Author Topic: from one scientist to the next...  (Read 10851 times)

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Offline wannabridin

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from one scientist to the next...
« on: March 19, 2010, 10:26:33 AM »
pretty amazing chart here!  an estimate of the entire amount of energy the universe has created since its existence ~14.5 billion years ago?  NICE!

just so you know, E=MC2, so based on the mass of all matter, there that many joules produced... 

i wonder if these calculations take into account dark matter?  if this is just our dimension?  energy expelled/entered through black holes and quantum tunnels?  zero point energy?  either way, impressive figure!



now here's something that will blow your mind...  before the big bang, there was NOTHING (we're only going from science here people), no space, no matter, no time, no existence.  the truest sense of the word NOTHING.  ZERO.  0.  DNE!  what is that??? 

some theoretical physicists argue that if the universe has a radius of lets say 15 billion light years (remember that from the big bang, the universe expanded in a roughly spherical shape for 15 billion years), that the FARTHEST anyone can see into the past is only 15 billion years.  this is easy to comprehend.  but what if an observer was at the edge of star formation, close to the cosmic "dark ages" right at the outskirts of the cosmic background radiation??  would they be able to see (with a powerful enough telescope mind you) an estimated 30 billion light years across???  the argument comes from saying that at the edge of the sphere, there simply can not exist nothing...  it's a nearly impossible concept to comprehend, it's like trying to "see" a 5th dimension, let alone the 22 that "exist" today. 

the argument states that the universe is and always has been infinite.  it goes on forever, and always has, and will.  another impossible concept, forever.  infinity, infinite, the complete opposite (in some senses of the word) of zero, nothingness.  it states that at the edge of this sphere, you wouldn't see the dark ages or background radiation, but instead, you'd see another 15 billion years into the past...  try to wrap your head around 0 and infinity existing simultaneously in the same plane at the same instant.  i don't know how that's possible?  how can i see, or comprehend matter and nothing existing together??? 

this has always bothered me...   :( :( :(  i can understand that for a macro plane to exist in the "real" world, one has to experience it.  X,Y, Z and time, sure, they're easy enough to experience.  just wave your hand around and watch the clock.  done!  ok, but what about the 18 other dimensions?  they're on the quantum scale, which is fine.  they exist somewhere i do not.  i highly doubt in my life time we'll be able to "see" another dimension, just because it's on such a higher level than our 4 that drive the macro world.  i guess i'm just ready for the G.U.T. (Grand Unified Theory), or the theory of everything.  by saying this, i'm basically ready for mankind to answer the question of "Why?" from a scientific standpoint.  i feel that if i asked God, He'd just say, "because it's good..." or something along those lines.  (THIS IS NOT A RELIGIOUS DISCUSSION!!!!!!)

it's always bothered me, well at least since my ignorance was expanded through the use of education, that everything has a smaller counterpoint.  at least down to the string level.  but what are strings???  i can't comprehend a quantum fluctuation...  i can't comprehend "pure" energy.  i CAN comprehend that energy IS the root piece of matter.  so this helps quell my mind sometimes...  what happens if they DO find the Higg's-Boson???  how windows will THAT open up in the field of quantum mechanics?  how will knowing that there IS a subatomic particle responsible for "MASS" help our current predicament of tying that world to ours???  i know that every particle effects every other particle in existence, one proton or electron on one side of the universe has a gravitational and electric "pull" on another proton or electron on the other side of the universe. 

what really gets me is the duality of particles.  has anyone ever read Heinlein's "Time for the Stars"?  it goes into the use of twins with telepathy abilities to communicate at close to the speed of light.  they're somehow linked together for relatively faster than light communication.  interesting read, Heinlein is a god of sci-fi!!  how can two particles share the same spin states no matter the distance??  it's one thing if they flip from spin up to spin down in the same magnetic or electric field, that's easy to understand.  but how can they do it irregardless of distance?!?!?!  quantum entanglement helps explain this a lot, but it still doesn't answer it like a mechanic saying "well your carbs aren't sync'd." 

i guess the whole point for my "rant" here is that my engineering/scientific brain clashes with my mechanic/fixxer-upper brain.  i want to know WHY everything works by knowing HOW it all works!  i want to know why, simply, so i can tell others!!!  like Einstein once said, "Any intelligent fool can make things bigger and more complex... It takes a touch of genius - and a lot of courage to move in the opposite direction."

sorry to go on and on, i'd just like to share some thoughts with others in the hopes that maybe a good honest discussion can ensue!  so please, comment/argue/rant away!!!  ;D
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Offline sangyo soichiro

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Re: from one scientist to the next...
« Reply #1 on: March 19, 2010, 10:54:01 AM »
I'm impressed with your excitement of the subject.  There are a few things that need 'touching up' in what you said, however.  Some little nit-picky things like that a GUT is not exactly the same thing as a TOE.  And other things that are a little more serious, like how the universe has evolved and how it's impossible to be "...at the edge of star formation, close to the cosmic "dark ages" right at the outskirts of the cosmic background radiation." 

I'd like to talk more about it, but I have to run right now.  Maybe later tonight.   :)


But I'll leave you with this little tidbit for a possible future discussion...

∞≠∞   ;)
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Offline Gordon

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Re: from one scientist to the next...
« Reply #2 on: March 19, 2010, 11:00:43 AM »
This makes me think of the Restaurant at The End of the Universe. ;D

Offline wannabridin

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Re: from one scientist to the next...
« Reply #3 on: March 19, 2010, 11:01:13 AM »
haha, nice!!  and i wasn't going for severe accuracy, i was going to get my thoughts out.  i don't have ANYONE to talk to about it, so ive been a bit down with it lately.  nobody in this world wants to LEARN anymore!!!  i was to be the MOST ignorant person ever when i die!!!  (think about it, from my above education comment)  

i do realize the TOE and GUT aren't the same thing, but the GUT is a strong step forward, at least with current knowledge and thought processes.

again, with the statement, i'm talking about a GROSSLY generalized/compartmentalized statement in regards to the "layering" (if you will) of the current universe.  there was the big bang, then the dark ages and then stars started forming and evolving into galaxies.  at least this is what we can "see" and by now i'm sure all those stars have died out, unless they're all brown dwarfs or red giants...  

here's a cartoon explaining what i'm talking about (the gross generalization)  but thanks for calling your your concern with my statements, it opens up even more areas for discussion and knowledge transfer!!  i look forward to hearing your thoughts!
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Offline wannabridin

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Re: from one scientist to the next...
« Reply #4 on: March 19, 2010, 11:02:25 AM »
i'm almost ashamed of myself for not have gotten around to reading any of Adam's works...  slap on the hands i know!  i even have the compete hitchhikers guide from B&N on my shelf!!!   >:(
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Offline Gordon

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Re: from one scientist to the next...
« Reply #5 on: March 19, 2010, 11:13:17 AM »
Have you ever seen "What the Bleep Do We Know?"?  If not, I think you'd really enjoy it.  Get the extended DVD set with the sub-heading called "Down the Rabbit Hole".  The only problem is it makes your brain hurt after watching it for a while. 

Offline wannabridin

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Re: from one scientist to the next...
« Reply #6 on: March 19, 2010, 11:40:13 AM »
i've seen bits and pieces, and it was quite enjoyable.  have you seen Carl Sagan's Cosmos?   ;D
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Offline kghost

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Re: from one scientist to the next...
« Reply #7 on: March 19, 2010, 11:45:01 AM »
So.....I'll have to rejet if I go to pods? ???

Couldn't resist.....sorry  ;D
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Offline sangyo soichiro

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Re: from one scientist to the next...
« Reply #8 on: March 19, 2010, 12:16:12 PM »
I'm still "on the run" so to speak, but just a quick note to maybe keep the conversation going.

What I meant by saying it's impossible to be at the edge of the cosmic microwave background (CMB) is this:
The universe has no edge, and no center.  This follows from the 'cosmological principle' which basically states that, on large scales, any observer in the universe at any location sees roughly the same thing (again, on large scales).  This principle follows from two properties of the universe; isotropy and homogeneity (again, on large scales).  


So there is no edge to the universe, and there is no center.  If the universe is infinite, this is an easy concept to grasp.

Yet the universe may... may, still be finite.  (Think about that for a while....) ;)


So that's why you can't get to the edge of the universe.  I didn't explain it in too much detail, but the gist of the argument is there.  

So how about being at the boundary of any two epochs, like, for example, at the edge between the dark ages and reionization?
The reason you can't be at the boundary of any two epochs is because we are seeing these epochs as they were in the past - not as they are 'now.'  They surely have evolved since the time we are seeing them.


More later....
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Offline BlindJoe

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Re: from one scientist to the next...
« Reply #9 on: March 19, 2010, 12:17:36 PM »
If you wish to make an apple pie from scratch you must first create the universe. Thats all I got.

Offline wannabridin

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Re: from one scientist to the next...
« Reply #10 on: March 19, 2010, 01:01:07 PM »
soichiro

i understand the large scale argument, but for a brief second, lets look at the universe AS a bubble from which the big bang originated.  i pointed out earlier that the universe is not what it was currently, but it's almost 15 billion years older than that, so lots has happened.  unless you could teleport yourself to that point in space, we'd have no clue what would happen.  and since some theorize that the "edge" of the universe is expanding faster than light since the basic laws of physics and quantum mechanics haven't quite been established.  this and it's expanding into nothingness, makes for an ever expanding, and therefore, ever accelerating universe.  if and when there might be a big collapse into another big bang?  that's up to time and fun loving thought experiments!   ;D

now back to the scale thoughts.  15 billion LIGHT years is quite a bit of distance, incomprehensible even, hell one light year is to that point!  amazing how distance can almost "stop" light, relatively that is...  but i'm saying that we should hop out of our little reasoning ship we're in and get into the ship that can do anything, one that moves at the speed of thought, aka instantly...  now lets just think about what it's like at the edge of space, at least what we can see now.  we have NO clue of knowing what happened to the 14 billion year old events we're currently witnessing now...

another one that's always bothered me, sure i understand we're looking into the past, but if those "early" galaxies and stars have been around for 15 billion years, then why are we still seeing them as 15 billion years old?  people say this is what the universe looked like 15 billion years ago, but wouldn't that mean that since the universe has been around for 15 billion years, and that for only a billion or so years it was "dark" that the light we're seeing from those stars is really about 29 billion years old???  15 billion to get here, and 14 billion since they started burning, which puts us at now....  what do you think about that???

the problem with these thought experiments is that they ALWAYS generate 10 more questions than even hypothesis'...  throw on top of that that mankind is "tainted" by it's own progress and we could just be pissing in the wind for how things truly "work".  we've all talked ourselves into our own knowledge base, and while we've experiments that can "prove" certain certainties, they're just that.  certainties to US, in our frame of reference.  i believe this is why we'll never have a ToE!!!  (Theory of Everything)  we just keep coming up with all these constants, or as i like to call them fudge factors, that make our experiments and equations work.  one day we'll run out of constants and be forced to REALLY prove how nature works, but by then i think we'll have "evolved" back into stardust or something.  we will become nature when we figure it out...

speaking of which, has anyone read Asimov's "The Last Question" on reversing entropy?  good read, i'll post it
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Offline wannabridin

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Re: from one scientist to the next...
« Reply #11 on: March 19, 2010, 01:01:51 PM »
Issac Asimov's "The Last Question"


How can entropy be reversed
The Last Question by Isaac Asimov © 1956

The last question was asked for the first time, half in jest, on May 21, 2061, at a time when humanity first stepped into the light. The question came about as a result of a five dollar bet over highballs, and it happened this way:

Alexander Adell and Bertram Lupov were two of the faithful attendants of Multivac. As well as any human beings could, they knew what lay behind the cold, clicking, flashing face -- miles and miles of face -- of that giant computer. They had at least a vague notion of the general plan of relays and circuits that had long since grown past the point where any single human could possibly have a firm grasp of the whole.

Multivac was self-adjusting and self-correcting. It had to be, for nothing human could adjust and correct it quickly enough or even adequately enough -- so Adell and Lupov attended the monstrous giant only lightly and superficially, yet as well as any men could. They fed it data, adjusted questions to its needs and translated the answers that were issued. Certainly they, and all others like them, were fully entitled to share In the glory that was Multivac's.

For decades, Multivac had helped design the ships and plot the trajectories that enabled man to reach the Moon, Mars, and Venus, but past that, Earth's poor resources could not support the ships. Too much energy was needed for the long trips. Earth exploited its coal and uranium with increasing efficiency, but there was only so much of both.

But slowly Multivac learned enough to answer deeper questions more fundamentally, and on May 14, 2061, what had been theory, became fact.

The energy of the sun was stored, converted, and utilized directly on a planet-wide scale. All Earth turned off its burning coal, its fissioning uranium, and flipped the switch that connected all of it to a small station, one mile in diameter, circling the Earth at half the distance of the Moon. All Earth ran by invisible beams of sunpower.

Seven days had not sufficed to dim the glory of it and Adell and Lupov finally managed to escape from the public function, and to meet in quiet where no one would think of looking for them, in the deserted underground chambers, where portions of the mighty buried body of Multivac showed. Unattended, idling, sorting data with contented lazy clickings, Multivac, too, had earned its vacation and the boys appreciated that. They had no intention, originally, of disturbing it.

They had brought a bottle with them, and their only concern at the moment was to relax in the company of each other and the bottle.

"It's amazing when you think of it," said Adell. His broad face had lines of weariness in it, and he stirred his drink slowly with a glass rod, watching the cubes of ice slur clumsily about. "All the energy we can possibly ever use for free. Enough energy, if we wanted to draw on it, to melt all Earth into a big drop of impure liquid iron, and still never miss the energy so used. All the energy we could ever use, forever and forever and forever."

Lupov cocked his head sideways. He had a trick of doing that when he wanted to be contrary, and he wanted to be contrary now, partly because he had had to carry the ice and glassware. "Not forever," he said.

"Oh, hell, just about forever. Till the sun runs down, Bert."

"That's not forever."

"All right, then. Billions and billions of years. Twenty billion, maybe. Are you satisfied?"

Lupov put his fingers through his thinning hair as though to reassure himself that some was still left and sipped gently at his own drink. "Twenty billion years isn't forever."

"Will, it will last our time, won't it?"

"So would the coal and uranium."

"All right, but now we can hook up each individual spaceship to the Solar Station, and it can go to Pluto and back a million times without ever worrying about fuel. You can't do THAT on coal and uranium. Ask Multivac, if you don't believe me."

"I don't have to ask Multivac. I know that."

"Then stop running down what Multivac's done for us," said Adell, blazing up. "It did all right."

"Who says it didn't? What I say is that a sun won't last forever. That's all I'm saying. We're safe for twenty billion years, but then what?" Lupov pointed a slightly shaky finger at the other. "And don't say we'll switch to another sun."

There was silence for a while. Adell put his glass to his lips only occasionally, and Lupov's eyes slowly closed. They rested.

Then Lupov's eyes snapped open. "You're thinking we'll switch to another sun when ours is done, aren't you?"

"I'm not thinking."

"Sure you are. You're weak on logic, that's the trouble with you. You're like the guy in the story who was caught in a sudden shower and Who ran to a grove of trees and got under one. He wasn't worried, you see, because he figured when one tree got wet through, he would just get under another one."

"I get it," said Adell. "Don't shout. When the sun is done, the other stars will be gone, too."

"Darn right they will," muttered Lupov. "It all had a beginning in the original cosmic explosion, whatever that was, and it'll all have an end when all the stars run down. Some run down faster than others. Hell, the giants won't last a hundred million years. The sun will last twenty billion years and maybe the dwarfs will last a hundred billion for all the good they are. But just give us a trillion years and everything will be dark. Entropy has to increase to maximum, that's all."

"I know all about entropy," said Adell, standing on his dignity.

"The hell you do."

"I know as much as you do."

"Then you know everything's got to run down someday."

"All right. Who says they won't?"

"You did, you poor sap. You said we had all the energy we needed, forever. You said 'forever.'"

"It was Adell's turn to be contrary. "Maybe we can build things up again someday," he said.

"Never."

"Why not? Someday."

"Never."

"Ask Multivac."

"You ask Multivac. I dare you. Five dollars says it can't be done."

Adell was just drunk enough to try, just sober enough to be able to phrase the necessary symbols and operations into a question which, in words, might have corresponded to this: Will mankind one day without the net expenditure of energy be able to restore the sun to its full youthfulness even after it had died of old age?

Or maybe it could be put more simply like this: How can the net amount of entropy of the universe be massively decreased?

Multivac fell dead and silent. The slow flashing of lights ceased, the distant sounds of clicking relays ended.

Then, just as the frightened technicians felt they could hold their breath no longer, there was a sudden springing to life of the teletype attached to that portion of Multivac. Five words were printed: INSUFFICIENT DATA FOR MEANINGFUL ANSWER.

"No bet," whispered Lupov. They left hurriedly.

By next morning, the two, plagued with throbbing head and cottony mouth, had forgotten about the incident.

Jerrodd, Jerrodine, and Jerrodette I and II watched the starry picture in the visiplate change as the passage through hyperspace was completed in its non-time lapse. At once, the even powdering of stars gave way to the predominance of a single bright marble-disk, centered.

"That's X-23," said Jerrodd confidently. His thin hands clamped tightly behind his back and the knuckles whitened.

The little Jerrodettes, both girls, had experienced the hyperspace passage for the first time in their lives and were self-conscious over the momentary sensation of inside-outness. They buried their giggles and chased one another wildly about their mother, screaming, "We've reached X-23 -- we've reached X-23 -- we've ----"

"Quiet, children," said Jerrodine sharply. "Are you sure, Jerrodd?"

"What is there to be but sure?" asked Jerrodd, glancing up at the bulge of featureless metal just under the ceiling. It ran the length of the room, disappearing through the wall at either end. It was as long as the ship.

Jerrodd scarcely knew a thing about the thick rod of metal except that it was called a Microvac, that one asked it questions if one wished; that if one did not it still had its task of guiding the ship to a preordered destination; of feeding on energies from the various Sub-galactic Power Stations; of computing the equations for the hyperspacial jumps.

Jerrodd and his family had only to wait and live in the comfortable residence quarters of the ship.

Someone had once told Jerrodd that the "ac" at the end of "Microvac" stood for "analog computer" in ancient English, but he was on the edge of forgetting even that.

Jerrodine's eyes were moist as she watched the visiplate. "I can't help it. I feel funny about leaving Earth."

"Why for Pete's sake?" demanded Jerrodd. "We had nothing there. We'll have everything on X-23. You won't be alone. You won't be a pioneer. There are over a million people on the planet already. Good Lord, our great grandchildren will be looking for new worlds because X-23 will be overcrowded."

Then, after a reflective pause, "I tell you, it's a lucky thing the computers worked out interstellar travel the way the race is growing."

"I know, I know," said Jerrodine miserably.

Jerrodette I said promptly, "Our Microvac is the best Microvac in the world."

"I think so, too," said Jerrodd, tousling her hair.

It was a nice feeling to have a Microvac of your own and Jerrodd was glad he was part of his generation and no other. In his father's youth, the only computers had been tremendous machines taking up a hundred square miles of land. There was only one to a planet. Planetary ACs they were called. They had been growing in size steadily for a thousand years and then, all at once, came refinement. In place of transistors had come molecular valves so that even the largest Planetary AC could be put into a space only half the volume of a spaceship.

Jerrodd felt uplifted, as he always did when he thought that his own personal Microvac was many times more complicated than the ancient and primitive Multivac that had first tamed the Sun, and almost as complicated as Earth's Planetary AC (the largest) that had first solved the problem of hyperspatial travel and had made trips to the stars possible.

"So many stars, so many planets," sighed Jerrodine, busy with her own thoughts. "I suppose families will be going out to new planets forever, the way we are now."

"Not forever," said Jerrodd, with a smile. "It will all stop someday, but not for billions of years. Many billions. Even the stars run down, you know. Entropy must increase."

"What's entropy, daddy?" shrilled Jerrodette II.

"Entropy, little sweet, is just a word which means the amount of running-down of the universe. Everything runs down, you know, like your little walkie-talkie robot, remember?"

"Can't you just put in a new power-unit, like with my robot?"

The stars are the power-units, dear. Once they're gone, there are no more power-units."

Jerrodette I at once set up a howl. "Don't let them, daddy. Don't let the stars run down."

"Now look what you've done, " whispered Jerrodine, exasperated.

"How was I to know it would frighten them?" Jerrodd whispered back.

"Ask the Microvac," wailed Jerrodette I. "Ask him how to turn the stars on again."

"Go ahead," said Jerrodine. "It will quiet them down." (Jerrodette II was beginning to cry, also.)

Jarrodd shrugged. "Now, now, honeys. I'll ask Microvac. Don't worry, he'll tell us."

He asked the Microvac, adding quickly, "Print the answer."

Jerrodd cupped the strip of thin cellufilm and said cheerfully, "See now, the Microvac says it will take care of everything when the time comes so don't worry."

Jerrodine said, "and now children, it's time for bed. We'll be in our new home soon."

Jerrodd read the words on the cellufilm again before destroying it: INSUFFICIENT DATA FOR A MEANINGFUL ANSWER.

He shrugged and looked at the visiplate. X-23 was just ahead.

VJ-23X of Lameth stared into the black depths of the three-dimensional, small-scale map of the Galaxy and said, "Are we ridiculous, I wonder, in being so concerned about the matter?"

MQ-17J of Nicron shook his head. "I think not. You know the Galaxy will be filled in five years at the present rate of expansion."

Both seemed in their early twenties, both were tall and perfectly formed.

"Still," said VJ-23X, "I hesitate to submit a pessimistic report to the Galactic Council."

"I wouldn't consider any other kind of report. Stir them up a bit. We've got to stir them up."

VJ-23X sighed. "Space is infinite. A hundred billion Galaxies are there for the taking. More."

"A hundred billion is not infinite and it's getting less infinite all the time. Consider! Twenty thousand years ago, mankind first solved the problem of utilizing stellar energy, and a few centuries later, interstellar travel became possible. It took mankind a million years to fill one small world and then only fifteen thousand years to fill the rest of the Galaxy. Now the population doubles every ten years --"

VJ-23X interrupted. "We can thank immortality for that."

"Very well. Immortality exists and we have to take it into account. I admit it has its seamy side, this immortality. The Galactic AC has solved many problems for us, but in solving the problems of preventing old age and death, it has undone all its other solutions."

"Yet you wouldn't want to abandon life, I suppose."

"Not at all," snapped MQ-17J, softening it at once to, "Not yet. I'm by no means old enough. How old are you?"

"Two hundred twenty-three. And you?"

"I'm still under two hundred. --But to get back to my point. Population doubles every ten years. Once this Galaxy is filled, we'll have another filled in ten years. Another ten years and we'll have filled two more. Another decade, four more. In a hundred years, we'll have filled a thousand Galaxies. In a thousand years, a million Galaxies. In ten thousand years, the entire known Universe. Then what?"

VJ-23X said, "As a side issue, there's a problem of transportation. I wonder how many sunpower units it will take to move Galaxies of individuals from one Galaxy to the next."

"A very good point. Already, mankind consumes two sunpower units per year."

"Most of it's wasted. After all, our own Galaxy alone pours out a thousand sunpower units a year and we only use two of those."

"Granted, but even with a hundred per cent efficiency, we can only stave off the end. Our energy requirements are going up in geometric progression even faster than our population. We'll run out of energy even sooner than we run out of Galaxies. A good point. A very good point."

"We'll just have to build new stars out of interstellar gas."

"Or out of dissipated heat?" asked MQ-17J, sarcastically.

"There may be some way to reverse entropy. We ought to ask the Galactic AC."

VJ-23X was not really serious, but MQ-17J pulled out his AC-contact from his pocket and placed it on the table before him.

"I've half a mind to," he said. "It's something the human race will have to face someday."

He stared somberly at his small AC-contact. It was only two inches cubed and nothing in itself, but it was connected through hyperspace with the great Galactic AC that served all mankind. Hyperspace considered, it was an integral part of the Galactic AC.

MQ-17J paused to wonder if someday in his immortal life he would get to see the Galactic AC. It was on a little world of its own, a spider webbing of force-beams holding the matter within which surges of sub-mesons took the place of the old clumsy molecular valves. Yet despite it's sub-etheric workings, the Galactic AC was known to be a full thousand feet across.

MQ-17J asked suddenly of his AC-contact, "Can entropy ever be reversed?"

VJ-23X looked startled and said at once, "Oh, say, I didn't really mean to have you ask that."

"Why not?"

"We both know entropy can't be reversed. You can't turn smoke and ash back into a tree."

"Do you have trees on your world?" asked MQ-17J.

The sound of the Galactic AC startled them into silence. Its voice came thin and beautiful out of the small AC-contact on the desk. It said: THERE IS INSUFFICIENT DATA FOR A MEANINGFUL ANSWER.

VJ-23X said, "See!"

The two men thereupon returned to the question of the report they were to make to the Galactic Council.

Zee Prime's mind spanned the new Galaxy with a faint interest in the countless twists of stars that powdered it. He had never seen this one before. Would he ever see them all? So many of them, each with its load of humanity - but a load that was almost a dead weight. More and more, the real essence of men was to be found out here, in space.

Minds, not bodies! The immortal bodies remained back on the planets, in suspension over the eons. Sometimes they roused for material activity but that was growing rarer. Few new individuals were coming into existence to join the incredibly mighty throng, but what matter? There was little room in the Universe for new individuals.

Zee Prime was roused out of his reverie upon coming across the wispy tendrils of another mind.

"I am Zee Prime," said Zee Prime. "And you?"

"I am Dee Sub Wun. Your Galaxy?"

"We call it only the Galaxy. And you?"

"We call ours the same. All men call their Galaxy their Galaxy and nothing more. Why not?"

"True. Since all Galaxies are the same."

"Not all Galaxies. On one particular Galaxy the race of man must have originated. That makes it different."

Zee Prime said, "On which one?"

"I cannot say. The Universal AC would know."

"Shall we ask him? I am suddenly curious."

Zee Prime's perceptions broadened until the Galaxies themselves shrunk and became a new, more diffuse powdering on a much larger background. So many hundreds of billions of them, all with their immortal beings, all carrying their load of intelligences with minds that drifted freely through space. And yet one of them was unique among them all in being the originals Galaxy. One of them had, in its vague and distant past, a period when it was the only Galaxy populated by man.

Zee Prime was consumed with curiosity to see this Galaxy and called, out: "Universal AC! On which Galaxy did mankind originate?"

The Universal AC heard, for on every world and throughout space, it had its receptors ready, and each receptor lead through hyperspace to some unknown point where the Universal AC kept itself aloof.

Zee Prime knew of only one man whose thoughts had penetrated within sensing distance of Universal AC, and he reported only a shining globe, two feet across, difficult to see.

"But how can that be all of Universal AC?" Zee Prime had asked.

"Most of it, " had been the answer, "is in hyperspace. In what form it is there I cannot imagine."

Nor could anyone, for the day had long since passed, Zee Prime knew, when any man had any part of the making of a universal AC. Each Universal AC designed and constructed its successor. Each, during its existence of a million years or more accumulated the necessary data to build a better and more intricate, more capable successor in which its own store of data and individuality would be submerged.

The Universal AC interrupted Zee Prime's wandering thoughts, not with words, but with guidance. Zee Prime's mentality was guided into the dim sea of Galaxies and one in particular enlarged into stars.

A thought came, infinitely distant, but infinitely clear. "THIS IS THE ORIGINAL GALAXY OF MAN."

But it was the same after all, the same as any other, and Zee Prime stifled his disappointment.

Dee Sub Wun, whose mind had accompanied the other, said suddenly, "And Is one of these stars the original star of Man?"

The Universal AC said, "MAN'S ORIGINAL STAR HAS GONE NOVA. IT IS NOW A WHITE DWARF."

"Did the men upon it die?" asked Zee Prime, startled and without thinking.

The Universal AC said, "A NEW WORLD, AS IN SUCH CASES, WAS CONSTRUCTED FOR THEIR PHYSICAL BODIES IN TIME."

"Yes, of course," said Zee Prime, but a sense of loss overwhelmed him even so. His mind released its hold on the original Galaxy of Man, let it spring back and lose itself among the blurred pin points. He never wanted to see it again.

Dee Sub Wun said, "What is wrong?"

"The stars are dying. The original star is dead."

"They must all die. Why not?"

"But when all energy is gone, our bodies will finally die, and you and I with them."

"It will take billions of years."

"I do not wish it to happen even after billions of years. Universal AC! How may stars be kept from dying?"

Dee sub Wun said in amusement, "You're asking how entropy might be reversed in direction."

And the Universal AC answered. "THERE IS AS YET INSUFFICIENT DATA FOR A MEANINGFUL ANSWER."

Zee Prime's thoughts fled back to his own Galaxy. He gave no further thought to Dee Sub Wun, whose body might be waiting on a galaxy a trillion light-years away, or on the star next to Zee Prime's own. It didn't matter.

Unhappily, Zee Prime began collecting interstellar hydrogen out of which to build a small star of his own. If the stars must someday die, at least some could yet be built.

Man considered with himself, for in a way, Man, mentally, was one. He consisted of a trillion, trillion, trillion ageless bodies, each in its place, each resting quiet and incorruptible, each cared for by perfect automatons, equally incorruptible, while the minds of all the bodies freely melted one into the other, indistinguishable.

Man said, "The Universe is dying."

Man looked about at the dimming Galaxies. The giant stars, spendthrifts, were gone long ago, back in the dimmest of the dim far past. Almost all stars were white dwarfs, fading to the end.

New stars had been built of the dust between the stars, some by natural processes, some by Man himself, and those were going, too. White dwarfs might yet be crashed together and of the mighty forces so released, new stars built, but only one star for every thousand white dwarfs destroyed, and those would come to an end, too.

Man said, "Carefully husbanded, as directed by the Cosmic AC, the energy that is even yet left in all the Universe will last for billions of years."

"But even so," said Man, "eventually it will all come to an end. However it may be husbanded, however stretched out, the energy once expended is gone and cannot be restored. Entropy must increase to the maximum."

Man said, "Can entropy not be reversed? Let us ask the Cosmic AC."

The Cosmic AC surrounded them but not in space. Not a fragment of it was in space. It was in hyperspace and made of something that was neither matter nor energy. The question of its size and Nature no longer had meaning to any terms that Man could comprehend.

"Cosmic AC," said Man, "How may entropy be reversed?"

The Cosmic AC said, "THERE IS AS YET INSUFFICIENT DATA FOR A MEANINGFUL ANSWER."

Man said, "Collect additional data."

The Cosmic AC said, "I WILL DO SO. I HAVE BEEN DOING SO FOR A HUNDRED BILLION YEARS. MY PREDECESSORS AND I HAVE BEEN ASKED THIS QUESTION MANY TIMES. ALL THE DATA I HAVE REMAINS INSUFFICIENT."

"Will there come a time," said Man, "when data will be sufficient or is the problem insoluble in all conceivable circumstances?"

The Cosmic AC said, "NO PROBLEM IS INSOLUBLE IN ALL CONCEIVABLE CIRCUMSTANCES."

Man said, "When will you have enough data to answer the question?"

"THERE IS AS YET INSUFFICIENT DATA FOR A MEANINGFUL ANSWER."

"Will you keep working on it?" asked Man.

The Cosmic AC said, "I WILL."

Man said, "We shall wait."

"The stars and Galaxies died and snuffed out, and space grew black after ten trillion years of running down.

One by one Man fused with AC, each physical body losing its mental identity in a manner that was somehow not a loss but a gain.

Man's last mind paused before fusion, looking over a space that included nothing but the dregs of one last dark star and nothing besides but incredibly thin matter, agitated randomly by the tag ends of heat wearing out, asymptotically, to the absolute zero.

Man said, "AC, is this the end? Can this chaos not be reversed into the Universe once more? Can that not be done?"

AC said, "THERE IS AS YET INSUFFICIENT DATA FOR A MEANINGFUL ANSWER."

Man's last mind fused and only AC existed -- and that in hyperspace.

Matter and energy had ended and with it, space and time. Even AC existed only for the sake of the one last question that it had never answered from the time a half-drunken computer ten trillion years before had asked the question of a computer that was to AC far less than was a man to Man.

All other questions had been answered, and until this last question was answered also, AC might not release his consciousness.

All collected data had come to a final end. Nothing was left to be collected.

But all collected data had yet to be completely correlated and put together in all possible relationships.

A timeless interval was spent in doing that.

And it came to pass that AC learned how to reverse the direction of entropy.

But there was now no man to whom AC might give the answer of the last question. No matter. The answer -- by demonstration -- would take care of that, too.

For another timeless interval, AC thought how best to do this. Carefully, AC organized the program.

The consciousness of AC encompassed all of what had once been a Universe and brooded over what was now Chaos. Step by step, it must be done.

And AC said, "LET THERE BE LIGHT!"

And there was light----
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Offline sangyo soichiro

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Re: from one scientist to the next...
« Reply #12 on: March 19, 2010, 02:26:39 PM »
now back to the scale thoughts.  15 billion LIGHT years is quite a bit of distance, incomprehensible even, hell one light year is to that point!  amazing how distance can almost "stop" light, relatively that is...  but i'm saying that we should hop out of our little reasoning ship we're in and get into the ship that can do anything, one that moves at the speed of thought, aka instantly...  now lets just think about what it's like at the edge of space, at least what we can see now.  we have NO clue of knowing what happened to the 14 billion year old events we're currently witnessing now...

But there is no edge of space.  I see what you're saying though, I guess I'm just not comfortable jumping the ship of reason.  If you want to imagine what it was like in these epochs (and many cosmologists also want to), we have to rely on physical principles and "rewind the clock," so to speak.

Also, I am more optimistic on what we know about the universe.  I believe we know a great deal.  And I think we know a great deal of what happened in the past, and how it has evolved, even if what we see is a snapshot in the time line.  Read Steven Weinberg's The First Three Minutes (1977).  That book was written before inflation was proposed (early '80s), and before we knew about dark energy, but it still is probably the best account of the big bang in the popular science section.

Quote
another one that's always bothered me, sure i understand we're looking into the past, but if those "early" galaxies and stars have been around for 15 billion years, then why are we still seeing them as 15 billion years old?  people say this is what the universe looked like 15 billion years ago, but wouldn't that mean that since the universe has been around for 15 billion years, and that for only a billion or so years it was "dark" that the light we're seeing from those stars is really about 29 billion years old???  15 billion to get here, and 14 billion since they started burning, which puts us at now....  what do you think about that???

I don't see how you are adding up the numbers to get 29 Gyr.  (Of course, I see 14 + 15 = 29, but I don't see the reasoning.)

We see the galaxies as they were however long ago it was that their light was emitted.  If it was 13 billion years ago (for example), then they would be pretty young.  Fortunately, it is not only the distance that tells us about the age of these objects - we can use spectroscopy to determine their chemical abundances, which also tell us something about their age.  Elements heavier than hydrogen (H) and helium (He) are manufactured in stars, and elements heavier than iron are only manufactured in supernovae (exploding stars).  So it takes generations of stars to live and then die (as planetary nebulae or supernovae) to replenish the interstellar medium (ISM) and intergalactic medium (IGM) with new gas.  Subsequent generations of stars are then formed out of this recycled gas (for example, the Orion Nebula is an active star-forming region).  But this recycled gas is "metal rich" (a "metal" in astronomy is any element heavier than He).  The big bang created mostly H and He, and only traces of heavier elements.  So we'd expect galaxies made out of this material to be metal poor.  And they are.  This is evidence of their age.  In fact, we can apply these same principles to stars to help us determine their origin.  Stars in the disk of the Milky Way are metal rich ("population I stars"), while stars in the halo are metal poor (population II and III).  If we were to observe these same galaxies that are very distant as they are "now," they'd have a higher metal content.

But anyway, I'm sure somewhere there's a simulation of the timeline of the universe that shows what it most likely was like in the different stages of evolution.


As far as a general timeline for the universe, this is a good sketch from the WMAP team.  I show this to maybe shed some light for folks that haven't heard some of the terms.  I'll attach another similar sketch that may help even further.




I'm having trouble attaching the other figure.  I'll try in a subsequent post.
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Offline sangyo soichiro

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Re: from one scientist to the next...
« Reply #13 on: March 19, 2010, 02:27:15 PM »
Here's that other figure.
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Offline sangyo soichiro

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Re: from one scientist to the next...
« Reply #14 on: March 19, 2010, 02:34:41 PM »
haha, nice!!  and i wasn't going for severe accuracy, i was going to get my thoughts out.  i don't have ANYONE to talk to about it, so ive been a bit down with it lately.  nobody in this world wants to LEARN anymore!!!

I know what you mean about not having anyone to talk to about it.  I'm in the same situation about motorcycles.  I have nobody except you guys to talk to about them.  No one else in my life seems interested.   :'(
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Offline tramp

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Re: from one scientist to the next...
« Reply #15 on: March 19, 2010, 03:03:43 PM »
like alot of highly educated people you dwell on a train of thought that cannot be proven
but:
if the big bang was no more than a black hole first starting out and it sucked a portion of what was on the other side through,
imagine what was on the other side of the black hole?
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Offline wannabridin

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Re: from one scientist to the next...
« Reply #16 on: March 19, 2010, 03:09:12 PM »
i'm going on the visible image from the HUBF (Hubble Ultra Deep Field).  what i meant about the 29 e9 years, is that lets take one of the stars from the first formations, about 400 e6 years after the big bang.  well, its light has taken that long to get to us, right?  14 e9 years of traveling.  but at the same time, the universe has been around for the same amount of time, about 15 e9 years.  SO, wait, lemme think about it before typing a little...

thinking about it further, the stars we see are 15 e9 years old...  so contrary to popular, or at least, my belief, the stars we see are at least that old, since we're seeing 15 e9 year old light.  but in the 15 e9 years the universe has been around (if it is finite), those stars have undergone evolution.  thinking about this over and over yields one possibility to me, and infinite universe...  

i am optimistic about our knowledge too, but think about it.  the more we learn about things, the more we realize we don't know!  only in the past 100 years or so of mankinds history has the amount of knowledge has grown SO much!  quantum mechanics and modern cosmology has been created!  either way, so much to learn, and so "little" time!  

one thing i wanted to address.  the only place that "heavy" elements are created are in supernova.  otherwise, there's not enough mass or temperature to fuse hydrogen into anything else...  unless there's other yet-to-be-found super stars that are even bigger than super giants??

nice figures though, good finds!  i've seen them before, but they were in a textbook...  good discussion tho, i'm glad someone is interested in talking about it!
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Offline wannabridin

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Re: from one scientist to the next...
« Reply #17 on: March 19, 2010, 03:13:39 PM »
like alot of highly educated people you dwell on a train of thought that cannot be proven
but:
if the big bang was no more than a black hole first starting out and it sucked a portion of what was on the other side through,
imagine what was on the other side of the black hole?

yes, theres that theory as well, in the multiverse theory...  also, the big collapse, and that the universe has always been, in a state of collapsing and banging/expansion.  but my question to this is, how do we reverse the entropy or create energy to keep this going???
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Offline sangyo soichiro

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Re: from one scientist to the next...
« Reply #18 on: March 19, 2010, 03:33:37 PM »
i'm going on the visible image from the HUBF (Hubble Ultra Deep Field).  what i meant about the 29 e9 years, is that lets take one of the stars from the first formations, about 400 e6 years after the big bang.  well, its light has taken that long to get to us, right?  14 e9 years of traveling.  but at the same time, the universe has been around for the same amount of time, about 15 e9 years.  SO, wait, lemme think about it before typing a little...

thinking about it further, the stars we see are 15 e9 years old...  so contrary to popular, or at least, my belief, the stars we see are at least that old, since we're seeing 15 e9 year old light.  but in the 15 e9 years the universe has been around (if it is finite), those stars have undergone evolution.  thinking about this over and over yields one possibility to me, and infinite universe...  

If the light has travelled for 'x' years, then we are seeing it as it was 'x' years ago.  There's no tricky math.  I'm still confused how you're getting your numbers.  But it's fun nonetheless.

Quote
one thing i wanted to address.  the only place that "heavy" elements are created are in supernova.  otherwise, there's not enough mass or temperature to fuse hydrogen into anything else...  unless there's other yet-to-be-found super stars that are even bigger than super giants??


To be specific, elements up to iron are fused in stars.  There is a chain of events.  First hydrogen is fused into helium.  Fusion creates an outward force in the star that keeps the star from collapsing.  This is called hydrostatic equilibrium.  Once that 'fuel' is used up, however, the star contracts until the pressures and densities are great enough to fuse helium into carbon.  Meanwhile, the last of the hydrogen is still cooked in a shell around the helium fusing core.  And on up the periodic table this cycle goes until it reaches iron (assuming the star is massive enough - many stars are not massive enough to fuse many elements beyond helium).  The iron plateau has something to do with the binding energy of atoms.  It turns out that elements lighter than iron give off energy when fused, but elements heavier than iron require energy when fused.  



So the only way to create elements heavier than iron is in the tremendous densities and pressures produced when a massive star explodes (called a supernova).  Only the massive ones explode.  The core has to be greater than the Chandrasekhar limit which is roughly 1.4 times the mass of our sun.  



Edit:  I should mention, once hydrogen is used up and helium starts fusing, the star has passed 90% of it's life.  It has started dying.  It leaves the "main sequence" and goes up the "asymptotic giant branch" to become a red giant.  Once the He is used up the star migrates along the "horizontal branch" until carbon fusion kicks in and expands even further in size.  And on it goes until it finally the core collapses and the outer envelope is shed in a planetary nebula.



« Last Edit: March 19, 2010, 04:37:52 PM by soichiro »
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Offline sangyo soichiro

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Re: from one scientist to the next...
« Reply #19 on: March 19, 2010, 04:25:46 PM »
By the way, the last picture I showed is a planetary nebula.  It is the gentle expelling of the outer layers of a star that has finally used up its fuel.  Eventually the core contracts into a white dwarf - about the size of Earth, but roughly has the mass of the sun.  A teaspoon of white dwarf matter would weigh as much as a swimming pool full of water.  It's that dense.  Our sun awaits this fate. 


A planetary nebula is not to be confused with a supernova remnant.  The following picture is of the Crab Nebula.  It was a star that exploded in 1054 AD.  The Chinese recorded a "bright star" then, and low and behold, this is what we see now in the spot where they saw their bright star.



If you compare this photo to the previous one (the planetary nebula), you can see this looks like it was created in a much more violent event.  There is a neutron star in the center of this nebula.  It periodically gives off radiation, and is hence called a pulsar.  In fact, it pulses once every 33 milliseconds.  This pulsing has to do with the neutron star's rotation.  It completes one revolution every 33 milliseconds.  Or 1,980,000 RPMs.  That's fast.  The neutron star here is probably around 6 to 10 miles in radius.  It's probably pretty flat, like a pancake maybe.  And the density of this star... remember that teaspoon of white dwarf that weighed as much as a swimming pool... that teaspoon full of neutron star matter would weigh as much as the Rocky Mountain chain!
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Offline sangyo soichiro

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Re: from one scientist to the next...
« Reply #20 on: March 19, 2010, 04:31:57 PM »
I get the feeling I'm rambling and it has nothing to do with the original post.  Sorry.   :-[
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Offline wannabridin

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Re: from one scientist to the next...
« Reply #21 on: March 19, 2010, 05:08:07 PM »
oh no it is entertaining, but don't think that i don't know what you're talking about.  i've seen many pictures of the helix nebula and the crab nebula you have posted. 

you know, my "math" from the star age discussion isn't quite valid.  too bad you don't live closer and we could chat in person over a beer or ten   ;D  either way, my math there is the result of excited thinking with little regard to the end result.  i was bored at work and i was thinking out loud.  ill try to explain my reasoning in a little more detail later on, but right now i'm waiting on my beautiful girlfriend to get ready for a birthday dinner.

but i do appreciate the simple explanations for those that might be interested but don't understand these concepts.  so well done, and the rambling isn't bad, it brings up newer and exciting topics!  but i still like to discuss my original post too  ;D
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Offline Bob Wessner

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Re: from one scientist to the next...
« Reply #22 on: March 19, 2010, 06:53:51 PM »
...  before the big bang, there was NOTHING

Can you run through it again explaining how we get all this from nothing?  ;D ;)
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Offline sangyo soichiro

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Re: from one scientist to the next...
« Reply #23 on: March 19, 2010, 07:10:31 PM »
oh no it is entertaining, but don't think that i don't know what you're talking about.  i've seen many pictures of the helix nebula and the crab nebula you have posted. 

I just don't want anyone that may be interested to feel left out due to lack of explanation.
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Re: from one scientist to the next...
« Reply #24 on: March 19, 2010, 08:32:46 PM »
pretty amazing chart here!  an estimate of the entire amount of energy the universe has created since its existence ~14.5 billion years ago?  NICE!

just so you know, E=MC2, so based on the mass of all matter, there that many joules produced... 

In case anyone wants to know, here's an easy way to interpret this equation.  In a nuclear process like either fission or fusion, the difference in mass between the initial products and the final products, multiplied by the speed of light squared, gives the energy released by that reaction.  This equation can be used to calculate the yield of a nuclear bomb, for example.  Or the energy released per reaction in the fusion in stars.

By the way, the best estimate of the age of the universe is 13.7 billion years old.  Our galaxy is about 12 billion years old. 

Quote
i wonder if these calculations take into account dark matter?  if this is just our dimension?  energy expelled/entered through black holes and quantum tunnels?  zero point energy?  either way, impressive figure!



now here's something that will blow your mind...  before the big bang, there was NOTHING (we're only going from science here people), no space, no matter, no time, no existence.  the truest sense of the word NOTHING.  ZERO.  0.  DNE!  what is that??? 

some theoretical physicists argue that if the universe has a radius of lets say 15 billion light years (remember that from the big bang, the universe expanded in a roughly spherical shape for 15 billion years), that the FARTHEST anyone can see into the past is only 15 billion years.  this is easy to comprehend.  but what if an observer was at the edge of star formation, close to the cosmic "dark ages" right at the outskirts of the cosmic background radiation??  would they be able to see (with a powerful enough telescope mind you) an estimated 30 billion light years across???  the argument comes from saying that at the edge of the sphere, there simply can not exist nothing...  it's a nearly impossible concept to comprehend, it's like trying to "see" a 5th dimension, let alone the 22 that "exist" today. 

This reminds me of the "horizon problem" in cosmology.  The fact that the universe is isotropic and homogeneous in all directions, yet the farthest reaches of the universe are too distant to have "communicated" with each other (and hence reached a similar thermal state).  The Cobe and WMAP satellites showed that the CMBR is fairly uniform across the entire sky.  But for the universe to have "communicated" with itself would imply that something travelled faster than light, which is a no no.  But Alan Guth at MIT solved this problem with inflation.  (Inflation also solved the monopole problem - why are there no magnetic monopoles, and the flatness problem - why does the universe look so "flat.")

By the way, I believe the string theories involve 10 dimensions (there are like 5 of them).  Edward Witten was able to show that these 5 theories were special cases of a more fundamental theory involving 11 dimensions, called M-theory.  I asked Jim (oh what is his last name...), anyway, he's a string theorist at the University of Michigan - a big tall asian guy, I asked him what he thought about if these extra dimensions were real or just a mathematical construct.  He said he believes they are real.  If he's right, then there are 7 extra dimensions we are unable to detect.  Kind of neat.

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the argument states that the universe is and always has been infinite.  it goes on forever, and always has, and will.  another impossible concept, forever.  infinity, infinite, the complete opposite (in some senses of the word) of zero, nothingness.  it states that at the edge of this sphere, you wouldn't see the dark ages or background radiation, but instead, you'd see another 15 billion years into the past...  try to wrap your head around 0 and infinity existing simultaneously in the same plane at the same instant.  i don't know how that's possible?  how can i see, or comprehend matter and nothing existing together??? 

The universe may be infinite, or it may not be.  It depends on the topology of the universe. 

Matter and nothing coexisting... reminds me of quantum fluctuations.  These are those particles that pop into and out of existence.  It turns out we can break the law of conservation of energy/matter as long as we do it within the constraints of the Heisenberg uncertainty principle.  This principle states that there's a limit to the precision we can measure in certain pairs of quantities.  One form of the HUP is ∆E*∆t ≤ h, which means we can either measure the energy to a high precision at the expense of the accuracy in time, or vice-versa, and h is Planck's constant (a really really small number).  But this relation allows the non-conservation of energy provided it is done in a small enough time given by this equation.  The quantum fluctuations are particles that pop into existence (in pairs) out of nothing (and hence break the law of conservation of matter/energy), but annihilate within the time limit.  Your words reminded me of this.

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this has always bothered me...   :( :( :(  i can understand that for a macro plane to exist in the "real" world, one has to experience it.  X,Y, Z and time, sure, they're easy enough to experience.  just wave your hand around and watch the clock.  done!  ok, but what about the 18 other dimensions?  they're on the quantum scale, which is fine.  they exist somewhere i do not.  i highly doubt in my life time we'll be able to "see" another dimension, just because it's on such a higher level than our 4 that drive the macro world.  i guess i'm just ready for the G.U.T. (Grand Unified Theory), or the theory of everything.  by saying this, i'm basically ready for mankind to answer the question of "Why?" from a scientific standpoint.  i feel that if i asked God, He'd just say, "because it's good..." or something along those lines.  (THIS IS NOT A RELIGIOUS DISCUSSION!!!!!!)

For the sake of education (for anyone that has suffered thus far through this post), the GUT is a yet undiscovered theory thats goal is to unify 3 of the 4 fundamental forces - the strong nuclear force, the weak nuclear force, and electromagnetism.  A TOE also includes gravity.  I personally think M-theory is on the right track of being the TOE.  Whether it can ever be tested remains a mystery.

I think the "why" is what the philosophers and theologians worry about. 

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it's always bothered me, well at least since my ignorance was expanded through the use of education, that everything has a smaller counterpoint.  at least down to the string level.  but what are strings???  i can't comprehend a quantum fluctuation...  i can't comprehend "pure" energy.  i CAN comprehend that energy IS the root piece of matter.  so this helps quell my mind sometimes...  what happens if they DO find the Higg's-Boson???  how windows will THAT open up in the field of quantum mechanics?  how will knowing that there IS a subatomic particle responsible for "MASS" help our current predicament of tying that world to ours???  i know that every particle effects every other particle in existence, one proton or electron on one side of the universe has a gravitational and electric "pull" on another proton or electron on the other side of the universe. 

I'm having trouble trying to talk about all these things you bring up.  It makes me want to go drinking.

For one thing, if the Higgs is detected, it will confirm a lot of theory and answer a lot of questions.  How will it help us? - We have to take the first step before we can take the second.

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what really gets me is the duality of particles.  has anyone ever read Heinlein's "Time for the Stars"?  it goes into the use of twins with telepathy abilities to communicate at close to the speed of light.  they're somehow linked together for relatively faster than light communication.  interesting read, Heinlein is a god of sci-fi!!  how can two particles share the same spin states no matter the distance??  it's one thing if they flip from spin up to spin down in the same magnetic or electric field, that's easy to understand.  but how can they do it irregardless of distance?!?!?!  quantum entanglement helps explain this a lot, but it still doesn't answer it like a mechanic saying "well your carbs aren't sync'd." 

Just to define things, I usually think of duality as the particle-wave duality.  That is, particles (and I suppose macroscopic objects too) can behave as both a wave and a particle.  Light for example.  Electrons for another example.  Baseballs too (although their waves are really really small...).

What you describe, (and later give its proper name) is entanglement.  I'll be the first to admit that I don't understand entanglement.  But a theory to test it was proposed by Bell (can't remember his full name...) in the '60s and was successfully shown in the '80s.

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i guess the whole point for my "rant" here is that my engineering/scientific brain clashes with my mechanic/fixxer-upper brain.  i want to know WHY everything works by knowing HOW it all works!  i want to know why, simply, so i can tell others!!!  like Einstein once said, "Any intelligent fool can make things bigger and more complex... It takes a touch of genius - and a lot of courage to move in the opposite direction."

sorry to go on and on, i'd just like to share some thoughts with others in the hopes that maybe a good honest discussion can ensue!  so please, comment/argue/rant away!!!  ;D


I am so planning on getting drunk thanks to you.  Maybe I'll even toke on a peace pipe. 

Since you seem to like this stuff, you might like these books:
In Search of Schrodinger's Cat by John Gribbon,
Hyperspace and Parallel Worlds by Michio Kaku.

There's a lot of other good books out there too.
1974 CB 750
1972 CB 750 http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,57974.0.html
1971 CL 350 Scrambler
1966 Black Bomber
Too many others to name…
My cross country trip: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,138625.0.html