Author Topic: Sludge in oil? Only on the cap? (Read 8049 times)

ev0lve · « **on:** December 01, 2009, 04:53:07 PM »

Went to check my oil today and found this cream colored crud along the filler and cap. Doesn't seem to be in tank. Doesn't smell. WTF is this?

Some recent stuff I think is probably unrelated but...
Kreemed the tank recently - inline fuel filter in place.
Recent oil change - Shell 10w-40

I'm guessing this might be the culprit ...
Added some Seafoam to the oil when I changed it - less than an ounce

Anyways, what is this? Something's condensing out of my oil? Will it eventually be a problem? Flush the oil ASAP?

Thanks!

TwoTired · « **Reply #1 on:** December 01, 2009, 05:14:46 PM »

Looks like brown mayo, right? That would be an emulsion of oil and water.

You aren't getting the oil hot enough to vaporize/boil off the water that is condensing in the engine/tank.
If you have an oil cooler, better block off air flow over it. This is one reason why they need a thermostat, other wise the oil can't get to operating temp and one that will boil off the water.

Anyway, you need to run the bike long enough to get the entire engine unit hot, about 15-20 minutes after the engine has reached full operating temperature. Even then, in very cold weather it can be a real challenge to get an air cooled motor hot and maintain it until all the water condensed in the engine will evaporate.

Of course, the next time the engine cools down, condensation forms inside all over again. Short trips will just allow the water accumulation to increase. The water, you might wonder comes right out of the humidity in the air. The process is the same as when water condenses on the outside of your cold beer glass.

ev0lve · « **Reply #2 on:** December 01, 2009, 05:22:46 PM »

Brown mayo is exactly right

OK, so normal(ish) for a bike parked outside. New to me though

Just wipe it off until the weather gets better and try to take longer rides? No harm no foul?

Thanks TT!

Whaleman · « **Reply #3 on:** December 01, 2009, 05:39:38 PM »

+1 defiantly water in the oil. Dan

TwoTired · « **Reply #4 on:** December 01, 2009, 05:49:54 PM »

Brown mayo doesn't lubricate nearly as well as pure oil. The emulsion's film strength isn't very good. Worse, the water can react with the organics in the oil to form amino acids that physically attack (eat) the metal.

You should try to assess how much is actually in circulation as part of the oil that is circulated.

Time is your enemy when this stuff appears. If you can't get rid of it in short order, then change the oil before putting it through the engine. Certainly get rid of it now if you think any of the emulsion may be resting on bearing surfaces.

Hush · « **Reply #5 on:** December 01, 2009, 05:52:47 PM »

Probably find your air filter is a bit gooey too if your rocker cover breather vents into it.
Haven't seen water vapour goo like that since my old Holden Sunbird, now there was a car that could create froth!

ev0lve · « **Reply #6 on:** December 01, 2009, 09:30:19 PM »

Hmmm, once I got the tank and carbs back on I noticed I had some spotty oil buildup in this crevice below the breather (I always assumed it was a breather although why it would vent to the starter motor or vice versa?). We've had some sideways rain in the last week or so - possible I disturbed it and it's letting the water in?

Otherwise where would oil come from that would pool up on the high side of the bike while on the kickstand? No obvious leaks at the head from that side I can see.

Why do I have the feeling this is going to end badly? $:-\$

754 · « **Reply #7 on:** December 01, 2009, 09:51:18 PM »

Condensation is pretty common in cold temps when egine does not get fully warm.
What remps did you ride in and what weight oil?

It was in the 20s when I ride to town today, and when I got back.. the oil dont get real warm. My sludge is worse than yours.

I changed to I think 5-30 a while back, would have preferred straight 20 W

ev0lve · « **Reply #8 on:** December 01, 2009, 10:04:17 PM »

Quote from: 754 on December 01, 2009, 09:51:18 PM

Condensation is pretty common in cold temps when egine does not get fully warm.
What remps did you ride in and what weight oil?

Low 50's in the afternoon to low 30's in the morning. 10w-40 and ride times are average 20 minutes 1 way with a 1 cigarette warmup while I coddle the throttle. Gets ridden just about everyday unless the rains coming sideways (not often here in Seattle).

Any way to quell the sludge other than moving some place with a heated garage if it is just condensation in the oil tank and not a path I've introduced inadvertently?

You can tell this is my first winter with a 35 year old machine right?

754 · « **Reply #9 on:** December 01, 2009, 10:12:34 PM »

10-30 or 30w might help a bit.. will kick over easier..

I am sort of thinking of trying to put some thing in to heat the oil, dry it out and make it start easier.. but dont know what?

Deltarider · « **Reply #10 on:** December 02, 2009, 12:00:06 AM »

Even for the serie of short 20 minutes rides that you mention, I believe sludge in the picture is excessive. Look for possible entries for water. Did you wash your bike and did water get in accidentally? And does that breather breath or what?

TwoTired · « **Reply #11 on:** December 02, 2009, 01:28:14 AM »

Quote from: Deltarider on December 02, 2009, 12:00:06 AM

And does that breather breath or what?

This is a very good point.
I don't think what you have pictured in reply #6 is the breather. Isn't that the neutral switch? The engine breather comes off the top of the engine. I expect there is some sort of vent on the oil tank itself, also. Both of these should bear attention so that the vapor has an escape route to the atmosphere (or carb inlet). The 77-78 750F bikes have a route back to the carb inlets. The early 750's just vented to atmosphere, I think. Some of the 750 guys should know where to look/check. I did a quick scan of the shop manual, without any illumination on the issue.

Whaleman · « **Reply #12 on:** December 02, 2009, 05:10:06 AM »

That is not a breather. That is the oil pressure switch. Breather way up top. Dan

MCRider · « **Reply #13 on:** December 02, 2009, 05:30:54 AM »

Quote from: Whaleman on December 02, 2009, 05:10:06 AM

That is not a breather. That is the oil pressure switch. Breather way up top. Dan

Thats right. I don't see the wire coming out of the protective boot, that goes to your oil idiot light. Is that light working?

Also, you mentioned using 10W-40 oil. Generally speaking the 5W and 10W oils have anti-frictiuon additives and should not be used in motorcycles that share oil with the trans.

Look at your oil bottles for a round seal that has "anti-friction" in it somewhere. Not a fatal issue, just something to consider.

Toxic · « **Reply #14 on:** December 02, 2009, 05:46:39 AM »

On a 750 you wouldn't see the wire. It goes under the starter cover via a rubber grommet.

MCRider · « **Reply #15 on:** December 02, 2009, 05:50:22 AM »

Quote from: Toxic on December 02, 2009, 05:46:39 AM

On a 750 you wouldn't see the wire. It goes under the starter cover via a rubber grommet.

Thanks, I couldn't remember.

andy750 · « **Reply #16 on:** December 02, 2009, 07:29:06 AM »

Iggy, I wouldnt worry about it too much as long as you keep to your 1500 -2000 mile oil changes. I have the same sludge at the top of my K4 and K2 oil tanks. I am in Boston, MA and ride till there is ice on the roads in temps from +20F. My bikes both run 10W-40 (used to be regular Castrol GTX car oil - now I use Rotella 15w-40 or Valvoline 10W-40 motorcycle oil as this is what my local car store has in stock). I have been doing this for the last 10 years I have been in Boston.

The K4 bought in 2001 (and covered 40,000 miles since) has had the engine opened a couple of times - no strange wear with any of this. I ride daily 15 -20 mins to work in the early morning and back again late at night - when its coldest

.

The K2 bought in 1999 and 30,000 miles later (now at 56,000 miles) has only had the bottom end inspected (- top end still untouched and stock). Bottom end was cleaned and inspected and was all within spec (done by a very anal ex-Honda mechanic). Head gasket has a mild leak, nothing serious.

Prior to Boston, MA
My F2 back in the UK (had it from 94 -98) was ridden year round - also had the infamous oil sludge in the winter - again only cheap car oil in it - no problems.

Bottom line - what you have is pretty normal for a bike thats kept outside/used in the cold and I wouldnt worry about it.

cheers
Andy

754 · « **Reply #17 on:** December 02, 2009, 07:34:49 AM »

Honda suggests lighter oil in 60 degree or lower temps..

Bob Wessner · « **Reply #18 on:** December 02, 2009, 08:12:57 AM »

I've been checking this thread occasionally and though I am familiar with seeing some of the milky sludge under the right conditions, the orig. post, with pics, looks like far more and thicker than I have ever seen on any bike. Are we sure this all that is going on?

Hinomaru · « **Reply #19 on:** December 02, 2009, 09:32:56 AM »

As mentioned earlier in thread, it would be a good idea to check the oil tank breather/separator and vent hose to ensure its not clogged or restricted. Located on the rear of the oil tank and you can see the vent hose attached to the breather/separator fitting. The other end of the hose vents to the atmosphere.

(click on pic to enlarge)

754 · « **Reply #20 on:** December 02, 2009, 09:33:09 PM »

This was today..
around 30 degrees when I headed home, rode about 4.5 miles.

When I got home the motor was getting warm, I hold it around 4K most of the time so it runs warmer. Valve cover was fairly warm/hot.. dyno cover just getting warm, back of tranny above clutch, barely warm. The oil line nut on the return was just warm, probably 80 degrees or less. I kept it running for about 10 min in neutral at about 3K.. the return line finally started gettting warmer, along with the cases, dyno etc.... but you can still hold your hand on it..

So I know why I get condensation, and it does not boil out..
And I am running either 5 or 10W-30. So I know 40 is too high, in fact I could be using 20 wt.

TwoTired · « **Reply #21 on:** December 02, 2009, 10:00:06 PM »

Isn't that the major appeal of multi-vis oil? It behaves like 10 wt when cold and 40 wt when hot. Warm is somewhere in between. It then circulates as it should and has the correct film strength at what ever temp it experiences.
My Cb750 owner's manual says 10 wt is the lowest viscosity recommended for the engine. And, 10W40 covers all operating temps.
I guess I don't understand why you would run anything else unless you aren't using the factory clearances for the engine internals.

Anyway, the oil viscosity has very little to do with water ingress or elimination.

Oh God, it's turned into an oil thread ... Aaaaaaaaaahhhhhhhhhhhwwwwkkkkk!!!!

754 · « **Reply #22 on:** December 02, 2009, 10:08:49 PM »

You forgot what the thread is about.. its not getting hot, barely warm in fact.
and why would Honda recommend different weights for different temps?... FWIW...

steamnjn23 · « **Reply #23 on:** December 02, 2009, 10:22:15 PM »

this wont help your oil problem, but will address your outside problem.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/RIDE-COVER-STANDARD-BIKE-SHED-STORAGE-GARAGE-BARN_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQhashZitem45ef9e6250QQitemZ300372877904QQptZMotorcyclesQ5fPartsQ5fAccessories

TwoTired · « **Reply #24 on:** December 02, 2009, 10:46:14 PM »

Quote from: 754 on December 02, 2009, 10:08:49 PM

You forgot what the thread is about.. its not getting hot, barely warm in fact.
and why would Honda recommend different weights for different temps?... FWIW...

What does the oil viscosity have to do with whether it gets hot enough to boil out the water condensation? The oil doesn't generate the heat. And, it is an air cooled engine, not an oil cooled engine.

They recommend 10w40 for all temps. If you limit the climate to a narrow range of temps, then they allow a straight weight as an alternative.
The recommendation has to do with the oil's lubricative qualities and flow characteristics vs temperature, not it's water boil off qualities.

As I see it, and understand the science of it, the oil viscosity has nothing to do with whether the oil is getting hot enough to vaporize the condensation mixing with the oil.

What did I miss?

News:

Author Topic: Sludge in oil? Only on the cap? (Read 8049 times)

Hinomaru