Author Topic: So, what oils contain moly?  (Read 5559 times)

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Cormac

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So, what oils contain moly?
« on: February 23, 2010, 06:24:23 PM »
Don't want a pissing match here, just wondering which oils contain moly or friction modifiers. Haven't found a bottle yet that says "NOW WITH MOLY!!" and the parts "person" usually gives you a blank stare when you ask for the msds.

For instance, does Rotella T Triple protection? Stuff is like $10 a gallon... gotta love cheap oil.

wdhewson

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Re: So, what oils contain moly?
« Reply #1 on: February 23, 2010, 06:35:16 PM »
All discourse on oils seem to be a pissing match, so I'll un-zip too. 

But the funny thing is that the longevity of lubricated parts is a much more sensitive function of their meatllurgical properties (or other materials, non-metals) than of the lubricant formlation.  So oil discourse is almost always misplaced.

Moly is short for molybedenum, a metallic chemical element.  But often moly is short for molybedenum sulfide.  This has a laminar physical structure that lubricates like  sliding a deck of cards around.  It is also ink black, so moly oils look ugly.

There are also molybedenum compounds of organic material that are modest friction modifiers and antioxidants.  These are close to colorless.  Often these types of moly-organics are not advertized due to secrrecy, but they are easily analyzed for for those with plasma emission spectrometers.

And so forth............

Don

Offline BobbyR

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Re: So, what oils contain moly?
« Reply #2 on: February 23, 2010, 06:41:49 PM »
Short answer. Honda sells and Moly and non Moly Motorcycle Oil.
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Offline crazypj

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Re: So, what oils contain moly?
« Reply #3 on: February 23, 2010, 06:48:54 PM »
Molybdenum disulphide separates out of oil and coats bottom of sump.
There was/is research going on to keep it in suspension but as far as I know, it still 'sinks' and is only used for assembly particularly on high load area's

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Offline Inigo Montoya

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Re: So, what oils contain moly?
« Reply #4 on: February 24, 2010, 06:31:21 AM »
Wow, not really an answer to the op. Easiest way to look is to turn the bottle around. On the back in the little circle. If it says "energy conserving" then it is not desirable for a wet clutch. Simple as that. Another simple way is just by the oil weight. Almost all oil, unless it is made for small engines, that is 10-30 or lower, will be energy conserving.
I think most 10-40 are not energy conserving.

Quote
But the funny thing is that the longevity of lubricated parts is a much more sensitive function of their meatllurgical properties (or other materials, non-metals) than of the lubricant formlation.  So oil discourse is almost always misplaced.

not sure about this though. Sounds like bunk to me. I mean if I put in regular oil, it will last a certain amount of time. If I put in a better oil, it will last longer. So that WOULD indicate that oil formulation DOES heavily affect longevity.
I mean you can take a bronze bushing and if you leave it dry, it WILL wear out faster than if it is lubed. Maybe I just am reading this wrong.
« Last Edit: February 24, 2010, 06:34:50 AM by Inigo Montoya »

Offline chickenman_26

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Re: So, what oils contain moly?
« Reply #5 on: February 24, 2010, 06:46:13 AM »
Short answer. Honda sells and Moly and non Moly Motorcycle Oil.
Right. Then their owners manuals tell you to not use the moly oil in a wet clutch. It's rated JASO MB right on the bottle, and all of Honda's bikes are spec'd for JASO MA. I don't know why they even offer the stuff.

Stu
« Last Edit: February 24, 2010, 06:48:05 AM by chickenman_26 »
MCN DTF

Offline crazypj

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Re: So, what oils contain moly?
« Reply #6 on: February 24, 2010, 03:31:21 PM »
Probably a crossover from automotive?

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Offline fastbroshi

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Re: So, what oils contain moly?
« Reply #7 on: February 24, 2010, 03:41:40 PM »

Right. Then their owners manuals tell you to not use the moly oil in a wet clutch. It's rated JASO MB right on the bottle, and all of Honda's bikes are spec'd for JASO MA. I don't know why they even offer the stuff.

Stu
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Offline BobbyR

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Re: So, what oils contain moly?
« Reply #8 on: February 24, 2010, 03:58:41 PM »
Short answer. Honda sells and Moly and non Moly Motorcycle Oil.
Right. Then their owners manuals tell you to not use the moly oil in a wet clutch. It's rated JASO MB right on the bottle, and all of Honda's bikes are spec'd for JASO MA. I don't know why they even offer the stuff.

Stu
Generators and other power equipment they sell probably.
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Cormac

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Re: So, what oils contain moly?
« Reply #9 on: February 24, 2010, 05:12:18 PM »
The navy gave a great crash course on oil, why it works, how it works, etc. The metalurgy has very little to do with how long something wears WHEN THE OIL IS PRESENT (not including rings and such). Has everything to do with how long it wears during start-up or out of parameters running though. None the less, when the oil pressure is at operating spec, there should be no metal to metal contact at the rod and main bearings, cam bearings etc. And I am very familiar with what moly is, and where it is used. Hell, I have two tubes of assembly lube in my tool box. However, this wet clutch business is new to me, so I have never really looked at the contents of automotive oil. Just got tired of getting hosed for motorcycle oil.

Inigo right on, that is exactly the info I was looking for.

Offline i_m_jon

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Re: So, what oils contain moly?
« Reply #10 on: February 24, 2010, 05:27:44 PM »
Don't want a pissing match here, just wondering which oils contain moly or friction modifiers. Haven't found a bottle yet that says "NOW WITH MOLY!!" and the parts "person" usually gives you a blank stare when you ask for the msds.

For instance, does Rotella T Triple protection? Stuff is like $10 a gallon... gotta love cheap oil.

If it is labeled "energy conserving" on the API label or if it has the "Starburst" symbol is has friction modifiers. Only 10W/30 and down would have this and they are primarily automotive oils. Anything thicker than 10W/30 is not energy conserving and won't have friction modifiers. That is why guys who swear by xxxx brand automotive oil that they have been using for 75 years without clutch slippage are correct; provided they were using 10W/40 and up. Rotella is excellent oil for motorcycles and is JASO MA certified.

Offline dusterdude

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Re: So, what oils contain moly?
« Reply #11 on: February 25, 2010, 04:39:05 PM »
just about any oil that is non-diesel or motorcycle
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Offline BobbyR

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Re: So, what oils contain moly?
« Reply #12 on: February 25, 2010, 04:42:37 PM »
Here is a technical but readable article explaining about oils.

http://motorcycleinfo.calsci.com/Oils1.html

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Offline Frankenkit

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Re: So, what oils contain moly?
« Reply #13 on: February 25, 2010, 04:48:18 PM »
Rotella T (at least the semi-synth 15w50?) passes JASO MA.
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wdhewson

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Re: So, what oils contain moly?
« Reply #14 on: February 25, 2010, 06:34:22 PM »
Hi: 

A couple of posts have minimized the role of metallurgy with respect to wear rates. 

But there are simple and obvious facts to be noted.  One fact is the use of case or through hardening to minimize wear, certainly this is a metallurgical issue.  And wear rates will be a rather sensitive function of the degree of martensitic structures in the hardened steel.  And, of course, consider the role of stellited parts when hardening the base material is insufficient.  If still in doubt about the role of metallurgy, replace the balls in your rolling element bearings with balls made of lead, and see how far you get.  Sometimes a bit of "lateral thinking" helps the process of discovery.  Ad so forth....

Cormac

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Re: So, what oils contain moly?
« Reply #15 on: February 25, 2010, 07:00:04 PM »
Naturally, hardened materials wear less than the less hardened materials they rub or ride against. This is why rings should be softer than the accompanying cylinder. Can't think of any engine components that are hardened to martensite, but whatever. What was being said, is that engines are designed to ride on a cusion of oil, which is why they CAN use lead (babbit actually) and other soft materials for bearing surfaces and go for tens of thousands of miles. Roller, and ball bearings, are not designed to have a pressurized oil supply, and yes, the properties of the steels used becomes very critical indeed. In a lateral thinking vein, let us suppose that case hardened steel was used for the main bearings. How long do you think they would wear? How easily would the little bits of junk be able to be imbedded into the bearing material (very important aspect of bearing design). Most importantly, how many people would rather replace the thrashed (expensive) crank instead of the (cheap) bearings? Metallurgy is important, but wear rates are rarely the most important aspect, that is why we have lubricants.

Cormac

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Re: So, what oils contain moly?
« Reply #16 on: February 25, 2010, 07:13:01 PM »
Bobby, thanks for the link, great info. Also contained a link to Shells answers about bike engines...
CHEAP ROTELLA it is.

wdhewson

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Re: So, what oils contain moly?
« Reply #17 on: February 26, 2010, 06:10:25 AM »
Hi:  

Martensite is in lots of places in an engine.  Cam lobes, cam followers, gears, chains, laser hardened liners, valve lash shims, and many non-wearing parts that need strength like bolts and nuts.  

Also, rings are usually much harder than liners as you don't want excess wear on the small ring when there is so much liner to wear and preferentially sacrifice.  That's why rings are often hard chromium faced, yet another example of the importance of metallurgy.

It may be difficult to imagine, but most engine parts are not fully separated by an oil film, and operate in what is loosely called a "mixed regime", or some full film and some contact.
« Last Edit: February 26, 2010, 06:37:04 PM by wdhewson »

Offline Inigo Montoya

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Re: So, what oils contain moly?
« Reply #18 on: February 26, 2010, 07:16:25 AM »
Lubrication is still the more important aspect because NO part hardened or not, would last very long in an engine without lube. However, softer parts will last longer because of lube.
So I am guessing you dont use oil in your engines and just rely on hardened components to last right?

Mortimer

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Re: So, what oils contain moly?
« Reply #19 on: February 26, 2010, 08:41:30 AM »
To answer the original question: Shell Retinax and Shell Alvania are both molybdenum greases, those are the two I know of that large manufacturers currently use. Used to be very popular, now slightly going out of fashion among some.

In plain bearing (shells, cam journals etc.) it is wonderful, but use SPARINGLY and definitely NOT in your clutch - you will regret it. The moly when heated in the clutch seems to become incredibly viscous, and will cause it to jam up a lot more than you'd want!

Hope that's useful  :)

Offline Frankenkit

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Re: So, what oils contain moly?
« Reply #20 on: February 26, 2010, 03:10:00 PM »
OP's talking about oil with moly... not grease with moly unless I'm mistaken.
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Cormac

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Re: So, what oils contain moly? Answered.
« Reply #21 on: February 26, 2010, 05:37:11 PM »
Touche, after I got back to work I realized that I had completely forgoten about cams, rockers, pushrods, valves.... Duh. And I always use cast-iron rings, and high nickel content blocks (whenever possible) on my engines. I don't mind replacing rings every few years, but I hate to bore... Unless I'm looking for displacement. Seems like every chevy I've opened up has chrome rings in perfect shape and a .030 egged hole. Can't think of mouse that I haven't had to punch at least .030...

Everybody else, thanks much, the question has been answered. That link of Bobbys rocks, by the way.