Author Topic: Finally !! The RICK HOCKING Champion Framed 750 Flattracker!!  (Read 7824 times)

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Offline 754

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Finally !! The RICK HOCKING Champion Framed 750 Flattracker!!
« on: October 18, 2009, 04:13:54 PM »
Well I have been searching 3 yrs or more, for even a pic of this beast.. finally I found it..
 A buddy of mine saw this bike on display at Racecrafters in LA, around 1975ish..

 Hope this works,

http://www.flattrack.com/index.php?option=com_fireboard&Itemid=46&func=view&id=60165&catid=34
Maker of the WELDLESS 750 Frame Kit
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My next bike will be a ..ANFOB.....

It's All part of the ADVENTURE...

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Lost quite a few CB 750's along the way
69 z50
OHV 200..(Trail 90)



Offline Alan F.

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Re: Finally !! The RICK HOCKING Champion Framed 750 Flattracker!!
« Reply #1 on: October 18, 2009, 04:56:48 PM »
Let's include those photos in this thread before the link begins to fail....
-Alan
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Offline 754

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Re: Finally !! The RICK HOCKING Champion Framed 750 Flattracker!!
« Reply #2 on: October 18, 2009, 05:03:41 PM »
Thats it, ..I am going to build one... ;D

 cool bike eh.. ;D
Maker of the WELDLESS 750 Frame Kit
dodogas99@gmail.com

My next bike will be a ..ANFOB.....

It's All part of the ADVENTURE...

73 836cc.. Green, had it for 3 decades!!
Lost quite a few CB 750's along the way
69 z50
OHV 200..(Trail 90)



Offline greasy j

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Re: Finally !! The RICK HOCKING Champion Framed 750 Flattracker!!
« Reply #3 on: October 18, 2009, 05:58:27 PM »
yes, very cool!



Offline bucky katt

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Re: Finally !! The RICK HOCKING Champion Framed 750 Flattracker!!
« Reply #4 on: October 18, 2009, 06:01:29 PM »
that is a sexy looking exhaust, is that a yoshi?
Of all God's creatures there is only one that cannot be made the slave of the lash. That one is the cat. If man could be crossed with the cat it would improve man, but it would deteriorate the cat.
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Offline bwaller

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Re: Finally !! The RICK HOCKING Champion Framed 750 Flattracker!!
« Reply #5 on: October 18, 2009, 06:32:11 PM »
Well done Frank, it is cool to see that. Do you remember how they did?

Safe to say the combination didn't take flattracking by storm.  ;)



Offline mrbreeze

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Re: Finally !! The RICK HOCKING Champion Framed 750 Flattracker!!
« Reply #6 on: October 18, 2009, 07:37:23 PM »
Holy sh$t!!!!!!! What is that .......like 68 tooth sprocket????
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Offline Big Bob

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Re: Finally !! The RICK HOCKING Champion Framed 750 Flattracker!!
« Reply #7 on: October 18, 2009, 08:58:49 PM »
I ain't saying where this is.......








Offline 754

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Re: Finally !! The RICK HOCKING Champion Framed 750 Flattracker!!
« Reply #8 on: October 18, 2009, 11:33:46 PM »
Geez Bob, is that real, or a modded frame?... :o

Only a few built in any form.. with CB 750..(never heard of a Trackmaster...yet!!

 Old Scrambler and I got too see a real TZ 750 TRACKMASTER at the Bonneville GP, it was 35 YEARS in the making, and only one known!!...(PLEASE..PLEASE post a pic, OS)

 To fill everyone in,  around 74ish a few people built multis for the mile (&maybe smaller tracks).. Roberts  ended up on a TZ Yamaha and went so freaking fast that.. well they got outlawed ALL of the multis, either during or right after the first season.. :o

 The TZs and Hockings bike were Champion Framed,built by Doug Schwerma.
 Other multis that ran, Suzi WaterBuffalos, Kawi triples.... very cool shortlived adventure..

 BTW Roberts Yamaha made somewhere around 150 -170 hp, he rode it on the outer edge of the mile and was laying rubber most of the way.

 Exciting times, for sure..
Maker of the WELDLESS 750 Frame Kit
dodogas99@gmail.com

My next bike will be a ..ANFOB.....

It's All part of the ADVENTURE...

73 836cc.. Green, had it for 3 decades!!
Lost quite a few CB 750's along the way
69 z50
OHV 200..(Trail 90)



Offline IHWillys

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Re: Finally !! The RICK HOCKING Champion Framed 750 Flattracker!!
« Reply #9 on: October 19, 2009, 11:27:48 AM »
...
 BTW Roberts Yamaha made somewhere around 150 -170 hp, he rode it on the outer edge of the mile and was laying rubber most of the way.

 Exciting times, for sure..

He won Indy '75 on it and the AMA banned it a few weeks later.  Afterward, Roberts said something to the affect of "They don't pay me enough to ride that thing".  Later, he described how he had to to get it slowed down for the corners by pitching it sideways at nearly 150 mph.

Ken



Offline bwaller

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Re: Finally !! The RICK HOCKING Champion Framed 750 Flattracker!!
« Reply #10 on: October 19, 2009, 11:38:30 AM »
Some of us got to see KR do a couple "hot"  parade laps on that TZ at the Indy mile in August during the MotoGP weekend. He surprised me with his pace the crazy buggar, brass balls on that lad.  ;D Must be nuts riding that thing on the dirt.




Offline 754

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Re: Finally !! The RICK HOCKING Champion Framed 750 Flattracker!!
« Reply #11 on: October 19, 2009, 11:46:34 AM »
I have the Cycle World? article at the shop, on Roberts riding it way back in the day. I think it is from around 78ish.. They also got a hold of Steve Bakers Champion TZ and he let them test-ride it and they gave their impressions.. pretty cool stuff.

 For General info, not too long after these 4s were run , the owner of Champion frames died, and they were no more.. Aguy here in town, bought a Champion frame brand new in about 74 or 75.. for his XL 350, he still has it..nice frame..
Maker of the WELDLESS 750 Frame Kit
dodogas99@gmail.com

My next bike will be a ..ANFOB.....

It's All part of the ADVENTURE...

73 836cc.. Green, had it for 3 decades!!
Lost quite a few CB 750's along the way
69 z50
OHV 200..(Trail 90)



srook

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Re: Finally !! The RICK HOCKING Champion Framed 750 Flattracker!!
« Reply #12 on: October 19, 2009, 06:16:22 PM »
The legend of Roberts and the TZ has jumped the shark.  There were multi cylinders bikes on the mile well before the TZ700/750 ever showed up.  BSA and Triumph had used the 3 cylinder motor in specialty framed trackers as soon as the rules allowed (1970).  The TZ produced about 125 hp.  Roberts wasn't pitching it sideways at 150 for sure.  The rule change wasn't the reason the CB750 didn't succeed on the mile either.  Like the 3 cylinder brits it was too wide.  The motor had to sit high in the frame to keep it from grounding in the turns which made it handle poorly.  The CB didn't have the low end power of the British and American twins either.  Kel Carruthers (Roberts builder) spearheaded the move to ban the TZ from the mile.  Roberts didn't destroy the competition at Indy 1975.  He was at the rear and barely won on the final straight.  He raced the bike two more times and didn't do very well.  The TZ was a failure.  If it wasn't banned it would have been abandoned just like the CB750 milers.  The video of the Indy race has been pulled from youtube but it is funny to watch as KR goes wide in the turns.  He was totally off the line and barely pulled out the victory.
Scott



Offline Sam Green Racing

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Re: Finally !! The RICK HOCKING Champion Framed 750 Flattracker!!
« Reply #13 on: October 19, 2009, 06:41:14 PM »
It would have been cool if posted in the Hipo and racing forum Frank. ::) ::) ::) but real cool pics and an awsome bike. 8) 8) 8)

While we're on about Japanese bikes being banned because they were to fast, does anyone know which was the first Japanese bike to be banned from racing in the states?

Sam. ;)
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Offline Retro Rocket

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Re: Finally !! The RICK HOCKING Champion Framed 750 Flattracker!!
« Reply #14 on: October 19, 2009, 07:43:12 PM »
Quote
The motor had to sit high in the frame to keep it from grounding in the turns which made it handle poorly.
How could this be, they ran no alternator on the left making it flush, you'd have to drop it to hit the motor on the ground.?

Mick
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Offline kos

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Re: Finally !! The RICK HOCKING Champion Framed 750 Flattracker!!
« Reply #15 on: October 20, 2009, 09:50:24 AM »
Thanks Bob...you let my latest project out onto the net!@%#*&@??!



Just kidding, thanks, as I am looking for help with finding anyone who has any pictures or information on any Trackmaster framed flattracker, ever completed that had a SOHC CB750 engine in it. Please contact me. mark@m3racing.com

The photos on Flattracker.com were posted by myself and are all I have in my collection of interesting CB750 racers.

Also, Kenny Robert's ran the replica of his TZ Champion flat tracker at the Indy mile in late August. He was quoting the HP at 100 RWHP. I would not want to argue with the King. And as the davidsons at the time might have had 72-75 RWHP he did have an advantage. Also corner speeds quoted by the King were in the area of 120-125 not 150mph as someone was quoting on this forum.

Let's kep it real.


Mark McGrew
M3Racing USA


PS: I do know where the original Champion CB750 flat tracker is. Write to me off forum, if you want/need information. mark@m3racing.com



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Offline shiznits75

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Re: Finally !! The RICK HOCKING Champion Framed 750 Flattracker!!
« Reply #16 on: October 20, 2009, 09:56:34 AM »
the original "drifting" ;D


Let's include those photos in this thread before the link begins to fail....
-Alan



Offline leaderbean

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Re: Finally !! The RICK HOCKING Champion Framed 750 Flattracker!!
« Reply #17 on: October 20, 2009, 05:17:21 PM »
Sweet thread.  I don't know much about racing but love those old pics.  I took one of them and worked some photoshop magic to make it to fit my desktop (900x1440 pixels).  Thought I'd share.  I can make other sizes if necessary.  I kind of wanted to blow it up to poster size.  I'd like to see that on my wall.

http://i336.photobucket.com/albums/n337/leaderbean/flat_track_750.jpg
Is it summer yet?



srook

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Re: Finally !! The RICK HOCKING Champion Framed 750 Flattracker!!
« Reply #18 on: October 20, 2009, 10:51:38 PM »
"How could this be, they ran no alternator on the left making it flush, you'd have to drop it to hit the motor on the ground."

Not really.  The trackers run steep head angles with the motor as low as it can sit in the frame without grounding.  The CB750 motor sans alterator is simply too wide.  Its the width of the cylinder bank that was the problem.  It forced the motor to sit high in the frame which isn't ideal for sliding the rear end while having the motor pull the bike through the turn.  It makes the bike want to tip rather than slide causing the rider to compensate.  All counter productive to speed.  The other issue is the powerband.  The CB needs revs to make power.  The British twins and the XR750 pull like freight trains from about 1500 RPMs.  Plus they are skinny, something the CB and British triples were not

This is what we are talking about for lean angles


Scott



Offline 754

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Re: Finally !! The RICK HOCKING Champion Framed 750 Flattracker!!
« Reply #19 on: October 20, 2009, 11:28:28 PM »
Is that Romero?
 fine form..

 You can see in them other pics, that the Honda motor is at about 45 degrees, and the cases are close to the ground, if the cover was on, it would be hitting. Sure it is limited in lean angle.. but, it would have been exciting had they kept it going, & maybe had a 4 cylinder  4 stroke class..

 Cant help but think ....it would have brought out more spectators.. ones that owned street versions of the track bikes...

 .. Think of what coulda been, 754s, Z-2s, GS 750s, ..... :o
Maker of the WELDLESS 750 Frame Kit
dodogas99@gmail.com

My next bike will be a ..ANFOB.....

It's All part of the ADVENTURE...

73 836cc.. Green, had it for 3 decades!!
Lost quite a few CB 750's along the way
69 z50
OHV 200..(Trail 90)



Offline Peters1983

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Re: Finally !! The RICK HOCKING Champion Framed 750 Flattracker!!
« Reply #20 on: October 21, 2009, 02:10:52 AM »
love this piece of history to even think that a 750 flat tracker was even used is kinda crazy to me.

I have been watching the Peoria(Ill) TT's since I could walk and since seeing this I see why the Harley twins, Triumph, BSA and XS Yamaha motors were the dominate factor. I couldn't imagine anyone being able to turn with the agility that the twins have equipped with a motor as wide as the fours.

Since they moved to the rotax and the newer kaw and honda dirbikes, the sport has lost some of it's beauty. It's still kinda fun to watch but nothing compares to seeing a XR750 Harley burn around PMC race park and hit a jump landing 80+ feet from it.

If anyone is in the area around Sept. 12-13( weekend after labor day) vintage racing is a must. I love seeing the oldtimers beat the crap out of everyone.
Chuck dont need oil. Engines run cause they are afraid of chuck! ;D



Offline 754

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Re: Finally !! The RICK HOCKING Champion Framed 750 Flattracker!!
« Reply #21 on: October 21, 2009, 10:30:49 AM »
One of the times, we ran a Cb 750 on the ice, we had stock pipes on it..
 Had a rider on it that races shortrack, He was first outa the gate, but started having trouble in the corners, the pipes were hitting!.. It was setup around stock height. We cut the steering stop off one side and bashed the tank in on the right. We had great traction, he said he could have leaned a lot more if he had the clearance! The bike would wheely quite easily..

 Maybe we got to offset the motor , an inch, that would help.. :D
Maker of the WELDLESS 750 Frame Kit
dodogas99@gmail.com

My next bike will be a ..ANFOB.....

It's All part of the ADVENTURE...

73 836cc.. Green, had it for 3 decades!!
Lost quite a few CB 750's along the way
69 z50
OHV 200..(Trail 90)



Offline IHWillys

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Re: Finally !! The RICK HOCKING Champion Framed 750 Flattracker!!
« Reply #22 on: October 21, 2009, 11:25:28 AM »
The legend of Roberts and the TZ has jumped the shark....

Thanks for bringing us back down to reality.  However, what I posted isn't untrue as multiple posts here have now claimed.  Roberts did win the '75 Indy Mile on the TZ750.  The TZ was banned a few weeks later.  As well, it has been reported in many places about Roberts' comments, both recent and at the time, concerning the TZ and what it took to ride it to that victory.  I suppose these quotes could be incorrect or entirely made up.

Quote from: kos
...
Also corner speeds quoted by the King were in the area of 120-125 not 150mph as someone was quoting on this forum. ...

My post mentioned the 150 mph as the speed on the straights... so they don't go much faster on the straights than in the corners?  120-125 mph in the corners relates to how much more mph on the straights on a mile oval?  srook reports that KR pulled out the Indy win by passing on the final straight, that would mean he was likely going faster on the straights than in the corners.  How much faster?  Again, Roberts is reported to have said the 150 mph figure for the speed at the end of the straights as I stated in my original post, but now I will concede that perhaps these quotes are incorrect or Roberts has misspoken or whatever.

edit:don't know why I put possessive marks in there(Roberts'), fixed now.

Ken
« Last Edit: October 22, 2009, 10:22:59 AM by IHWillys »



klx678

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Re: Finally !! The RICK HOCKING Champion Framed 750 Flattracker!!
« Reply #23 on: October 23, 2009, 04:38:05 PM »
The legend of Roberts and the TZ has jumped the shark.  There were multi cylinders bikes on the mile well before the TZ700/750 ever showed up.  BSA and Triumph had used the 3 cylinder motor in specialty framed trackers as soon as the rules allowed (1970).  The TZ produced about 125 hp.  Roberts wasn't pitching it sideways at 150 for sure.  The rule change wasn't the reason the CB750 didn't succeed on the mile either.  Like the 3 cylinder brits it was too wide.  The motor had to sit high in the frame to keep it from grounding in the turns which made it handle poorly.  The CB didn't have the low end power of the British and American twins either.  Kel Carruthers (Roberts builder) spearheaded the move to ban the TZ from the mile.  Roberts didn't destroy the competition at Indy 1975.  He was at the rear and barely won on the final straight.  He raced the bike two more times and didn't do very well.  The TZ was a failure.  If it wasn't banned it would have been abandoned just like the CB750 milers.  The video of the Indy race has been pulled from youtube but it is funny to watch as KR goes wide in the turns.  He was totally off the line and barely pulled out the victory.
Scott

You must not have been there...  I was.

Roberts hadn't seen or ridden the bike before that Saturday night.  He wasn't "off line" for a two stroke, he figured out the line as he rode, coming from a near last place start to pass Keener and Springsteen on the last straight.  He wa riding hard enough to clip the bails coming out of the corners, because he could and he was going to win or break trying.  As for pitching it in, he went in high, down low and came out high - classic two stroke technique.  (I saw Rick Hocking running a vintage TD1 Yamaha twin at Ashland Ohio doing the same thing and putting the nearest 750 a half lap down.)  So I'd say "barely pulled out the victory" is quite an understatement.  You had to be there to see what we saw...  literally a come from behind win the first time on the bike.
  Based on that I'd say your comment "Roberts didn't destroy the competition at Indy 1975.  He was at the rear and barely won on the final straight." is the ultimate in downplaying what an incredible race it was.  Virtually last to first - just what would he have had to do to destroy them?  Wheelie past them at the line?

By the way, Roberts said exactly what has been quoted.  But Roberts was all in favor of running 500s on the roadrace courses and flat tracks.  One possible reason was that tires were not up to for the demand on them at that time.

I'd also like to note that the Triumph triples weren't all that bad on the mile tracks until the all-alloy XR750 came out.  Jim Rice ran pretty well on them.

You could learn a lot if you could get ahold of a January 1976 Cycle World magazine and read the articles.  That combination allowed a roadracer to have a mile bike for the cost of the rolling chassis, instead of having to buy a whole bike - roadracing paid AMA Grand National points back then, which helped Roberts a lot.  Doug Schwerma of Champion frames, with no help from Yamaha, built up the bike to use as much of the roadracing parts as possible.  The bikes were tested on  regional tracks like Ascot.

The ban ended any possible development on any multis, so there was no testing of detuning, flywheels, and possible big bang crank set ups.  It was gone and I'd say flat track has been far the worse for it - 38 years of domination by a single engine design (Of course the AMA did it's job weighing down the Honda when it came in during the 1980s, effectively killing Honda's incentive to participate.)  There were struggles in the Syracuse race where I believe Roberts got sixt and a bad tire choice took him out of contention at Sacramento later that year.  The bike also brought the rain tread road race tires on the tracks by Roberts, which was the predecessor of the present flat track tire tread design.  

Like I have said before, they either should have stopped it before it started or they should have let it as you say be "abandoned".  Would they have worked eventually?  Neither you nor I know, or ever will know.  What a shame...  Just like throwing all that lead on the bottom of the NS750.  Kill it off if it beats the XR.
« Last Edit: October 23, 2009, 04:43:00 PM by klx678 »



Offline bwaller

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Re: Finally !! The RICK HOCKING Champion Framed 750 Flattracker!!
« Reply #24 on: October 23, 2009, 06:05:03 PM »
Interesting klx678. It was a great time to be a motorcycle race fan.