Topic: Winter Blues

[AshimotoK0]

  I suppose there comes a time in any restoration when you look at the pile of pieces you have gathered after spending lots of cash and wondering wether it's all worth it. I think I am at that point now. Just when I thought that I had enough to contemplate creating something to resemble a motorcycle now find that the £50+brand new genuine parts i bought to refurbish the swinging arm will result in a non-roadworthy bike according to Hondaman, who I very much respect. How can Honda sell me parts which are basically not fit for the purpose they were intended? To depress me even more, I now found that to refurbish the primary drive sprocket Assembly is going to be an engineering headache (even if I can locate the rubbers).

Do I just bang it all together and stop worrying or do it properly and spend the cash?

[Nikkisixx]

Don't give up, do it right! I see you already have a 400/4 to ride?  If so, you can be relaxed about this new project.  Unless this swingarm the last piece to finish the bike, it is a good time to work on everything else you can with other parts you have in hand.  Of course, while you do this you may find other parts that you will need to re-purchase.    Focus on the process not the end product, and enjoy this time of turning wrenches and solving the problems. 

When I need to buy a part I've never bought or use a supplier I've never dealt with, I spend 10 hours or more researching the purchase.  It is cheaper to learn from someone else's mistakes.  Speaking of which - what part did you buy that won't work? 

[AshimotoK0]

Thanks for your kind words Nikkisix  - I am not a quitter. It just bugs me that the new parts I paid a lot for maybe won't do what they were sold for by Honda. The parts in question are  a pair of swinging arm bushes and the long collar they fit on to. I paid over £50 for these but everyone is telling me that they will have more play than is acceptable? Should I take this up with Honda UK do you think?

[Raul CB750K1]

Thanks for your kind words Nikkisix  - I am not a quitter. It just bugs me that the new parts I paid a lot for maybe won't do what they were sold for by Honda. The parts in question are  a pair of swinging arm bushes and the long collar they fit on to. I paid over £50 for these but everyone is telling me that they will have more play than is acceptable? Should I take this up with Honda UK do you think?

I would not want to step onto somebody's toes, but as long as the parts are genuine Honda, and listed for the specific model, I would use them with no qualms. A different thing would be to use aftermarket parts or the like, but I trust that Honda knows what they sell and design -if not in that specific order-

Furthermore, along the years, Honda has been discontinuing parts when the design had been modified, for one reason or another. It is impossible to order an old part number and get it; the Honda computerized ordering system always orders the newest, superseded part number.

I have genuine Honda plastic bushings in both my CB750 and CB350. Sure, bronze bushings last longer. But for the kind of riding I do, I can live with the plastic ones.

[AshimotoK0]

I was just going on what Hondaman tells us (who I have no reason to doubt)

Quote "The new-part clearance is .0008" to .0012", but you will not get this clearance with Honda's new parts, nor with aftermarket bronze bushings, unless you work on them. The typical aftermarket parts comes with .003 to .005" clearance, which will let the rear wheel move (.003" x 18" length x 2 sides=) 0.040" at the start.

Wear limit of .008", per Honda, is enough to let the wheel move sideways about 0.288", which will make for a very uncomfortable ride (if not dangerous!)"

If I am only going to cover low mileages/year should I just go with the Honda parts and keep them well lubed?

[Grnrngr]

If you're doing a true restoration, aren't you sort of obligated to go with actual Honda parts?  I've been considering reworking my swingarm also, mainly because I like the thought of having something a little more durable there, but I'd be hard pressed to tell you whether mine are "worn out" or even broke in since the odometer says 20k, and while I'm sure it happens, probably a lot more frequently on bikes that spend a lot of time stressing those bushings in hard corners, or moto-crossing and such, really havent heard of very many swingarm failures, although it is high on the list of overlooked parts to lube. Other than the occasional passing thought, I haven't looked into it yet, but according to the quote, bronze bushings don't meet spec "without work" either, so what is involved in that work? why could you not do the same work to the factory bushings?   I know how you feel about wasting money and time,but my experience has been if you bang it together today, you'll be banging it back apart again tomorrow....don't let them blues gitcha!!  I'd recommend some Winter Ale...

[country joe]

Definitely do it right and spend the cash. The last thing you want going through your head as you're banging through the gears at 60 mph is a nagging thought in the back of your head if you really did something properly. Looks like you've already got another bike to ride. Take your time with this one. I have found that when I have a problem with something mechanical, the more time you have to think about it, the more solutions you can come up with. Good luck

[AshimotoK0]

Thanks guys - I feel a lot more positive now. I think what I will do is measure the swing arm bush parts very accurately and if I think they are out of tolerance I will complain to David Silver. They are very helpful. Problem is,last time I did this on a new front fender, which had chroming defects, they went through a dozen to find me a decent one but now I notice the price has rocketed from £79 to £175 !!!!!

[Gaucho]

Start it and ride it like you stole it!
Nothing will cheer you more that pissing off the neighborhood late at night. Then you can take it apart and start again.
Gaucho

[Nikkisixx]

Glad you are feeling better about your project.  Now, I'm not looking to step on toes either but Raul is onto something.  Genuine Honda parts darn well better be to tolerance, or my whole bike may fall apart 

I wonder: since these bushings are press fit should you measure them after you press them in?  I have not read what Hondman has said on the topic of swing arm bushings and should probably look into it...

[Nikkisixx]

OK, I still have not looked up Hondaman's thread so I am definitely talking out my ass here.      After reading what you quoted, it seems you may have missunderstood what was being said in that post.

The new-part clearance is .0008" to .0012", but you will not get this clearance with Honda's new parts, nor with aftermarket bronze bushings, unless you work on them.

Bushings can be too tight after they have been installed due to the interference or press fit.  You must ream or hone them to size.  This may be what he is referring to.

The typical aftermarket parts comes with .003 to .005" clearance, which will let the rear wheel move (.003" x 18" length x 2 sides=) 0.040" at the start.

Wear limit of .008", per Honda, is enough to let the wheel move sideways about 0.288", which will make for a very uncomfortable ride (if not dangerous!)"

I'm not so sure about multiplying by two in this equation.  The maximum the swingarm can move laterally at the pivot is the largest clearance of the bore. Plus there is wheel runout,  chain tension, wheel bearing wear which adds to the wiggle factor.  Regardless, he is referring to the upper limit or maximum wear allowed by Honda (per the manual). Your new bushing won't be that lose.  You are most likely good to go!

[Raul CB750K1]

In my CB750 I replaced all the swingarm parts with new Honda parts -plastic bushings-. I have ridden the bike at full throttle, I couldn't get past 110 mph, and there was no wiggle at all.

[AshimotoK0]

OK, I still have not looked up Hondaman's thread so I am definitely talking out my ass here.      After reading what you quoted, it seems you may have missunderstood what was being said in that post.

The new-part clearance is .0008" to .0012", but you will not get this clearance with Honda's new parts, nor with aftermarket bronze bushings, unless you work on them.

Bushings can be too tight after they have been installed due to the interference or press fit.  You must ream or hone them to size.  This may be what he is referring to.

The typical aftermarket parts comes with .003 to .005" clearance, which will let the rear wheel move (.003" x 18" length x 2 sides=) 0.040" at the start.

Wear limit of .008", per Honda, is enough to let the wheel move sideways about 0.288", which will make for a very uncomfortable ride (if not dangerous!)"

I'm not so sure about multiplying by two in this equation.  The maximum the swingarm can move laterally at the pivot is the largest clearance of the bore. Plus there is wheel runout,  chain tension, wheel bearing wear which adds to the wiggle factor.  Regardless, he is referring to the upper limit or maximum wear allowed by Honda (per the manual). Your new bushing won't be that lose.  You are most likely good to go!

I was thinking myself that the bushings  may shrink on ID on pressing in - I will do that. they are not the plastic type as this isa '69K0