Topic: Any advice about racing vintage bikes?

[JIMLARCH]

Although I am old enough to have owned a new CB500 Honda in my youth and other "vintage" bikes, I am not that experienced when it comes to racing a bike of that vintage.  In the last ten years, although I always had a CB900f in my stable, I have been spoilt by the newness of modern machinery.  My 900f is a great bike, but it is never ridden as hard as my modern sport bike.

Modern bikes have new parts, not like some of the parts on my 550 racer.  Thrash a modern bike at a track day or elsewhere, all I give it is a casual glance to make sure the tires are fine and there are no oil leaks.

In my first races I applied this complacency to my 550.  It ran very well. I'd come into the pits, look at the tires, and give a quick glance for oil leaks.  Inspection over, cursory at best.

A few races later I had a lesson.  I came into a fast right hander, which is followed by a left hander.  When I went into the left hander I had a major slide.  Luck kept me from initially going down, and the bike straightened itself.  A certain amount of skill kept me running off the track.  It turned out that I had oil all over the left side of my rear tire. 

The 30 odd year old oil pressure switch on top of my oil pump had developed a leak.  I put this down to old age, and possibly myself, for not heating the engine up sufficiently before the race and causing excessive pressure in the engine.  Oh it didn't help that the casing over the chain had been drilled (sure looks pretty though) which gave the oil somewhere to drip off. 

This pressure switch leak, as I am now told, is not that unusual.  I cured the problem by getting another pressure switch, which did not leak, and JB welding the top plastic area.  This pressure switch is the same part number as my 1982 CB900F, so Honda have used it on many bikes from the 70's and 80's. 

I would suggest that on occasion it might not be a bad idea to take the cover over the oil pump on  CB500/550's off and take a look at the switch.  If there are no holes in the cover the only way the oil can get out is to creep past the cover gasket.  Somehow I think this problem will only arise if the engine is basically used for racing.

So, does anyone else have information in racing vintage bikes that might possibly save one of use from possibly hurting ourselves in the future?

[Bill/BentON Racing]

Safety wire everything!,esp the grips (experience)torque and check everything regularly,write it down,use the best you can afford,wear good leathers and first rate full face helmet and boots and glvs.Good Luck,Bill

[voxonda]

+1,

But most of all, use your head and common sence! Races are not won in the first corner/lap.

Good luck, Rob

[Old Scrambler]

All of the above + use fresh oil and brake lines.  Be sure to clamp the slip-on oil line between the back of the tranny and the oil tank. I do those things for the street..........haven't been to the track yet!

[turboguzzi]

I have omitted that switch altogether, why run the risk of another leak? put a threaded plug instead.

i think you'll have the accept the fact that vintage racers have higher chances of developing technical problems than newer stuff, that includes also throwing rods, losing the brakes, you name it.

dont forget that you might be doing the best maintenance out there but if the guy if front of you drops oil on the track you fall too. seen it happen, luckily not to me.

in three years I did not have a technical DNF so I must be doing something right, on the other hand, had two oil leaks, one of them mid race (fork seal, was left without brakes), had a caliper seize,  broke rear sprocket studs (could have ended in tears) and other stuff.

spend stupid amounts of time checking every thing, disassemble the bike to the last bolt at least once per season, just look at it thinking what can go wrong. it helps.

[JIMLARCH]

I have omitted that switch altogether, why run the risk of another leak? put a threaded plug instead.

i think you'll have the accept the fact that vintage racers have higher chances of developing technical problems than newer stuff, that includes also throwing rods, losing the brakes, you name it.

dont forget that you might be doing the best maintenance out there but if the guy if front of you drops oil on the track you fall too. seen it happen, luckily not to me.

in three years I did not have a technical DNF so I must be doing something right, on the other hand, had two oil leaks, one of them mid race (fork seal, was left without brakes), had a caliper seize,  broke rear sprocket studs (could have ended in tears) and other stuff.

spend stupid amounts of time checking every thing, disassemble the bike to the last bolt at least once per season, just look at it thinking what can go wrong. it helps.

What threaded bolt did you use to plug the hole?  That would probably be the most reliable way of doing it, but as you know the thread is very small, and I didn't know where to get one that fitted.  In regards to my JB weld method, I coated it thoroughly, and I would be very surprised if it leaked now.

[turboguzzi]

the oil switch is a pipe thread so you should be able to get the piece in an hydraulics fittings shop. jut show them the switch.

by the way, a major thing to check in 500-550's is of course the primary chain, you dont want it to cut your oil supply mid race, right?

 

TG

[Big Bob]

I organize a track day for old bikes every spring.  We take up one group out of a four group rotation that runs all day.  Usually get in five or six 15-20 mintue sessions.

Every time we go it's the same old thing.  All the guys on modern bikes start #$%*ing.  "Oh boy, all thos antiques are going to screw up our day, oil the track, crash, red flags, what a pain in the ass."

And every time it's the modern groups that are blowing up engines and rolling out the ambulances.



The biggest thing that racing takes is time.  If everything goes fine you're probably looking at 8 hours in the garage.  Changing oil, checking the bike over, doing maintenance.  If something goes wrong it's more time.

Packing, unpacking.  Loading and unloading your hauler.  Putting everything away when you get home.  Food, laundry.  And then there's all the other crap you were neglecting while you were screwing around with your race bike.  Thigns like taking care of your home and showing up at work once in a while.

If you've got a wife she better be supportive, or at least tolerant, or your life will be miserable.

Except for when you're heading into turn 1.

[MRieck]

Safety wire everything!,esp the grips (experience)torque and check everything regularly,write it down,use the best you can afford,wear good leathers and first rate full face helmet and boots and glvs.Good Luck,Bill

....including your wallet.

[lordmoonpie]

oil thread is bsp fitting if I recall correctly. Best thing with these bikes is to race and spend the following week checking and maintaining the bike. That way it races as well as a modern bike. I've not had a technical/mechanical DNF on my '72 450 twin for 7 years.

I've used it before and I'll use it again - "fail to prepare and you prepare to fail".

[turboguzzi]

I organize a track day for old bikes every spring.  We take up one group out of a four group rotation that runs all day.  Usually get in five or six 15-20 mintue sessions.

Every time we go it's the same old thing.  All the guys on modern bikes start #$%*ing.  "Oh boy, all thos antiques are going to screw up our day, oil the track, crash, red flags, what a pain in the ass."

And every time it's the modern groups that are blowing up engines and rolling out the ambulances.



The biggest thing that racing takes is time.  If everything goes fine you're probably looking at 8 hours in the garage.  Changing oil, checking the bike over, doing maintenance.  If something goes wrong it's more time.

Packing, unpacking.  Loading and unloading your hauler.  Putting everything away when you get home.  Food, laundry.  And then there's all the other crap you were neglecting while you were screwing around with your race bike.  Thigns like taking care of your home and showing up at work once in a while.

If you've got a wife she better be supportive, or at least tolerant, or your life will be miserable.

Except for when you're heading into turn 1.

good wrap up Bob, a racer's life....

 I assume that starting from  the bare street bike to having my racer running i put in something like 400 hours, (but I built most everything myself, outsourced very few jobs)

Race weekend/track day takes a good 4 hours to load the station wagon with everything (a good check list is essential), unfold my parked trailer and be ready to move, I usually try do it the night before leaving. 

having an italian girlfriend that loves cooking sure makes life nicer in the paddock but as a compensation we usually to stay in small farms that rent rooms rather than sleep in a tent next to the car.

If bike's OK on saturday we often try to take some time off the track and see interesting places around too.

[gene03079]

Safety wire everything!,esp the grips (experience)torque and check everything regularly,write it down,use the best you can afford,wear good leathers and first rate full face helmet and boots and glvs.Good Luck,Bill

....including your wallet.

The wallet goes fast on the vintage bikes.  We spend hours looking for a few more horses out of the old beasts. We spend hundreds of hours prepping for a 15 minute race. With any luck you can roll the bike onto the trailer in one piece at the end of the weekend.

We don’t draw large crowds in the stands. The spray of champagne after a win is not going to happen. Our Umbrella Girls are a lot older. But you have to love it.



Mike- See if you can find me an extra 9HP in that motor. I can feel a win coming.

[MRieck]

Safety wire everything!,esp the grips (experience)torque and check everything regularly,write it down,use the best you can afford,wear good leathers and first rate full face helmet and boots and glvs.Good Luck,Bill

....including your wallet.

The wallet goes fast on the vintage bikes.  We spend hours looking for a few more horses out of the old beasts. We spend hundreds of hours prepping for a 15 minute race. With any luck you can roll the bike onto the trailer in one piece at the end of the weekend.

We don’t draw large crowds in the stands. The spray of champagne after a win is not going to happen. Our Umbrella Girls are a lot older. But you have to love it.



Mike- See if you can find me an extra 9HP in that motor. I can feel a win coming.

Gene....I'll have to send out a search team to get that much more out of a 175.

[Old Scrambler]

Everybody is willing to spend to get more power............BUT........are you in shape to use the power you already have?  And then there are those that learn the skills to overcome other riders..........no matter what their personal weight to HP ratio is! 

[lordmoonpie]

+1 to that - best racing I ever saw was a Swedish guy on a 68bhp Rotax single chasing the tail of a 996 Ducati lap after lap after lap around Cardwell park. The Ducati had 148bhp apparently and he couldn't shake "The Swede!" 

[simon#42]

the more inexperienced the rider the more they want more power and bigger brakes , when they have been riding a while they realise the secret is not using the brakes as much and not closing the throttle as often . corner speed is everything , the less power you have the more you should try to maintain your momentum . get the best suspension you can buy [ beg or steal ]  put loads of new tyres on it and try very very hard

[turboguzzi]

the more inexperienced the rider the more they want more power and bigger brakes , when they have been riding a while they realise the secret is not using the brakes as much and not closing the throttle as often . corner speed is everything , the less power you have the more you should try to maintain your momentum . get the best suspension you can buy [ beg or steal ]  put loads of new tyres on it and try very very hard

+1 generally speaking but not on the last bit. Every time I go for a session while realxed, just wanting to get a feel for the track I do my best times. Whenever I go in with my race face, thinking" "now i am going to try real hard", I go slower....

pretty amazing, works like that for me every time.

TG

BTW, where's jim gone...

[simon#42]

hes seen our advice and decided to take up golf !!!

[turboguzzi]

hes seen our advice and decided to take up golf !!!

good, at least we manged to steer him out of a bad habit...

guess its pretty easy to tell we are all race-sick here

[JIMLARCH]

hes seen our advice and decided to take up golf !!!

Is golf where you hit that little ball, and get paid millions?      Just taking in the advice. 

I have a question.  What style do most of you follow when cornering?  I'm pretty much old school, don't hang off much, even on my GSXR1000.  On my racer I follow the same style.  I just feel comfortable that way, and the bike seems more stable to me.  I saw an excellent photo recently of a vintage racer in a bend on the race track behind a modern sport bike.  They both had the same lean angle, with the vintage racer old school, knee miles from the ground, and the sport bike rider dragging his knee. 

Do any of you hang off a lot, and do you find it beneficial on a vintage racer?

[turboguzzi]

there's a lot going for it (see my avatar), specially since current vintage racing rubber offers much more grip than was ever available in the 70's when these bikes were new.

the list of advantages is almost too long to list, just open "twist of the wrist" or another road racing techniques book,  but at the end of the day you should be comfortable doing it.

If it doesnt suit you and your style then it will slow you down,

Christian Sarron was a very fast french 250 World Champion and 500 GP rider in the 80's who hardly hanged off or dragged knees yet went fast as stink.

TG   

[JIMLARCH]

there's a lot going for it (see my avatar), specially since current vintage racing rubber offers much more grip than was ever available in the 70's when these bikes were new.

the list of advantages is almost too long to list, just open "twist of the wrist" or another road racing techniques book,  but at the end of the day you should be comfortable doing it.

If it doesnt suit you and your style then it will slow you down,

Christian Sarron was a very fast french 250 World Champion and 500 GP rider in the 80's who hardly hanged off or dragged knees yet went fast as stink.

TG   

TG

Yes I can see from your avatar that you are hanging off , pretty much as much as I like to.  I've seen some guys in our club really hanging off, no cheek on the seat.  One guy races a KZ550 Kawasaki and he has a real exaggerated angle of hang off.  Thing is he's really fast, and wins races.  I guess it is as you say, whatever feels comfortable is the way to go. 

I'm still trying to adjust from a modern sport bike to a racer of another generation, with it's stable, but somewhat loose feel, compared to a modern bike.

In regards to Sarron, as I recall he only won one 500 GP and that was in the rain in Germany.  I recall, I may be wrong, that commentators stated he crashed a lot because of his old school style not suiting modern bikes.  I guess someone should have told Mike Hailwood that his style was not good enough to win races.  I can't believe some of the lean angles he achieved on skinny race tires that are probably not as good as the regular bias ply street tires we use today.

[turboguzzi]

just give me the single WC that sarron had in 250 and ill be a happy man.... in those years, 250 was almost as important as 500.

the only tip that i can give you if your getting into hanging off is to move your butt off the seat way before flicking the bike, that way your body is already in the right position when you lean it over. and dont force yourself to drag the knee per se, rossi's almost never really touches the ground.

actually on your GSXR you could benefit more from hanging off: by shifting your own CG you have to wrestle the bike less.

in any case, the knee is a good lean angle gauge.

have you taken racing school?

TG

 

 

[JIMLARCH]

just give me the single WC that sarron had in 250 and ill be a happy man.... in those years, 250 was almost as important as 500.

the only tip that i can give you if your getting into hanging off is to move your butt off the seat way before flicking the bike, that way your body is already in the right position when you lean it over. and dont force yourself to drag the knee per se, rossi's almost never really touches the ground.

actually on your GSXR you could benefit more from hanging off: by shifting your own CG you have to wrestle the bike less.

in any case, the knee is a good lean angle gauge.

have you taken racing school?

TG

 

 

I've taken a few race schools, and have quite a few years bike experience.  I am on my third GSXR1000.  I'm not a slow street rider by any means, and in my day I used to throw my old CB900f around enough to show up a lot of riders on more modern bikes.  But, after 10 years on high power modern bikes, I've been spoilt and lost the feel of the older stuff.  That's why I put this thread up, because no matter how long I've been riding, I'm sure there are plenty  of things I need to relearn, or be reminded about. 

You and others on this site quite obviously have a lot of knowledge, and skill riding a race bike.  I'm here to soak it in.