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Author Topic: Wintergreen oil_rubber renew test / peanut oil plastic renew test_pics  (Read 21986 times)

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Offline Blackhorse

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Re: Wintergreen oil_rubber renew test / peanut oil plastic renew test_pics
« Reply #25 on: January 04, 2010, 05:28:44 PM »
If the wintergreen renders the boots edible do they have the shelf life of a Twinkie or maybe SPAM? Curious minds want to know. Maybe we could get a study grant from the Government.

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Offline joesmotos

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Re: Wintergreen oil_rubber renew test / peanut oil plastic renew test_pics
« Reply #26 on: January 04, 2010, 09:26:05 PM »
I had to laugh when i read this thread...many moons ago i had some 750 Nighthawk airbox boots..they were hard as a rock...i put them into a bucket of carburetor cleaner...dont ask me why...anyway..i forgot about them till the next day..pulled them out and they were more than double the size,limp as can be...chemistry gone awry...so im calling all over town looking for a pair of Nighthawk boots so i can put this bike back together..didnt find any,i washed them off with a hose and i left the boots laying outside for the night,when i came back the next day they were shrunken back up to normal size and supple as can be,seriously..slipped back on like new ones..course i have no clue what happened later..just my two cents worth..

Offline HondaMan

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Re: Wintergreen oil_rubber renew test / peanut oil plastic renew test_pics
« Reply #27 on: January 05, 2010, 07:35:46 AM »
I had to laugh when i read this thread...many moons ago i had some 750 Nighthawk airbox boots..they were hard as a rock...i put them into a bucket of carburetor cleaner...dont ask me why...anyway..i forgot about them till the next day..pulled them out and they were more than double the size,limp as can be...chemistry gone awry...so im calling all over town looking for a pair of Nighthawk boots so i can put this bike back together..didnt find any,i washed them off with a hose and i left the boots laying outside for the night,when i came back the next day they were shrunken back up to normal size and supple as can be,seriously..slipped back on like new ones..course i have no clue what happened later..just my two cents worth..

Okay, now I'm going to try that...I have some extra (damaged, not good anyway) boots, and some carb cleaners. This will be fun!  :D
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Offline dagersh

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Re: Wintergreen oil_rubber renew test / peanut oil plastic renew test_pics
« Reply #28 on: January 05, 2010, 11:57:19 AM »
Make sure you wear protection Hondaman!!!
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Offline Big Bob

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Re: Wintergreen oil_rubber renew test / peanut oil plastic renew test_pics
« Reply #29 on: January 05, 2010, 03:10:13 PM »
This thread reminds me of a similar thread on another forum.  There was a discussion going about softening up old tires by soaking them in various substances.  One reader is a chemist and he wrote this (quoted here with his permission):



Please read through this post.  I am a joe college degreed
chemist, and have learned a thing or two about polymers through
industry.

1) Polymer aging.
Rubber is a form of a polymer. Think very long chained molecules,
branches, and cross linking (branches connecting up again).  As
polymers age, long chained molecules get broken (chain scission).  The
matrix (mix of various rubber types) loses its mechanical properties
(durometer or hardness, elasticity or bounce, tensile strength or
stress/strain properties).  The older tire becomes more brittle, less
flexible, and possibly more prone to crumbling.  Different polymers
have different physical properties changing.

2) Adding oils to polymers.  Simply put like dissolves like.  Allow me
to whip this horse a bit:
Would you use oil based lube on a condom?
http://blip.tv/file/216321
(pick your format, and endure the diary chatter, the demo is in the
last 2 minutes of the clip).
When you buy a new tire, common wisdom states that you should not
instantly drive aggressively.  Why? Because the outer surface of the
tire is impregnated with a silicone release agent.  The silicone is in
the first few mils of the tire, and it typicaly gets scrubbed off in
the first hundred miles of driving.

Petroleum based oils (and mineral oil based WD-40 is in this group,
IMO) will soften the matrix of a tire like crisco will soften up a
latex condom.

Juice up an old tire with WD-40, and what do you get?  A tire
impregnated with its own grease slick, deep into the old and brittle
tread.  Welcome to the retread from Hell, pray for absolutely no water
out there!


3) But it makes it more soft!  Sure it does, welcome to step one of
your tires going into solution like sugar into a hot latte.

Here's an other analogy.  The rubber in a new tire has complete
polymers.  The cross linking, or vulcanizing, is optimized.
Everything with the new tire is fresh, much like a grain of uncooked
rice.    Now, age that tire for five years.  The matrix breaks down,
long chains become shorter chains, flexibility begets brittleness, and
so on.  Our grain of rice is more like a rice crispy.  Let's wet
things up:  petroleum based oils for the rubber, and water based milk
for the rice.  The organic molecules start to enter their solution as
the starches get softened up by the milk.  Would you want to depend
your adhesion to the tarmac by the solid matrix, or the one that is
full of holes, and softened further by solvents?

One more thing about hand feel versus road performance:
to truly test if a juiced tire is either better than the old tire will
require a reproducable test.  Hand softness is a useless test, but
tensile strength, yield to plastic deformation (bend to where you stop
snapping back to your original shape), adhesion, and wear are
important.  Clearly, the only way to prove these arguments out for
sure is in a controlled environment like a mechanical testing
laboratory.  This is speculation, but a dried out old tire plus juice
will yield a softened and weak bit of rubber that will wear super fast
if not fly apart from the cord.

Again, In My Opinion, juicing plastics is better left to making the
inside of a car in Arizona look more like new, than trusting your life
on top of (remember that rice crispy).

4) Brave versus crazy.
Riding a 100cc bike to TWALD has been referred to as "something he did
not know you shouldn't do".  That makes me laugh.  I was not crazy,
because I sorted through my ride before the trip.  I consulted with
experts, and was not afraid to ask ridiculous questions.  I also
studied everything I could get my hands on.  I also continue to learn
and add this to the sport.

Softening up a tire that is too old to ride is crazy.  The idea is
based on conjecture, and machismo.  I can relate to the sense of
defiant pride when peers look upon your efforts with denial and
disbelief.  But using dogma and non science as your foundation is
reckless.

5) Absolute Liberty.
I cannot save you from yourself.  It is my professional and personal
opinion that juicing a tire that has past its functional age is
Russian VinMoto Roulette.  However, it's your bike, it's your life.
You are ultimately responsible if you mess with this stuff.

Offline GammaFlat

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Re: Wintergreen oil_rubber renew test / peanut oil plastic renew test_pics
« Reply #30 on: January 05, 2010, 03:28:53 PM »
Very interesting post Bob.  I think (er, um, I hope) I'd never try to "re-soften" tires.  Having said that, I think most people are overly conservative with tires (which is the way it should be). 

In terms of the engine to carb connectors and the carb to airbox connectors, a failure obviously has much less potential for a big disaster (certainly less than a tire failure).  Since #4 carb manifold on K7s and K8s is no longer available, I'm interested in trying the "softening juice" and I'll report back here what I find (unless it's redundant).  I have the supplies.... Me an' Igor will be heading for the laboratory ;)
K4 - hmmm.  after K6 is done. 
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K8 - Prolly the next SOHC I have on the road
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Offline kennydean2000

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Re: Wintergreen oil_rubber renew test / peanut oil plastic renew test_pics
« Reply #31 on: February 17, 2010, 08:36:33 AM »
Great thread, was hoping for updates on further testing.

Also - has anyone tried cutting up a radiator hose to create their own carb boots?  It seems like the diameters could be matched - not sure how many diameters of radiator hose exist but there must be something.  Thickness of the hose wall may be a bit wider too creating issues.

Any other similar materials used to try to recreate these???
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Offline mystic_1

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Re: Wintergreen oil_rubber renew test / peanut oil plastic renew test_pics
« Reply #32 on: February 17, 2010, 08:47:07 AM »
Great thread, was hoping for updates on further testing.

Also - has anyone tried cutting up a radiator hose to create their own carb boots?  It seems like the diameters could be matched - not sure how many diameters of radiator hose exist but there must be something.  Thickness of the hose wall may be a bit wider too creating issues.

Any other similar materials used to try to recreate these???



The radiator hose idea has come up several times before.  The problem is that the stock carb boots are shaped to create a smooth intake tract (on the inside) from the carb throats to the spigots on the head.  Using radiator hose, you'd have steps in the walls of the intake tract, that does bad things to your fuel flow.

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Offline kennydean2000

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Re: Wintergreen oil_rubber renew test / peanut oil plastic renew test_pics
« Reply #33 on: February 17, 2010, 08:52:45 AM »
Thanks for saving me some time on that.
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Offline hosanna64

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Re: Wintergreen oil_rubber renew test / peanut oil plastic renew test_pics
« Reply #34 on: February 17, 2010, 09:20:27 AM »
just tried the wintergreen oil and boiling water on my 550 and amazing results.  My wife let me use a pan AND her vegetable steamer to keep them off the bottom of the pan.  Soft and supple after 20 min. boiling.  Does kind of linger in the house though. Smells like a wintergreen lifesaver for some reason.  ::)

Offline kennydean2000

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Re: Wintergreen oil_rubber renew test / peanut oil plastic renew test_pics
« Reply #35 on: February 17, 2010, 09:39:13 AM »
Good wife!  I'll try it (the wintergreen and water)  :)
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Offline the architect

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Re: Wintergreen oil_rubber renew test / peanut oil plastic renew test_pics
« Reply #36 on: February 17, 2010, 09:53:16 AM »
I'm planning to try this, too.

Amazon has this:  http://www.amazon.com/Wintergreen-Oil-4oz/dp/B000NWGL6W/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&m=A1FRT2DFB93P69&s=generic&qid=1266429036&sr=1-1

$4 for 4 oz sounds like the best deal going.  I've looked locally with only limited success.  Most places carry 1/2 oz vials and ask ~$4-6 each.  I'd go broke trying to accumulate 4 oz of the stuff.
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Offline kennydean2000

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Re: Wintergreen oil_rubber renew test / peanut oil plastic renew test_pics
« Reply #37 on: February 18, 2010, 07:04:54 AM »
Thanks for the link - just bought a bottle myself.  Now we just need the weather to warm up here in New Hampshire to get some time in the garage.
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Offline the architect

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Re: Wintergreen oil_rubber renew test / peanut oil plastic renew test_pics
« Reply #38 on: February 18, 2010, 08:46:01 AM »
Thanks for the link - just bought a bottle myself.  Now we just need the weather to warm up here in New Hampshire to get some time in the garage.

I ordered mine yesterday!  I'm cleaning the carbs this weekend, so I hope the wintergreen oil gets here soon.
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Offline wannabridin

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Re: Wintergreen oil_rubber renew test / peanut oil plastic renew test_pics
« Reply #39 on: February 18, 2010, 09:37:46 AM »
are you going to use that 1/2 oz oil to 1/2 gallon water just below boiling for 15-20 min recipie?  that seems to be the best bet.  i'm going to order some of the oil too, i have 2 sets of boots that need it, one WAY more than the other!!!
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Offline mystic_1

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Re: Wintergreen oil_rubber renew test / peanut oil plastic renew test_pics
« Reply #40 on: February 18, 2010, 09:48:16 AM »
Let us know how 1/2 oz to 1/2 gallon works for you, I used about 8oz to a gallon to do 4 boots, but it'd be interesting to find out what the minimum effective concentration is.

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Offline the architect

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Re: Wintergreen oil_rubber renew test / peanut oil plastic renew test_pics
« Reply #41 on: February 18, 2010, 11:25:32 AM »
I was planning to use all 4 oz of the oil in a pot with enough water to cover the 4 boots.  I don't know that it will take a full gallon, but I'll try to keep track of how much I add.  From there, I'll simmer until tender -- 20 or so minutes, it sounds like.
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Offline 55fbomb

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Re: Wintergreen oil_rubber renew test / peanut oil plastic renew test_pics
« Reply #42 on: February 18, 2010, 11:41:31 AM »
i used 4oz for 1 gallon and simmered for 1 hour, the results were pretty impressive.
or maybe im just dumb . . .

Offline wannabridin

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Re: Wintergreen oil_rubber renew test / peanut oil plastic renew test_pics
« Reply #43 on: February 18, 2010, 01:00:59 PM »
fair enough, i guess there's no real way to "test" everything, unless one has a BUNCH of carb boot sets to do!  anyone wanna take on the challenge?  have members ship the boots and they'll try different concentrations to see what the best is??

one thing to consider is that this is just a "temporary" fix and we wont know the long term effects for quite some time!  but until then, it seems to be rebuilding those crosslinks in the parent rubber well enough!!!   ;D

quick question:  has anyone tried to tear, puncture or cut a renewed boot vs. a standard boot in equal condition (aka new from honda?)  that's a long shot question, but worth an answer!  then we can tell how far this really penetrates in and its effect across a cross section of rubber.
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Offline kennydean2000

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Re: Wintergreen oil_rubber renew test / peanut oil plastic renew test_pics
« Reply #44 on: February 18, 2010, 01:32:08 PM »
My guess is that Big Bob's post on the chemistry is pretty spot on.  I think all we're doing is making the boots usable - not rebuilding the materials. 

I think that's perfectly fine in this case since the strength of the material (as new) is probably much more than enough for the purpose.

So what we've got with this process is a way to soften a (now) weaker aged material - that should hopefully still have plenty of remaining strength for the application = success.
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Offline wannabridin

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Re: Wintergreen oil_rubber renew test / peanut oil plastic renew test_pics
« Reply #45 on: February 18, 2010, 03:37:41 PM »
the main concern of mine is the ability for the boots to stay leak proof.  i don't need any vacuum leaks!!  but if it comes down to it, i can probably fab up a brace of sorts for the carbs that fits under the tank to help keep the carbs from resting on the rubbers...
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Offline Thunder

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Re: Wintergreen oil_rubber renew test / peanut oil plastic renew test_pics
« Reply #46 on: February 19, 2010, 12:45:40 AM »
Hi, I've been pretty slack lately with posting result pics, but i have been sourcing pure wintergreen in a less expensive volume.. Sorry.

Previously I tried a concentration of alcohol and wintergreen , but left the boots in too long. They swelled up to double their size, but were real soft.
I left em for a few weeks and they have gone back to their original size, whilst keeping their softness.

I will post some pics of them tonight,when i get home.

Continuing the experiment, the active ingredient is (i believe) Methyl salicylate (as others have posted), which i have ordered from a chemical supplier, about 1 liter.
In this pure form I will put a stainless bowl on a hotplate(outside because this S#%*! has made my shed stink) and raise the temp to near boiling (will take temperature measurement), along with the time needed to make the rubber soft n usable.

Hope to do it this weekend, will post ;D

Offline AshimotoK0

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Re: Wintergreen oil_rubber renew test / peanut oil plastic renew test_pics
« Reply #47 on: February 19, 2010, 02:26:53 AM »
I tested a 750 K0 inlet rubber by soaking  in Tri-Aryl phosphate ester (Reofos 50) at 70 degrees Centigrade (it is a plasticizer for Nitrile Rubber / PVC ). It softened up Ok - that was about 4 months ago. Will have to check its pliability again. It is still in the boot (trunk to non- 'Limeys'  ;D) of my car ! This plasticizer is flame retardant too.

http://www.chemtura.com/bu/v/index.jsp?vgnextoid=40ff7d205ef99110VgnVCM10000053d7010aRCRD&vgnextchannel=b59f921646019110VgnVCM10000053d7010aRCRD&vgnextfmt=default

Have not tried the airbox rubber yet - my analysis was that it was not nitrile rubber but a form of PVC (this is an early K0 about 3000 later than Sandcast with the crappy styrene resin Airbox)  -  airbox replaced with LPM PU one - which is great.

Cheers

Ash D
« Last Edit: February 19, 2010, 08:03:42 AM by AshimotoK0 »
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Offline the architect

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Re: Wintergreen oil_rubber renew test / peanut oil plastic renew test_pics
« Reply #48 on: February 24, 2010, 02:57:02 PM »
Got flex?  I do!

My carb boots were so stiff (peanut gallery: "How stiff were they?!?") -- er, um, sorry, wrong forum.  They were so stiff that I thought they were made of hard plastic when I first removed them.

All 4oz of the Amazon.com $4 wintergreen oil (it's synthetic btw, not "all-natural"), enough water to cover the boots and 30 minutes boiling.  Now they smell like Pepto Bismol -- eeewwwwwww!  BUT! . . . . . 

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Offline mick750F

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Re: Wintergreen oil_rubber renew test / peanut oil plastic renew test_pics
« Reply #49 on: February 24, 2010, 03:58:30 PM »
the main concern of mine is the ability for the boots to stay leak proof.  i don't need any vacuum leaks!!  but if it comes down to it, i can probably fab up a brace of sorts for the carbs that fits under the tank to help keep the carbs from resting on the rubbers...

   Well, there are any number of things out there that you could coat your boots with after softening in order to "seal" them to prevent leaks. Time for another thread on carb boot sealers?  ;) 8)

Mike
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