Topic: Not Charging CB550K [Problem Solved!] [Problem Broken Again!]

[campbmic]

I've read quite a lot of threads on here about charging issues and I've read the electronic FAQ. However, electrics just seem to confuse the crap out of me so I was wondering if someone might be able to explain it in simpler terms.

I just rebuilt me 75 CB550K1 barn find and I was testing it out last night. I drove it about 20 miles all on the highway around 6-7k. This is the farthest I've ever driven it. After about 15 miles I noticed the headlight was very dim and about 5 miles from home it died on me. I pushed it about 1 mile then was bale to start it and ride about 1 mile before it died. I did this twice then on the third time it wouldn't start no matter how far I pushed it.

I purchased one of these multimeters from autozone but this is about as far as I got! I really no nothing about electronics

Multimeter link
http://www.autozone.com/autozone/catalog/accessories/accProductDetails.jsp;jsessionid=9020F3CEA00F8B36ACE3B0C3104AF706.diyprod2-b2c12?counter=0&categoryDisplayName=Tools&fromString=search&itemIdentifier=449322_0_0_&productId=449322&sortType=&parentId=6-10&filterByKeyWord=Actron&categoryNValue=100006&navValue=101871&fromWhere=Brand&itemId=1871-10&displayName=Multimeter&store=1518&skuDisplayName=Analog+pocket+electrical+tester+measures+AC/DC+voltage%2C+DC+current%2C+Ohms%2C+and+decibels+also+tests+1.5+and+9+Volts+batteries&brandName=Actron
 

[campbmic]

Addition:

I've charged the battery some and the headlight is still dim. When I start the bike the headlight STAYS dim

[Dead Bound]

I just installed a Dyna-S ignition and now I seem to be having the same problem. 

[campbmic]

Also, my ignition has
1) The out position
2) Dot
3) Dot
4) The words "Ignition"

The key can be removed in the #1 and #3 position but after the number 3 position it has the words ignition. I've always ran it in position #2 thats correct right?

[TwoTired]

Can you fully charge the battery with an external charger?
After that...
Then measure the battery voltage after it is off the charger for two hours.  Write that measurement down, report.
Install on bike, remove headlamp fuse (or switch it off).
Measure battery voltage at idle, 2000, 3000, 4000, and 5000 RPM.  Write down the measurements and report.

[campbmic]

I took my battery to Autozone and had them charge it up to 12V then it ran down because my bike wasn't charging. Had them charge it again and it ran down. Had them charge it again, then experienced the night of pushing my bike which was told in the earlier post. I took it back and had them charge it again. I've been running some tests to try and figure out the problem and now its at 9V. The battery is good, it can still be charged at autozone but my bike isn't charging it.

I put it on the bike and ran the idle tests that you suggested and the needle on my multimeter doesn't move at all. Not at any rpms, I tested 1k through 5k.

[TwoTired]

In electrical troubleshooting, numbers matter.

"It doesn't work" is not a number and of very little value in diagnosing electrical faults.

FYI, Autozone doesn't charge it to 12V.  They should charge it to 14.5 V and it should read 12.6V removed from the charger and after a 2 hour rest.

The charging system consists of the stator, the field coil, the rectifier, the Voltage regulator, and all the interconnecting wires between it and the battery.  Replace all those components with new or known good components and the bike will charge the battery again.

Good luck with your bike!

[campbmic]

Thanks for your help TT but replacing the entire charging system doesn't seem like the most cost efficient means of fixing my bike's charging issue. Hopefully someone will come along shortly who knows how to trouble shoot these charging systems.

I tried to follow this fault finding page
http://www.electrosport.com/technical-resources/library/diagnosis/pdf/fault-finding-diagram.pdf

But was somewhat confused on operating my MM and also the fact that the guide Regulator and Rectifier seem to be one unit. If someone knows of a page similar to this but for a 75 550 please let me know! 

[scottly]

The replace-it-all approach to trouble shooting suggested by T T is called "shotgunning" and is the preferred method of hacks.
Check out the recent thread on stators and fields for starters; it may give you some insight into how to use your meter. There ARE people here who aren't TOO Tired to help.

[TwoTired]

Thanks for your help TT but replacing the entire charging system doesn't seem like the most cost efficient means of fixing my bike's charging issue. Hopefully someone will come along shortly who knows how to trouble shoot these charging systems.

You're right, the most efficient way to repair this is to probe strategic points in the charging system and analyze the numbers found.
It's a shame I'm too dumb and don't know how to do this without getting numbers to analyze.

Hopefully, someone gifted with clairvoyance will be along to tell exactly what's wrong with your bike.  Otherwise, you might want to look in the Honda shop manual to make progress without replacing everything.

Cheers,

[campbmic]

I've been running some tests to try and figure out the problem and now its at 9V. The battery is good, it can still be charged at autozone but my bike isn't charging it.

I put it on the bike and ran the idle tests that you suggested and the needle on my multimeter doesn't move at all. Not at any rpms, I tested 1k through 5k.

The needle is still at 9V its not charging at all. I can't get it exact because its an analog not MM. At 1k,2k,3k,4,5k the voltage is still 9K

[scottly]

At 9V, your battery is dead. (did you turn off the headlight/ remove the fuse as TT suggested?) Your regulator should have 3 wires. One is connected to the ignition switch, one is connected the the field, and one is connected to ground. With the key on, engine not running, you should measure battery voltage (whatever it is at the time) on 2 of these leads, and 0V on the third, WITH the regulator connected. If you only have battery voltage on one (the IGN), and 0V on 2, both the ground and the field, I would suspect a bad regulator.

[campbmic]

I had to put the fuse for the headlight back in in order to get any type of reading from my regulator, is this normal? I tested the regulator and here are the results.

Battery = 9V

Regulator Wires:
White = 8V
Black = 8V
Green = 0V

I think the reason that the wires are 1V less than the battery is because my multimeter is pretty touchy and hard to make a 100% connection. Thanks Scottly! Also, when I got the bike the starter button was smashed and I have since disconnected it at the control would this interfere at all?

What would be the next test for me to run?

[scottly]

First, you need to charge your battery. It can't be properly done in 15 minutes, or even an hour. If you can afford it, buy a properly sized charger.
Go ahead and do the tests with your ohm meter of the stator. Don't be concerned with absolute readings; you should be able to read very low readings, like when you short the meter probes together, between all combinations of the three wires, a-b, a-c, b-c. As long as all 3 readings are similar, it passes this test.  

[campbmic]

Well I found this diagram which is a lot more clear then the workshop manual
 http://oldmanhonda.com/MC/WiringDiagrams/CB550.jpg
I tested the three yellow wires coming out of the Alternator and going into the Rectifier. I tested them with a circuit tester. When the bike was off they had no power. When the bike was idleing the light in the circuit tester was very weak. When the bike revved the light in the circuit tester was bright.

I'm going to go pick up my backup battery I dropped off at Autozone so they should help. Does the test I ran mean that the alternator is good?

[scottly]

Hmm, by circuit tester, I assume you mean a light built into an icepick? (shudder, though they do have their place) Your test may indeed indicate the alternator and regulator are working, and make your rectifier suspect. Set your meter to AC volts, and, with the motor running at higher RPM, see what you read.

[campbmic]

I don't know anything about electrics does the entire bike have AC power or does it switch from AC to DC etc?

[scottly]

The bike runs on DC, the rectifier converts the AC from the Alternator to DC. If you read AC coming out of the rectifier, going into the battery, the battery will Not charge, and it means your rectifier isn't rectifying.

[scottly]

Sorry, I forgot you have an analog meter. Do the AC voltage test with a digital meter. (analog meters sometimes "cheat' to measure AC V). Beg, borrow, steal.... 

[campbmic]

My multimeter also has an AC function. I tested on both AC and DC mode and got the following;

Yellow wires going from alternator to rectifier
#1 = 4 ACV while engine is running
#2 = 4 ACV while engine is running
#3 = 4 ACV while engine is running

Red/White wire going from rectifier to battery

18 ACV while engine is running
20 ACV while engine is off
9 DCv while engine is running
10 DCV while engine is off

Remember my battery is only at 10 DCV

This confuses me a bit.
- The Yellow wires all carry AC from the alternator to the rectifier.
- The Red/White wire is connected to the battery is that why it has DC power?
- The rectifier turns the Yellow AC into DC which exits to the batter via the Red/White wire.

If this is all correct then it means my rectifier is bad right?

[scottly]

Your readings of AC volts even without the motor running is what I meant about analog meters "cheating" when reading AC.
Anyway, given that I don't like to trouble shoot by throwing expensive parts at a problem, I would guess, repeat, guess, that you have a bad rectifier.

(Note that a rectifier can fail in several different ways, from "shorts" to "opens", and the rectifier is comprised of 6 diodes, that can fail individually. This is very hard to trouble shoot, even with technical training) 

[campbmic]

Thanks a lot for your help Scottly! Did I getthe basic concept correct of how the charging system works after the alternator produces an AC current;

- The Yellow wires all carry AC from the alternator to the rectifier.
- The rectifier turns the Yellow AC power into DC power which exits to the batter via the Red/White wire.
-The Red/White wire is always connected to the 12V supply so it should always have a DC current in it.

If this is all correct I think tomorrow I will work on installing a new rectifier on the cheap. I've been wanting to relocate my electronics and having a small rectifier like one of these cheap ones seems to be a great solution.

http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=12465.0

[scottly]

Happy to be of help! Keep us posted so we all might learn from your experience.

[campbmic]

Well I put in a new rectifier and it still isn't charging! My battery is now down to about 6-8 Volts. I have a newly charge done at about 12.6 volts as well but I'm using the 6-8 volt battery so I can tell when the charging system starts to charge it.

I have about 4-6 AC volts total coming from all of the yellow wires going into the rectifier combined. So why isn't it charging?

[scottly]

Your AC readings really don't mean much, as I've already mentioned. You mean, by still not charging, that the voltage at the battery, with the motor running, does not increase at all? It will Not jump up immediately to 14V, even with a good battery, much less one run down to 6V. Look for a slow rise in voltage, and remember these systems don't put out much at low rpm...