Topic: The Damn CB650 ignition

[426hemi]

   Sorry, folks.  Allow me to introduce myself.  I'm a 47 year old auto mechanic.  I've been working on cars for over 20 years, worked in a Honda dealership for 6 years.  When it comes to the things I love, I'm a picky SOB.  I want things perfect.
   I bought a CB650 on ebay a couple of years ago.  It was "lovingly restored" by a "retired engineer".  It looked shiny and new- so I paid more for it than the damn bike cost new.  The so-called "engineer" was a butcher. I was working on the thing the first week I had it home.
   Now understand, I REGRET NONE OF THIS.  I'm a man that is old enough to know better.  I messed up.  It certainly won't be my last mistake in life.  My problem is with the ignition system on this motorcycle.  The ignitor is made by OKI, a company that I am very familiar with from working on Honda automobiles.  MANY of this company's ignition products go (literally) hundreds of thousands of miles.  SOME of this company's ignition products barely go around the block.  To those of you "in the know", my CB650 ignitor has been reduced to the familiar "black goo" and behaves very erratically, when at all.
   I've corresponded with Mark ("Hondaman"), thoroughly researched the subject on THIS forum, and turned the internet inside-out in an attempt to find the BEST METHOD OF REPLACING THIS CRAP IGNITION SYSTEM WITH ONE THAT IS RELIABLE.  Any PROVEN, additional input would be GREATLY appreciated.  Thank You.

[scottly]

Sorry, I personally can't help with your problem. I can, however, welcome you to a wonderful forum.

Scott (413 wedge)

[Hush]

Welcome to the forum (our own little slice of Hell)
I presume you have an 82 CB650 as the older models did not seem to suffer from this problem but having also owned an 82 Custom 650 I feel your pain.
Some guys on here have resorted to making their own ignitors once the black tar like stuff ran out of the originals.
Check out the FAQs area for more information on replacement options.

[Pinhead]

I've been searching for upgrades for our ignition and this seems to be the best bet so far:

http://home.comcast.net/~loudgpz/GPZweb/Ignition/CBheiModCavCoil.html

[426hemi]

   Pin,
   Sorry for the delayed reply.  I was disappointed at the lack of response to this thread and basically started ignoring it.  I should've figured that the only guy who had posted (specifically about 1980's electronic ignitions) would be the best path to a solution.  There is a similar post concerning the "GM solution" that Marc (Hondaman) responded to, but I dismissed this alternative (for the most part) because of his response.
   First, thanks for a solution. 
   Second, do you and HM think it is THE solution ?  It has a LOT of appeal to an auto mechanic- even more so when you consider the availability of Chevrolet Cavalier ignition components.  If you have any ideas for improvement to this design, I would certainly appreciate them.  After I get the mechanics of placement, heat sink, harness routing, etc..  I will post the results. 
   For the record, I had nearly convinced myself that the Pazon ignitors were the only legitimate way to address this problem based on the scarcity of useful information and several contacts with Dyna customer service.  That's right, just a tick south of $300. The "GM alternative" will cost me less than a hundred- for parts I can find locally. 
THANK YOU.

[Hush]

If it works it works....let us know how you get on as this is a constant problem for 650 owners.

[Pinhead]

I'm torn between using the GM modules for my 650 project, or going fully programmable. I want vacuum advance to help with part throttle performance and gas mileage.

Here's the programmable unit that I'm considering, though I don't yet know if it is compatible with our pickup coils and am awaiting a reply to my inquiry.

[cb650PK]

The black GU oozing ignitors were featured on whole line of CB Hondas, so there is plenty to choose from on EBay.(dohc CB 750,900 and I don't know what else)

[Pinhead]

The black GU oozing ignitors were featured on whole line of CB Hondas, so there is plenty to choose from on EBay.(dohc CB 750,900 and I don't know what else)

'79-'86 CB 550, 650, 750, 900, 1000, 1100, CX's, and I believe GL's.

[cb650PK]

At least they used the same color gu as the air box upon which it ends up on. That was thoughtfull of them.

[Frankenkit]

the ignitors still work after the goo has melted out.  I don't think that's the main problem though.  The early 80s CB ignitions were all hatefully designed with the intention of frustrating and irritating the owners.    I'm going to just watch this thread because I'm still picking through a problem where my bike acts as if the battery is low when it's hot and won't spin the starter motor fast enough to start, even when batt. voltage is 12.7, lights are bright, and she starts right up after 5-10 minutes.  I guess only a lucky few get that 650 problem, but I have yet to see a 550 or 750 have it, so it must just be us.

[426hemi]

   Pin,
   Getting back to your 650 project/ IgniTech:  Vacuum advance??!  Doesn't the mechanical advance satisfy any partial throttle/mileage issues ?  I'm not familiar with your project, so let me apologize in advance.
   The reason that I'm psyched about the GM ignitor is that I can make it "plug and play".  In other words, I can easily stow another Hei module with some dielectric grease in the event of failure at the worst possible time.  Because, as I'm sure you know, THAT is the time when Oki ignitors are likely to fail....

[Frankenkit]

Pinhead is our resident incurable tinkerer.  He and Soos are incredibly good at what they do.

[426hemi]

   Kit,
   Check your spark timing (ignition) with a timing light.  Either spark or cam timing that is out of adjustment can cause "hot start" issues.  If this is the bobber project bike that you sorted out in a prior thread- there is NO DOUBT in my mind that you will find the problem. 
   As for the Oki ignitors:  Once melted, they work normally IF YOU ARE LUCKY.  I used all of my luck on my first marriage.  One of my ignitors, like the first wife, works occasionally, if at all.  Like the first wife, I plan on getting rid of it.  On second thought, that sounds a bit mean-spirited, so allow me to say that the ten years that I got out of that Oki ignitor were the best ten years of my life !

[Pinhead]

If the timing is advanced too much then yep, Kit.

[426hemi]

   Kit,
   Wow.  This IS the bobber project.  Maybe I should go back and read it again.  Here is my take:  You need to load-test the battery stone cold, then load-test it again after engine is hot.  This will tell you if your charging system is working or not-period.  Then, you need to measure your starter draw with the engine cold- and measure it again with the engine hot.  A cold engine should have a higher starter draw than a warm one.  Let us say, for the sake of argument, that your engine has a higher starter draw when warm.  What can cause this ?  a dead cylinder.  Check your exhaust pipe temperatures when running (inductive probe).  A cold(er) pipe means you have a 3-cylinder with one cylinder that is very wet with fuel.  Fuel is not compressible, and wet cylinders can cause slow cranking.  The aforementioned spark timing can cause this no start, lest we forget "The Damn CB650 ignition"- ignition modules might also drop-out after reaching a higher temperature.  Are we having fun, yet ?

[Frankenkit]

well. it's not a bobber, but yeah... the testing shall continue.  I can about guarantee nothing's going to be wet with fuel, these bikes run pretty lean all the way around.  I know when Raven was working on my bike he decided to advance the timing rather arbitrarily... so that's where I'm starting as soon as I have some light to work by. Sorry for hijacking your thread.

[scottly]

If the timing is advanced too much then yep, Kit.

1+ Does the starter seem to turn slowly, yet evenly, or does it "buck", the motor turns, then slows, then turns? Hard to describe, but the latter is what advanced timing sounds like.

[scottly]

Advanced timing will also increase idle speed.

[Frankenkit]

[Hasenkopf]

I bet your advance weights are hanging up

[Hush]

Kit, did you check the starter motor armature segmented ends for clear separation?
It sounds more like a starter motor problem than anything else!
As you replaced the carbon pick-ups the only other part to fal would be the copper end part of the armature.
I can't remember, did you try the starter motor off Samson?

[Pinhead]

Isn't this thread supposed to be about alternate options for the CB650 ignition???

[Frankenkit]

yup. sorry again for the hijack.  I'll do static timing and put the results on the hot-start thread.

[cb650]

Called out by a pinhead.