonryman

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Re: Was anyone else deeply offended by the "You Lie!" outburst?
« Reply #62 on: September 10, 2009, 07:14:50 PM »
little paranoid don't ya think, bush gave nearly the same speech, would you have withheld your consent if your kids were in school then
« Last Edit: September 10, 2009, 07:16:52 PM by masonryman »

masonryman

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Re: Was anyone else deeply offended by the "You Lie!" outburst?
« Reply #63 on: September 10, 2009, 07:19:21 PM »
the dry part was my point, most kids that age would just see the prez and just for the first minute at that :-\

Offline Uncle Ernie

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Re: Was anyone else deeply offended by the "You Lie!" outburst?
« Reply #64 on: September 10, 2009, 07:28:28 PM »
Soichiro, way too many "probably"s in there.  Sorry.  Thanks for playing.
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Offline cleveland

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Re: Was anyone else deeply offended by the "You Lie!" outburst?
« Reply #65 on: September 10, 2009, 07:35:07 PM »
If he didn't release the contents of the speech ahead of time, then yes I would have withheld them.  In a lot of cases the difference between paranoid and prepared is opinion.  Trusting poloticians to do thier job is what got this country in this position to begin with. 


Offline DammitDan

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Re: Was anyone else deeply offended by the "You Lie!" outburst?
« Reply #66 on: September 10, 2009, 09:08:54 PM »
I don't know much about the health care issue, and I'm not taking anyone's side, but I do think I know a thing or two about poor people.

The chap in the above example probably can't afford to get his car checked because he buys the expensive $6/pack cigarettes.  He probably eats out a lot.  He probably buys lottery tickets by the handful in the hopes that he will never have to work again.  He probably has cable TV, and the expensive package at that.  His car he probably bought new instead of used.  And he probably has to have a new one every few years.  He probably buys T-bone steaks instead of hamburger.  I bet he has the newest video game X-box or whatever it is.  He probably has his heat turned too high in the winter, and his AC too cool in the summer.  He can't afford to have his car checked because he has that money already spent on nonsense (not his rent, in fact, he's probably behind on his rent).

In short, poor people are usually poor because they don't handle their money well.  They make poor decisions.  Conversely, wealthy (wealthy, not necessarily "rich") people usually make good financial decisions.  

It has little to do with income.  Don't believe me?  I am a graduate student.  I make $20,000 on a good year.  Yet I have saved about $30,000 in the bank.  I have a modest house that is bought and paid for.  I paid cash for it.  And I put myself through college (I worked for 8 years in a machine shop and saved my money so I could do this, while all my coworkers complained about their circumstances and wasted their money).  I currently have no debt and I'll never be in debt again.  Want to know what my parents did for a living?  My dad was a boiler operator at a hospital, and my mom drove school bus.  They tried to farm on the side (cows, sheep, pigs, chickens, you name it) which usually took away any profit they made from the other jobs.  My grandpa was a fruit farmer with only an 8th grade education.  These were not rich people.  And they didn't know much.  But they taught me how to save and not squander my money.

And I've had bad things happen to me too.  I had a drunk driver total my Jeep and I got a measly $735 for it (long story).  (It was worth a lot more, plus I had wanted to drive it for another 10 years.)  I was married to a woman that spent money like water (and will forever be in debt).  I went through a divorce.  And I have a chronic medical problem.  But I refused to let these things keep me down.

Like I said, I don't really know what is best for the health care issue, but poor people are poor because they do the things like what are in my example.  I see it all the time.

Soichiro, you are a testament to what this country needs.  I only wish more people had their head screwed on straight like you do.

Perhaps I misspoke in my reply to Ed.  I was trying to emphasize the fact that by NOT getting the car checked out earlier, it cost the person exponentially more down the road.  The man in my example could have likely afforded the initial $100 mechanics bill had it been a requirement, but there is always the issue of doubt.  What if there's nothing wrong with the car and I had to pay a $60 check-out fee anyway?  That seems like a "waste" of $60 that could be better spent on something else (be it cigarettes or rent or anything else).  What if the car is REALLY broken and it's going to cost me $1000?  Well that's just gonna put another strain on living for me.  I'd rather just wait and see and hope for the best.

This works fine until it turns out that the spot is cancer, and it's now going to cost the taxpayer an extra $200,000 in chemo treatments that could have easily been avoided with a simple biopsy and removal procedure.  Like President Obama said, healthcare is a "hidden" tax.  Everyone bears the burden of that one person's irresponsibility in not paying the deductible out-of-pocket for the initial checkup.

This is why a plan supporting higher deductibles favors the wealthy over the poor.  I doubt you're suggesting that financially irresponsible people (a.k.a. "the poor") should be left to die.  But the problem arises that if we raise everyone's deductibles, the financially irresponsible people WILL either die because they waited too long, or get so sick that it costs the average taxpayer exponentially more than it should have.
« Last Edit: September 10, 2009, 09:13:39 PM by DammitDan »
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Offline Spikeybike

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Re: Was anyone else deeply offended by the "You Lie!" outburst?
« Reply #67 on: September 10, 2009, 10:07:41 PM »

personally i prefer GN4 20w50 , it's really just a convenience thing , they sell it right there at Honda , i can get the filter at the same time... and it works in all my guns   it's a win win

Offline bucky katt

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Re: Was anyone else deeply offended by the "You Lie!" outburst?
« Reply #68 on: September 10, 2009, 10:30:53 PM »

personally i prefer GN4 20w50 , it's really just a convenience thing , they sell it right there at Honda , i can get the filter at the same time... and it works in all my guns   it's a win win
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Offline cleveland

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Re: Was anyone else deeply offended by the "You Lie!" outburst?
« Reply #70 on: September 11, 2009, 05:09:23 AM »
... and it works in all my guns   

*Gasp!*  You own guns?!!!



 :D

Offline Uncle Ernie

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Re: Was anyone else deeply offended by the "You Lie!" outburst?
« Reply #71 on: September 11, 2009, 06:00:49 AM »
I haven't seen GN4 in 20-50, only the 10-40. 
I'm trying Rotella in one of my bikes.  After reading all this, I'm wondering if being cheap is going to cost me down the line...

Oh- Hi-Flo oil filters, for Parts Unlimited.

And when one of my spots becomes cancer- somebody tell me how I get tax payers to pay for my treatment?   That's a pretty big wad of BS right there. 
Dude- your 8 layers are showing!

Offline edbikerii

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Re: Was anyone else deeply offended by the "You Lie!" outburst?
« Reply #72 on: September 11, 2009, 06:27:33 AM »
Put your curiosity to rest.  The study has been done, the methodology is published at the link I posted, alongside the results.  I am not surprised at the results, becaue they align perfectly with the statistics based on those with private insurance (the vast majority), and those that are on Medicaid, Medicare, [edit: I forgot VA] VA, and no insurance at all.  That tells us something, huh?

Once again, the "problem" isn't really that much of a problem in the first place.  According to Gallup polls 87% of Americans rate American health care as Excellent or Good.

http://www.gallup.com/poll/122663/Private-Public-Health-Plan-Subscribers-Rate-Plans-Similarly.aspx?CSTS=alert



Well, for once Ed has made a valid point. Healthcare is very good in this country. As a healthcare provider, I thank you.  :) We try very hard. The fact that people live much better and longer is proof that we are doing well. All over the world, not just here. It takes people from everywhere, diversity is the key, to figure out how to accomplish some of the things we do.

Now if he can just finally figure out that healthcare and health insurance/coverage are 2 different things.



I am curious if this many people actually are satisfied with current public health in America. Yes, modern medicine is great but getting it is a nightmare. Most people just tough it out and don't see a doctor when they should because it is so bad. After my wreck I had to wait two weeks to see a public doctor and all he said was "did you learn something?" and gave me #$%*ty pain killers that did nothing. Meanwhile I saw a private doctor and he fixed me right up without the use of drugs.

Can we look at the V.A. as an example for public health care? They managed to burn a crispy hole in my back while I was unconscious during a tonsillectomy with no excuse or reason. After that I got a letter stating that my private information was floating around somewhere lost so basically expect some identity theft in the future, which I ran into. I fear public health care.  
« Last Edit: September 11, 2009, 06:32:51 AM by edbikerii »
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Offline Inigo Montoya

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Re: Was anyone else deeply offended by the "You Lie!" outburst?
« Reply #73 on: September 11, 2009, 06:35:10 AM »
Quote
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Re: Was anyone else deeply offended by the "You Lie!" outburst?
« Reply #56 on: September 10, 2009, 09:12:14 pm »
   
Reply with quoteQuote
Quote from: vinmans brew on September 10, 2009, 04:49:58 pm
Tom, I didn't assault any messenger. I confronted the accuser, you. Your claims about obama preclude you from being a messenger. But you are a good dancer, I mean just look at that sidestep! people who fly to one side or the other like you do, are part of what is wrong here. What ever happened to moderation? Go down the middle, not down party lines. Make your own decisions based on what is right for humanity, not for some corporation or fatcat. the sooner repubs and dems got knocked off their power base, the sooner we can get moving forward again.

Well you surely don't know me now do you? Why is your opinion better than mine? Just because you think you are confronting me does that mean you did? Should I be careful about wagging one of my fingers in your face otherwise you will bite it off? Obama supporters seem to have the attitude of all or nothing, either agree with us or become the enemy of all of us. Sheesh, both the major parties have their wacko's out in force these days.

Do you promise when you get as rich as Bill Gates you share all of your earning with everyone else even if it means your own family has to go without needed items? As far as what is best for humanity, who decides what that means? Most people are much more likely to support things that benefit them, not what benefits everyone else. You don't have to like it being this way however that is the way it is.


BTW, the only goverment health plan I want is the same one Congress gets.

Never said my opinion was better, you just assume it, hust like you assume things about obama. Instead of assuming all the time, maybe use the brains god gave you. This is not a "jump to conclusions" game. But if you were to waggle your finger in my face, I wouldn't bite it off, being a stranger to me, how would I know if you didn't have something. No, if you were being a jerk, I would just knock you down.(oh here comes the tough guy speech here)

Also, I will never be bill gates, I wish, I sure wouldn't mind being a billionaire but then who would. As for what is best for humanity, obviously you are content to leave things as they are given your "You don't have to like it being this way however that is the way it is." line. I feel that we should not get shafted so banks can hold the judgement hammer over the common persons head. I feel we should have decent human rights. Oh crap, did that just make me a liberal?  ::)

Offline 333

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Re: Was anyone else deeply offended by the "You Lie!" outburst?
« Reply #74 on: September 11, 2009, 09:04:53 AM »
Nice try, Spikey.  I am so glad I'm on vacation.  I don't have to post my opinion.  Just wait till I get home, though.
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