Author Topic: $100 first project bike with problems (Read 10134 times)

cike · « **Reply #25 on:** October 15, 2009, 11:08:51 AM »

OK i checked the points today:
Both sets of points:
Not open when F mark was lined up. They were open when the T mark was lined up BUT not fully opened until about .300 past the T mark. (just on the left side of the spring pin located on the plate with the F & T marks)

set meter to 12V grounded one end and touched each side open points:
Points for 1-4
Top checked 9.8
Bottom checked 0

Points for 2-3
Top checked 10.0
Bottom checked 0

Mystic: I would assume that since my motor seems to be cranking fine that if I have a starter safety interlock it is working fine or it wouldn't even crank. Correct?
Also saw in your pic on the left side of the posts that you have a Ko. Here is a picture of the KO that I had a couple of years ago. Got it for free when the original owner past away. it only had 8059 miles on it. I Never had it running, just cleaned it up a little and sold it for $2400. Good money for a free bike but kinda wish I had kept it now. (motor was not locked, stored in very dry garage. even the pipes had very little signs of rust on them. Had no gas tank, this one is just sitting there for looks)

cike · « **Reply #26 on:** October 15, 2009, 11:13:55 AM »

sorry didn't get pic of bike. here it is:

Ogri · « **Reply #27 on:** October 15, 2009, 01:14:46 PM »

Your points are getting power so that's good. It sounds like someone has timed the engine to the T mark rather than the F mark. Either that or the heels of the points that contact the cam are worn.

What is important is the moment that the points are open to an extent that no electricity can flow between them, it is at that moment that the coils deliver the spark to the spark-plugs.

First set the gap at the points to the specified amount, this is set when the points are at their maximum open-ness; a little way past the point at which they open.

Then time the 1&4 points to open at 'F', by turning the whole circular assembly. I find the best way is to insert a cigarette paper (ZigZag, Rizla etc.) between the points. Turn the engine until the points close. Very gently pull on the paper, without tearing it. Turn the engine at the same time. You might need a helper to gently turn the kickstart or to put he bike in gear and turn the rear wheel. The moment the points open the paper will pull free.

When 1&4 contact breaker is set move on to 2&3. This time you adjust by moving the actual contact breakers - DO NOT MOVE THE CIRCULAR ASSEMBLY.

This should get you close enough for the bike to fire up. If it doesn't you might need to check valve clearances (remember that the last guy to work on it might have set the ignition wrong, he might have done the valves wrong too.)

BUT,, all this is pretty useless if you're not getting a spark at the plugs. Have you tried removing the spark plug caps, and holding the bared end of the HT lead within 1/4" of the cylinder head? The problem might be the caps.

cike · « **Reply #28 on:** October 16, 2009, 11:42:22 AM »

went out to set the points today as you said. Turned out that when checking with papers (first pack of rolling papers I've bought in almost 20 years) that the points are just starting to open when the F is lined up. With my older eyes I wasn't able to see that before when I was just going on a visual check.
points gap on 1-4 checked .012, 2-3 checked .014. manual says .012-.016, so they are within spec.
Point faces are clean.
tried checking for power when the points were closed. Had reading on top point but still none on the bottom point, even with them touching. (HUMM...condencers maybe??) Don't understand why they would not be transferring power when touching, That makes no sense to me. Could they be glazed or something? I cleaned them with a very small fine file, and they look very good. No pitting. Followed the blue and yellow (I think that was the colors) back to where the each have connections behind the oil tank. took connections apart and cleaned. Still no difference.
Pulled the #4 cap off of the plug wire (some copper wire showing) and placed it about .250 away from engine and had no spark. Didn't try any of the other wires.
Thinking about pulling the coils off of my CB500 and trying them. (sold this bike on Ebay, but guy never paid) Not sure if they are compatable??? This bike has been sitting for about 20 years not running, So this would be a shot in the dark at best since I don't even know if they are any good or not.

Starting to get frustrated... I wish I knew more about what I am doing. Will only be new to this once though, already learned alot more than I did when I started.
Wanted to say thanks for those of you that are offering advice (thanks Orgi) With advise from here it makes me think more along the lines of "when it starts" instead of "if it will start" If anyone else wants to offer ideas Orgi's fingers could probably use a break (don't stop though orgi... your fingers will get stronger)

Side note to Orgi: Been following your project, Love the seat GREAT JOB, think the shocks and rear fender (love the tucked tail light) look great too. What kind of header is that? Looks like the one on my bike, but mine is black. can't wait to see it finished!

Thanks and keep the thoughts coming, I'm getting itchy to hear this thing start before it gets to cold to work on it anymore this season. (39 degrees high today)

Ogri · « **Reply #29 on:** October 16, 2009, 12:43:57 PM »

There really should be power to both sides of the points when they're closed & ignition on. That's gone to the top of the list of likely causes.
The only thing I can think of is that the points haven't been assembled correctly and are grounding through the top one ( the one that moves,) or it's bad condensers. This would explain everything.

At this stage, if it was my 'bike, I'd remove No.1 or No.4 plug.
Insert it into the correct spark plug cap and ground it to the engine. Rest it so that it stays there on its own. Ideally in a shady area.
Take a piece of wire, long enough to reach the points. Ground it to the engine somewhere, probably best to form a ring in the end and use an engine screw to hold it tight.
Touch grounded wire to upper half of OPEN 1&4 points (the part that moves).
Turn on ignition and set kill switch to Run.
Observe spark plug electrode as you break the connection to the points by pulling the ground wire away smartly. There might be a sizeable bluey white spark; this is because you've removed the condenser from the equation.
You are now the contact breaker and the spark plug should spark. If it does then you've found the problem - incorrectly grounded points or duff condenser. I've read recently on another forum that even new condensers can be bad, one guy had to buy three before he got one that actually worked.

Thanks for your kind words about my bike, getting there slowly! The new exhaust is a no-namer from Japan, kinda annoying not knowing what it is but it lends it an air of mystery if nothing else.

cike · « **Reply #30 on:** October 16, 2009, 01:02:53 PM »

Thanks ogri
Wife wants to go to dinner so it looks like I'm done for tonight. i'll try this tomorrow.
Not sure if you can tell anything from this but, here is a pic of my points. (if I did this right)

Got a Garage... renting from neighbor $20/month. not much room with 4 bikes in it, but better then working outside.

Also a picture of my baby: 1999 street king..Rosd king-Street king combo.

THANKS AGAIN!!

cike · « **Reply #31 on:** October 16, 2009, 01:04:51 PM »

guess I didnt do it right.

mystic_1 · « **Reply #32 on:** October 16, 2009, 01:40:13 PM »

Quote from: Ogri on October 16, 2009, 12:43:57 PM

There really should be power to both sides of the points when they're closed & ignition on. That's gone to the top of the list of likely causes.

Well sorta, the "bottom" part of each point is connected to ground, so when the points are closed all the electricity is flowing into the ground point instead of through your meter.

This is why, when using a passive test light to set static timing, the light is on when the points are open and off when the points are closed.

mystic_1

Ogri · « **Reply #33 on:** October 16, 2009, 02:13:26 PM »

EDITTED: I posted earlier that the green condenser wires shouldn't be touching the blue and yellow power wires. I'm not so sure now. I've looked at basic wiring diagrams for contact breakers and your set-up seems correct.

Here's a terrible pic of my points that I've just taken. Note the brown, insulative washers that I thought kept the wires apart. I realise now they stop the power from the blue/yellow wires from going straight to ground permanently. The bolt holding them all together acts as a conductor joining the blue/yellow to the green condensor wire.

However, if your condensers were fried they would act as conductors and channel power straight to ground. But both condensers?? Seems a bit unlikely.

Could use a little help here from other board users, is Cike's wiring right or wrong ?

When you spin the motor with ignition on do you get big fat sparks at the contact points ?

It might be worth making sure the cam and heels of the points are clean. Use methylated spirits or electrical contact cleaner, NOT WD40. There's a very small chance that there's a build up of conductive gunk.

(Sweeeet garage - proper bargain that is!)

Hush · « **Reply #34 on:** October 16, 2009, 07:21:36 PM »

Bike condensers are like a rolled up piece of tin foil paper, if they get fried they usually short out and go open circuit rather than gground out the system.

cike · « **Reply #35 on:** October 17, 2009, 08:56:57 AM »

Way to much beer last night, slept in and just getting started for today.
Points are sparking. Not sure if it is a big or little spark, having never done this before I have nothing to compare it too.
Does this mean that the condensers are good? (can go get a new set if you think I might still need them)
Going to get some electrical cleaner to make sure the cam and heels are as clean as possible and getting good contact.
Forgot to add on my last post yesterday that I changed the coils out with the ones from the CB500. The plug wires seemed to hold much better in the plug caps. Still no spark. Was this ok to change or should I change them back?
Will check with running grounded wire to points when I get back and post results.
Thanks guys I be completely lost without you!

cike · « **Reply #36 on:** October 17, 2009, 09:49:07 AM »

WE HAD A SPARK!

So if I'm thinking correctly from your earlier post either bad condensers or bad grounded points. right?
Going to clean wire connections on points to see if I get a better ground.
Can I run an extra ground wire to the points to see if it works before buying condensers?

it will start...it will start...I know it will...As a wise man once said. "It'll run..it's just playing with you"

mystic_1 · « **Reply #37 on:** October 17, 2009, 10:03:14 AM »

So long as the coils you're using have the same resistance rating across both the primary leads (small wires) and the secondary leads (spark plug wires) then they'll work fine.

Points wiring looks OK to me btw.

Sounds like your timing and points gap is good, however:

Quote from: cike on October 16, 2009, 11:42:22 AM

tried checking for power when the points were closed. Had reading on top point but still none on the bottom point, even with them touching. (HUMM...condencers maybe??) Don't understand why they would not be transferring power when touching, That makes no sense to me. Could they be glazed or something? I cleaned them with a very small fine file, and they look very good. No pitting. Followed the blue and yellow (I think that was the colors) back to where the each have connections behind the oil tank. took connections apart and cleaned. Still no difference.

I think your problem lies here. Verify that your points are passing current when closed, and not passing current when open.

What sort of tester are you using, a volt/ohm meter, or a test light?

With a volt/ohm meter, disconnect the points wiring, re-tighten the screw, and clip your positive lead to the screw. Ignition off. Clip your negative lead to a ground point, or to the screw on the other side of the point (spring screw). Set your meter for Ohms and rotate the motor. You should have infinite ohms when the points are open, and near zero ohms (less than, say, 5 or 10 ohms) when the points are closed.

With a test light, leave the points wiring where it is, hook one lead from the light to the points wiring and the other to a ground point. Ignition and kill switch on. Rotate motor, light should be on when the points are open. and off when the points close.

hth
mystic_1

Edit: i see you have some spark now, still gonna post this for future reference.

cike · « **Reply #38 on:** October 17, 2009, 10:51:37 AM »

The spark I had was when I had the #4 plug pulled and took a grounded wire to the open side of the points then removed wire. plug sparked

tried the test that mystic said with a test light. points 2-3 had light on when open and off when closed. points 1-4 light stayed on when open and closed.

looked closely at point faces 1-4 with a flashlight and they don't look like they are making a good flat connection. (if connecting at all) If they are not connecting it is close enough that a rolling paper won't fit between them.

mystic_1 · « **Reply #39 on:** October 17, 2009, 11:39:24 AM »

Quote from: cike on October 17, 2009, 10:51:37 AM

tried the test that mystic said with a test light. points 2-3 had light on when open and off when closed. points 1-4 light stayed on when open and closed.

Good! Making progress. Your test with the ground wire, btw, was good thinking. If you hadn't thought of it yourself I'd have suggested it next. Remember that one for future use.

Light stays on = points are never making electrical contact. (btw, light always off = point is grounded)

Even if the point faces are crooked, they should be making SOME contact. Try pushing the point closed with your finger, does the light go out?

First thing I'd do is re-set the gap on that point, it's possible the gap is too large and therefore the point is never closing.

Assuming that's good, are these points new or used? New points are fairly inexpensive. If you replace them, get new condensors too. Sometimes you can find them all in one box in a "tune up kit". Research points here on the site, quality varies between manufacturer.

Meanwhile, I'd dress the points faces if they're not square. What sort of file are you using? Clean the points with contact cleaner or brake cleaner afterwards, the oils from your skin are enough to throw off the resistance. To see if they're clean, set the points to fully closed, open it with your finger, and insert an un-laminated business card or other similarly thick paper (not too thick). Let the points close and then draw the card out. If the point faces leave streaks on the paper, they were dirty. This process also cleans them though, so repeat until you have no more streaks.

Your mission is to have point continuity when closed and none when open. Let us know how it goes.

mystic_1

Ogri · « **Reply #40 on:** October 17, 2009, 12:25:19 PM »

Quote from: cike on October 17, 2009, 09:49:07 AM

WE HAD A SPARK!

Can I run an extra ground wire to the points to see if it works before buying condensers?

No.

If an extra ground wire was connected it would permanently ground the points. The coils release their built up energy to the spark plugs only when there's an interuption to the electricity's flow through them; that occurs when the points open. There's nowhere else for the electricity to go so it goes to the spark plugs and (grudgingly in my mind) jumps the gap.

It might be worth making sure your spark plugs are clean (use a wire brush) and correctly gapped.

NGK D8ES 0.024" -0.028" / 0.6mm - 0.7mm I'd set them to the lower values. If you have DR8ESLs chuck them away, the R stands for resistor and while they'll work, non-resistor types will work better.

EDIT: An interesting and informative discussion about condensers: http://www.smokstak.com/forum/showthread.php?t=21175

cike · « **Reply #41 on:** October 17, 2009, 01:23:26 PM »

redressed point face and reset gaps to about .012. (on both sets) Now I know what a big spark looks like. Looks like the points on 1-4 might be about shot. was going to rob the one from the cb500, they looked about new but the screw was stripped out and I couldn't get it out. Only made it worse. So I used the old one and had to adjust it until it was about out or room to adjust.
TIP: don't forget to turn key off before inserting feeler gauge. (I'm a dumb *ss)
Big spark now at points. test light on when open, off when closed on both sets.
Tested #4 plug and WHOO F#%N WHOO i HAVE SPARK!
Ran rigged up gas tank and tried to start.
Didn't start but tried to. was leaking gas I think from my shabby tank design. and the battery sounded like it was getting low. Pulled the fuses except for the main and put battery on the charger.
twice I thought it was going to fire.
I'm pumped now..I know it is getting close.
Will try to get back on it tonight, but may be tomorrow before I get to try it. (wife wants to spend some time with me, why? I don't know..I wouldn't want to spend time with me if I didn't have to)
I'll let you know what happens.
thank you thank you thank you....have I said thank you yet?
Keep your fingers crossed.

mystic_1 · « **Reply #42 on:** October 17, 2009, 01:36:58 PM »

You are this close: --->| |<---

mystic_1

Ogri · « **Reply #43 on:** October 17, 2009, 02:01:55 PM »

Is it fresh gas you're using ? It really helps to have straight-from-the-pump stuff.

mystic_1 · « **Reply #44 on:** October 17, 2009, 02:08:58 PM »

Quote from: Ogri on October 17, 2009, 02:01:55 PM

Is it fresh gas you're using ? It really helps to have straight-from-the-pump stuff.

+1

mystic_1

cike · « **Reply #45 on:** October 18, 2009, 09:56:23 AM »

Getting a crash course in points. They work backward from the way I thought they did. I thought that they had no power until contacting. See I am learning.
Went out last night and tried to start again. This time I put a clamp on the gas line from my made up tank so it wouldn't leak..ran gas..still leaking out of #1 carb...pulled drain screws 1-4 had plenty of gas, 2 had a little gas..3 had no gas...pulled carbs off and removed floats. took out the holder that hold the float needles and cleaned filters 3 was clocked solid. Put them back together and ran gas while on bench. #1 was still leaking then overflow tubes started leaking gas (don't know from which carbs) decided to check float height and WOW they were way way off. wish I had taken a picture. The float tab on #1 was on the wrong side of the bracket. put them back together and tested on bench. NO LEAKS. yeah
Installed carbs and tried to start ran battery dead in no time. I was using the electric start because of my fancy kickstand (paint can) as seen in pics below. I put the charger on and got to thinking about the timing.
What I dumb*ss I am (again) put rolling paper in points and when it puled out my mark was between the F & T. (my fault) I should have went back and read Ogri's post before setting my gap. I had set it by rotating the points as you would by doing the timing. (another thing learned..won't do again) anyway back to the story..
with timing still off mark decided to kick the bike instead of electric start. (oh yeah..got fresh gas) 12-or 13 kicks later and VAAARRROOOMMMM she started.
Blew carbon/soot out of the header about 10 feet or so (see pic below) had black smoke comming out of exhaust too. But it ran. All 4 exhaust pipes hot.
Reset timing today and fired her back up (have to get my oil changed) Only ran it for a few seconds but had gray smoke coming out of exhaust. BEWARE SCARY WORD COMMING UP....pods are not on bike yet. Could that make a difference???
Also could hear some noise from motor....thinking cam chain...not a knock.
When I got the bike the exhaust screws were way loose some 3 complete turns to tighten..thinking that might have had something to do with the carbon build-up. I'm sure they didn't come loose from the bike sitting..
So here is where I am at right now..taking a break to go watch the football game.
At this point I still have less than $300 in bike so I think that things are going pretty well so far...Any thoughts?

Ogri · « **Reply #46 on:** October 18, 2009, 10:52:06 AM »

That's great news Cike! Well done for sticking with it.

At this stage I wouldn't worry too much about the grey smoke; unless it's of 'smoke-screen' proportions.

I'd wait 'til it was idling steadily at operating temperature before passing judgement on what's coming out the exhaust. It's been sitting for a while, there's all sorts of crap in there that now wants to get out and the previous owner may well have squirted oil down the spark plugs holes to preserve the cylinders.
The lack of air filters on the carbs would usually cause poor starting, poor idling and throttle response - unless the carbs had been tuned to run without them.

Did you say you had a timing light ? I'd fine tune the ignition timing next.

Then check the valve clearances, then set the idle mixture screws to suit the pod filters so you get a nice steady, low idle. Then synchronise the carbs; which will help quieten the camchain noise. Don't worry about the noise, it's probably quite normal. Only worry when the neighbors complain about the clacking noise.

mystic_1 · « **Reply #47 on:** October 18, 2009, 02:50:15 PM »

Quote from: cike on October 18, 2009, 09:56:23 AM

12-or 13 kicks later and VAAARRROOOMMMM she started.

Priceless! You'll remember that sound for a long time.

Next up, a full maintenance sweep. Change all fluids and perform entire tune-up process in proper order (cam chain, valve clearances, points gap [done], timing [done], float heights [done], carb sync, idle tuning) and also freshen up as many of the electrical contacts as you can.

After that start looking towards the chassis. Check all bearings and suspension bushings, change fork oil, inspect and service chain and sprockets, etc.

cheers
mystic_1

cike · « **Reply #48 on:** October 18, 2009, 04:06:10 PM »

thanks guys,
not sure if this was an ok way to set timing but what I did was to use test light. set to where light came on when set on F mark.
don't have timing light or syncronizer (not sure how to spell) have a friend though (guy I bought my Harley from) that used to have a 750 chopper. He said that he thinks that he still has a set of the old mercury syncronizers that I can have... will wait a few days to see if he finds them.
sweet bike, He bought new in 74/75 and on the way home he took it to a shop to have made into a chopper. said he had about $2500 in bike after being chopped. Including bike. Pics are way cool..would love to have that old bike!!!

Mystic: "change all fluids" besides oil, what do I need to change?? No front brake at this time (froze) Does oil run motor, trans, and clutch on these old bikes?..remember I'm new to these bikes. besides oil, and filter what should i change?

What oil are you guys running? seems like I remember reading somewhere when doing "search on this site" that I should not run synthetic, (causes clutch to slip) and some other type of oil but can't remember what it was.

guess valves and cam chain is next on the list.

Here is a pic of the bike with the CB500 tank on it. I think that it looks pretty cool. (not seated all the way in pic) Kinda gives it a 50's style look with the skinny tank. Problems are that the petcock hits the carbs and would have to be moved. Also hits the two support rails on the frame. i could dent the bottom side of the tank to clear rails (doesn't need dented to much to clear) this tank is very clean inside with no dents. My only thought against trying this is that if it doesn't work I have destroyed a nice old tank for nothing. I'm sure a lot of people wanting to restore these old bike would want to kick my butt for that.
Was thinking that I could drill a hole in the back right side of tank. (by seat) and weld a nut over it, then screw in a harley type petcock. Plug old petcock holes. would have no reserve this way though. Bad idea to do this??? Not planning on doing long rides on this bike, just kinda a bar hopper. Not worried about no reserve.
May end up just getting old 750 tank (as it will fit) not sure at this point what way I want to go with this bike. (not Cafe) maybe chop or rat.
Thinking about using a piece of diamond plate steel for a seat..may try making a padded seat (have a plate to use for a seat pan) After seeing ogri's seat though, i don't think I could make something that measures up.
Getting ahead of myself I know.
Bike would have never made it to the starting stage without you guys...would take you each out for some beers if we didn't live across the world from each other..If ok I'll make you a deal though...when i take this for a ride down the road I'll make a donation to this site to help keep it going. Sound ok?

Ogri · « **Reply #49 on:** October 18, 2009, 05:34:27 PM »

The static test light setting of the ignition timing should be fine, for now. I've had bikes that started on the button and ran superbly but when the timing was checked it was found to be 1/4" early or late. If you're going to ride it hard then perfect timing is a lot more important, I tend to treat my engines with kid gloves.

Your buddy's mercury column synchronisers would be very helpful, it's worth reading up on the process though, it's fairly straightforward but there are techniques involved.

Your engine oil does indeed lubricate the clutch and gearbox (transmission) as well as the engine. It's okay to use synthetic so long as it is synthetic designed for a motorcycle. Car oil has slippery additives in it that affect our wet clutches, causing them to slip.
IMHO, frequency of oil changes is more important than buying the perfect oil (which doesn't exist anyway).

Fork oil will probably need changing. Brake fluid in front brake.

Regarding the tank, I'd give it some thought before bashing dents, drilling holes or welding. There's no rush. It really helps if you have a clear image in your mind of what you want the completed bike to look like. The CB500 tank looks pretty good, but if you want the bike to have a customised, 'outlaw', 'barhopper' look, it might come across as being a bit..'Honda Inc.' Personally I like the original bulbous CB750 tanks, they've a very classy, period look. But they lend themselves to the 'cafe' look rather more than the 'chopper' look.

A donation to the site would be a very cool thing to do. Kudos.

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$100 first project bike with problems

Author Topic: $100 first project bike with problems (Read 10134 times)