Author Topic: carbon fouled plugs when below 3000 rpm  (Read 7562 times)

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Offline Rddmm2

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carbon fouled plugs when below 3000 rpm
« on: July 26, 2010, 06:35:55 pm »
Been tinkering all summer with my K5 and just can't get carbs right.

What are general causes of carbon fouled plugs?  

My bike accelerates great if you hammer it and it runs smooth over 3000 K but too long at low speed in stop and go traffic in the city and plugs become fouled and engine starts missing -this happens very quickly. When I cleaned plugs or dropped in a new set of plugs it fired up again and idled nicely but eventually started to get fouled after a few city drives ( dark black carbon soot on each plug)  How do I lean things out?
Bit of History: Cleaned carbs 3 times, air screw out 1 turn.  The needle Jet was a bit discolored on #3 but did not look excessively worn but I have little reference to determine if needle jet should have been replaced.  
The overall carb situation seems constantly in flux and I just can't get it under control.
Sorry about the run-on, lol.  Any general feedback would be great.

Offline TwoTired

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Re: carbon fouled plugs when below 3000 rpm
« Reply #1 on: July 26, 2010, 06:53:21 pm »
Why not open the air screw farther?
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Offline Rddmm2

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Re: carbon fouled plugs when below 3000 rpm
« Reply #2 on: July 27, 2010, 05:02:46 am »
Backed air screws out but no real change,
I removed bottom of air box too and that seemed to help a bit but not much - what are some other causes of carbon fouled plugs unrelated to carbs?


Offline TwoTired

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Re: carbon fouled plugs when below 3000 rpm
« Reply #3 on: July 27, 2010, 08:33:17 am »
Describe your air filter.
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Offline Rddmm2

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Re: carbon fouled plugs when below 3000 rpm
« Reply #4 on: July 27, 2010, 07:49:17 pm »
stock air box -  emgo filter, - i installed new air box gasket this morning before work 
-took out slow jets and turns out #2 and #4 looked clogged so cleaned again - it started easily and idled - good news i thought but turns out # 1 was not firing and running on 3 cylinders - I pulled # 1 plug to clean and checked #1 float level and level seemed ok. - # 1 still not firing- That's what I mean when I say i can't get a handle on things - like moving goal posts - If carbs and slow jets clean then why the ##*# does #1 all of a sudden not fire?    
My summary 1. tank sediment fouling slow jets
2.  fouled slow jets = fouled plugs
3. fouled plugs = cylinder won't fire.
4. no consistency yet so unable to fine tune and just causing more havoc if adjusting air screws or idle screw or removing air box etc., at this stage
5. all adds up to wasting several weekends going in circles and ##*#@ cursing a lot knowing you or someone else could diagnose and tune this baby in an afternoon.
I'm leaving on an extended long weekend so I'll deal when I get back - sure the hec ain't ridin the k5 anywhere - i'll figure it out eventually.

Offline Jerry Rxman Griffin aka MuthaF'er

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Re: carbon fouled plugs when below 3000 rpm
« Reply #5 on: July 27, 2010, 08:00:23 pm »
Low electrics and/or rich jetting
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Offline HondaMan

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Re: carbon fouled plugs when below 3000 rpm
« Reply #6 on: July 27, 2010, 08:11:02 pm »
A little history on the bike, maybe?
Like, was it sitting a long time (1 year or more), then fired up and have this issue?
How about the carb hoses? Leaks between the carbs and head will cause rich low speed problems (counterintuitive if you're used to cars: this is a different system).
Were the carbs dirty? If the emulsifier bleed tube(s) are blocked on just 2 carbs, then all 4 will foul plugs. "Blocked" means just 25% of these passages being full of white powdery stuff...

What's the state of tune? New points? Young condensors?

Air screws on 750K5 should be at 7/8 to 1 turn out, no more. 7/8 turn is 14:1 A/F mixture, while 1 turn is 12:1. at 1-1/8 turn out, it goes to almost 10:1. Idle should be in the 12:1 range because of low-speed breathing inefficiencies.

Check the resistance of your sparkplug caps. If they are more than 9000 ohms, replace them. If any pair (i.e., 1-4 or 2-3) differs by more than 800 ohms between the caps, only the lesser one will fire when under compression.  ;)
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Offline Rddmm2

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Re: carbon fouled plugs when below 3000 rpm
« Reply #7 on: July 27, 2010, 08:37:06 pm »
what do you consider 'rich jetting'?

A little history on the bike: Was on the road 3 years ago - ran ok last fall before I cleaned tank, worked on electrical, steering bearings, wheel bearings, 1 muffler replaced with used hm341 from a k2, rebuilt starter, dropped in used clutch assembly to fix shuttering/slipping, new battery etc.,  points seem in good shape no pitting or signs of wear, carbs were in decent shape and only slow jets showed signs of blockage- I pulled carbs 3 or 4 times now - seperated carb bodies to clean last time and was worried about #3 discolored jet needle but did not seem worn so left it, I replaced carb boots and installed new bands and they fit nicely so hard to believe they are leaking - i really thought that was the problem before and maybe it was but with all the tinkering I've lost my reference point.
air screws are 1 turn out,

Offline Spanner 1

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Re: carbon fouled plugs when below 3000 rpm
« Reply #8 on: July 27, 2010, 09:11:21 pm »
Nice, new plug caps are probably required, especially as 1 cylinder is dropping-out, my 2c.to add to Hondamans recommendations...
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Offline HondaMan

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Re: carbon fouled plugs when below 3000 rpm
« Reply #9 on: July 29, 2010, 10:05:14 pm »
One thing to look at, since the bike was sitting: the emulsifier holes in the "mainjet holders" (i.e., emulsifier tubes) often collect a calcium-like subtance in them from the gas drying out in the floar bowls. You won't notice this stuff unless you try to push a drill bit through them (#35 drill is about right). This will make the low end marginally rich, too. This is similar to the blocked emulsifier air tube problem, too.

The needles don't wear: mine have (had) 128,000 miles on them when I finally happened across new ones and installed them: the old needle jets were very slightly egg-shaped (wide side toward the engine) and had been turned 180 degrees at 88,000 miles to help reduce the low-end richness that had started (but, I live above 6000 feet altitude, too). The old needles compare to the new ones with no measurable differences at 8 places along the taper! After installing the new needles, there was no detectable performance change. After installing new needle jets, it became more cold-blooded for the next 10,000 miles or so until they wore in a little.

In short: those parts don't wear nearly as much as most riders think they do.  ;)
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Offline Rob M

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Re: carbon fouled plugs when below 3000 rpm
« Reply #10 on: October 09, 2010, 08:07:22 pm »
Hondaman, could you explain this a little further, to say it is counter intuitive is an understatement.  I have been running into this same problem so I would like to understand it a little better.

Quote
How about the carb hoses? Leaks between the carbs and head will cause rich low speed problems (counterintuitive if you're used to cars: this is a different system).

Also could you explain the Air Fuel Ratios that you went over in this post.  From the limited explanations in my manuals I thought that turning out the air screw allowed more air thru the carb leaning out the mixture.  But if you are suggesting that the increased airflow thru the slow jet circuit enrichens the mixture, how exactly?

Thanks, oh and the Transistor ignition worked beautifully, but today, I broke a heel off one of my points.  So I have a couple of days to ask questions before I can get back to it.

Offline dave500

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Re: carbon fouled plugs when below 3000 rpm
« Reply #11 on: October 09, 2010, 09:27:51 pm »
im with spanner here,check the resistance in the caps,you will chase ghost fuel issues unless the ignition is sorted,you might see a nice spark but under compression itll struggle maybe,the slightly richer low speed running wont burn thoroughly enough and foul plugs,so you try to lean it and get a flat sag etc.go right over the ignition aswell.

Offline mazingerzeca

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Re: carbon fouled plugs when below 3000 rpm
« Reply #12 on: October 10, 2010, 08:29:45 am »
Check the resistance of your sparkplug caps. If they are more than 9000 ohms, replace them. If any pair (i.e., 1-4 or 2-3) differs by more than 800 ohms between the caps, only the lesser one will fire when under compression.  ;)
How is the resistance of the sparkplug caps measured?

Offline Rob M

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Re: carbon fouled plugs when below 3000 rpm
« Reply #13 on: October 11, 2010, 12:03:37 am »
Pull off the cap, use a multimeter to check the ohms (negative on one side and positive on the other) I assume.  That is how I would do it, and will be doing it. 

I really wish HM would get on to answer my question, at least this will give this one a bump.

Offline lrutt

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Re: carbon fouled plugs when below 3000 rpm
« Reply #14 on: October 11, 2010, 05:07:21 am »
First off, on the mid K bikes, up to K6, was that an air screw or low speed mixture screw. Meaning did it control air or fuel. If air then backing it out would make hte low speed rich.

I thought they were low speed fuel screws. And also, when you cleaned the jets, did you clean them out with a wire or something? you might have hogged them out to a larger orifice, or possibly the PO did that.

You might turn those screws back in to the 1.5 turns and try that.
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Offline Spanner 1

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Re: carbon fouled plugs when below 3000 rpm
« Reply #15 on: October 11, 2010, 09:03:46 am »
The 'idle mixture screws' on the K0 thru' K6 are air screws... i.e. the further out the more air is 'bled' into the idle/slow jet to adjust the air/fuel ratio.... so " in theory " :), the idle mix will be leaner with the airscrews more than 1 turn out....... I say ' in theory' as the idle air mixing is dependant on the rest of the carb settings being spot-on... IMO and would be the first thing to go out of wack with untuned carbs......( i.e. to where adjusting the screws seems to have no or very little effect ).....
« Last Edit: October 11, 2010, 09:40:12 am by Spanner 1 »
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Offline TwoTired

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Re: carbon fouled plugs when below 3000 rpm
« Reply #16 on: October 11, 2010, 10:16:39 am »
Unless you have the PD style carbs, the air screw presents a restriction of the air from the air jet to the pilot jet emulsifier tube.  Screw this pilot screw in and less air is available to premix with the pilot jet emulsifier, making the mixture richer.  Outward turns are the reverse, of course.

I have verified this behavior with an exhaust gas analyzer on a CB550.  The leanest exhaust mixture was achieved at about 8 turns out when the air jet hole diameter was the remaining restriction in the pilot air mix path (which made further turns ineffective).

Part of the learning experience of this experiment was that this setting also made the engine un-drivable on the street with no power response from a throttle twist.  The very low throat pressure with slides nearly closed is suddenly raised when the mechanical slide is opened and this causes a much reduced flow through all the fuel jets, even while more air is available.  Many carbs have accelerator pumps to overcome this fuel deficiency.  Non- accelerator pump carbs rely on an over-rich idle mixture to overcome the throttle twist wheeze.

The PD style carbs moved the pilot screw adjustment to the carb bore exit point.  There is still and air jet and pilot jet emulsifier mix point at the pilot jet exit, but the entire premix flow is regulated at the carb bore exit point where total flow can be shut off entirely by the pilot screw.  This is often called the Idle Mixture Screw (IMS).  Turn the IMS in to lean and out to enrich the mixture.

Cheers,


« Last Edit: October 11, 2010, 12:14:43 pm by TwoTired »
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Offline HondaMan

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Re: carbon fouled plugs when below 3000 rpm
« Reply #17 on: October 11, 2010, 11:13:39 am »
There's a lot of confusion about the CB750 carbs and how they work, so I wrote an entire chapter on it in my book...

The air screws on these pulse-vacuum carbs control the air inlet to the idle emulsifier tube, which is that tiny little perforated tube on top of the pilot jet, and its chamber above the threads where it screws into the body. Without air coming in past this screw, the engine vacuum cannot "pull" much out of the tiny idle hole hole, and the jet itself is so small that the tiny amount of fuel that gets "sucked" into the throat by the short engine vacuum pulse (if this screw is shut) amounts to about 80:1 A/F mixture. Since the fuel has quite a bit of mass and inertia, it cannot travel very far up the tiny tubes during these short engine "suck" episodes (unlike an automotive carb, where vacuum is constant).

Once again (per my book): the air pressure in the float bowl and upstream side of the slide (where idle air comes from) PUSHES the fuel up the jets. Vacuum does not run these carbs: it only pulls the fuel/air mixture from the throat into the engine and provides the pressure differential below bowl pressure. Opening the idle air screw allows more air into the idle emulsion chamber, pushing more mixture up the tiny jet when a vacuum occurs. Without this push from below, there is almost no fuel entering the throat. Thus, closing the screw below 1 turn leans out the A/F entering the engine, and vice-versa.

 ;)
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Offline Rob M

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Re: carbon fouled plugs when below 3000 rpm
« Reply #18 on: October 11, 2010, 11:25:29 am »
Thanks TwoTired that almost made sense.  Valiant attemot at explaining this system, but one question.  You stated that on the pre-PD scewing in the air screw will lessen the air mixed at he pilot jet emulsifier, making lean, but then also that the leanest point was wide open on the air screw.  Would this make the fuel/air mixture thru this system on a bell curve, if charted.

Also do you you have something to say about what HM mentioned here
Quote
How about the carb hoses? Leaks between the carbs and head will cause rich low speed problems (counterintuitive if you're used to cars: this is a different system).

Offline ferroussphinx

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Re: carbon fouled plugs when below 3000 rpm
« Reply #19 on: October 11, 2010, 11:48:23 am »
Thanks TwoTired that almost made sense.  Valiant attemot at explaining this system, but one question.  You stated that on the pre-PD scewing in the air screw will lessen the air mixed at he pilot jet emulsifier, making lean, but then also that the leanest point was wide open on the air screw.  Would this make the fuel/air mixture thru this system on a bell curve, if charted.

Also do you you have something to say about what HM mentioned here
Quote
How about the carb hoses? Leaks between the carbs and head will cause rich low speed problems (counterintuitive if you're used to cars: this is a different system).


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Offline TwoTired

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Re: carbon fouled plugs when below 3000 rpm
« Reply #20 on: October 11, 2010, 12:53:45 pm »
Thanks TwoTired that almost made sense.  Valiant attemot at explaining this system, but one question.  You stated that on the pre-PD scewing in the air screw will lessen the air mixed at he pilot jet emulsifier, making lean, but then also that the leanest point was wide open on the air screw. 

Thanks for the note.  I mis-wrote the above post and corrected it.  Thanks for pointing out the wrong word used.
In fact, an air bleed screw turned out makes the mix leaner and turned in makes the mixture richer.

Also do you you have something to say about what HM mentioned here
Quote
How about the carb hoses? Leaks between the carbs and head will cause rich low speed problems (counterintuitive if you're used to cars: this is a different system).

I have to disagree with Mark (Hondaman) on this point.  My understanding of physics refutes his explanation, as does my testing experience with an exhaust gas analyzer.

A given orifice size, flows a fluid based on the pressure differential across the orifice (assuming laminar flow of the fluid, which the standard jet operates within, in its normal regime).

The jets don't flow when the engine is not running because the pressure in the carb throats is the same as the pressure on the fuel in the carb bowls.  No pressure differential across the jet orifice equals no flow.
  When the piston falls on the intake stroke, less than atmospheric pressure is created, and this pressure loss (commonly referred to as vacuum pressure) then is presented to the carb throat.  The exit port for the pilot system exists within the carb throat.  Both the pilot jet and the air air jet feed this exit port.  The air jet presents atmospheric pressure and an air source, while the pilot jet presents fuel pushed by the atmospheric pressure on the fuel in the float bowls.

The air bleed screw regulates the inrush of air and also lowers the pressure differential applied to the pilot jet orifice.  With the air screw more open, both these factors reduce the fuel air ratio mixed in the emulsion tube (at the fuel jet exit) before it travels to the low pressure source in the carb throat, creating less fuel for the increased air volume, and reduced pressure differential applied to the fuel jet orifice.

The only way extra negative pressure in the pilot system could be created was if there was a venturi to increase the speed or flow of materials as there is in the carb throat, which it does not.  The flow of materials, air and fuel, in the pilot system is governed by physical principles and the pressure differential between what exists in the carb throat and the outside atmospheric pressure.  It really doesn't matter if the differentials are pulsed, the rates will be determined by the average over time.

I am sorry to disagree with Mark on this point.  But, my actual testing does not seem to support his theory (whether it is printed in his book or not).  My testing does exactly follow my understanding of the physics and science involved, and the hydrocarbons sniffed at the tailpipe show that the air bleed screw turned out makes the mixture leaner and turning it in makes the mixture richer.  (For the non-PD carbs found on our SOHC4s, of course.)

I hope I didn't put more typos in the above. ::)

Cheers,







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Offline Rob M

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Re: carbon fouled plugs when below 3000 rpm
« Reply #21 on: October 11, 2010, 01:01:24 pm »
Okay, I was just hoping for some clarification on this point.  As far as I know asking questions is the only way to learn anything.  Other than getting the book, i guess.  Thank you all for your input though, it is nice to have someone somewhere to learn from.  I apologize if I came off any other way, I am not the most sociable creature. 

Offline Deltarider

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Re: carbon fouled plugs when below 3000 rpm
« Reply #22 on: October 11, 2010, 01:30:40 pm »
My experience runs parallel with TT's.
But mine is a 500, don't know much about 750 carbs.
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Offline Spanner 1

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Re: carbon fouled plugs when below 3000 rpm
« Reply #23 on: October 11, 2010, 01:38:15 pm »
My brain got stuck at the part ' the air pressure in the float bowls '... with  complete respect, the air in the bowls is at atmosphere at all times ( vented ). The entire op. of the carb is governed by the vacuum created by the motor, no ?
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Offline TwoTired

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Re: carbon fouled plugs when below 3000 rpm
« Reply #24 on: October 11, 2010, 02:44:02 pm »
My brain got stuck at the part ' the air pressure in the float bowls '... with  complete respect, the air in the bowls is at atmosphere at all times ( vented ). The entire op. of the carb is governed by the vacuum created by the motor, no ?

The atmospheric pressure at sea level is about 14.7 PSI.  This is the weight of the column of air stacked on top of you being pulled toward earth by gravity.  Higher elevations will have less air and less pressure upon you.  It is not zero PSI until you reach space.

The vents in the carb bowls are to allow this atmospheric pressure to exist on the level of fuel in the carb bowls.
When the engine isn't running, this same 14.7 PSI exists in the carb throats.  Therefore, the fuel jet doesn't flow through jets because both sides of the orifice are presented with the same 14.7 PSI.  When the piston falls on the intake stroke, extra space for the existing gasses inside exists.  The molecules get spaced farther apart and until it can become filled through the intake tract, less than 14.7 psi exists in the chamber.  When less than atmospheric pressure reaches the pilot system exit in the carb throat and eventually the fuel jet orifice side opposite the fuel supply in the carb bowl, then fuel transits the fuel jet orifice.  The air jet supplies a bypass or alternate source of 14.7 psi air along with some volume of air on it's way to the engine cylinder via the pilot system.

The engine never makes a true vacuum, which is defined by the absence of all matter.  We often call it a partial vacuum.
But indeed, the engine does create the differential pressures needed to operate the carburetors.  But, it works in concert with what exists in the atmosphere.  In actuality, carburetors can't work in a true vacuum environment. 

Cheers,

Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
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