Author Topic: For the purist: why the CB750 is unique.  (Read 3775 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline HondaMan

  • Someone took this pic of me before I became a
  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 13,786
  • ...not my choice, I was nicknamed...
    • Getting 'em Back on the Road
For the purist: why the CB750 is unique.
« on: February 20, 2006, 07:35:48 PM »
Until the late 1990s, the CB750 was, to my knowledge, the only "big displacement" undersquare inline four production bike built. "Undersquare" means the bore is narrower than the stroke length. "Conventional" hotrodders complain that "undersquare engines can't breathe" like square or oversquare engines. This only illustrates that they misunderstand the great advantage of 'long holes'.

At low engine speeds, the longer bore gives greater torque for a given displacement, period. In most cases, long-bore engines were used for torquing applications, for this reason. Honda went it one better, though, by making a long-bore engine that could rev, REALLY rev. The rod ratio is actually over 2:1 ! When the revs begin, a special effect known as 'ram tuning' rears its pretty head, which forces more charge into the cylinder than one can get with a shorter stroke. This occurs because the vacuum is deeper at the midstroke, it lasts longer, and can be controlled more easily through the cam timing. Astute mechanics may notice that the 750 cam is a little late on intake closing compared to, say, a 350 twin or "modern" touring bike. This means that the power range starts later and stays longer than a larger-bore engine, and the resulting 'turbocharging' is free.

Next, the long-bore multi that revs has the extra low-end torque that makes it driveable while you're on your way to the powerband. This is no small thing, as riders of the CB500/CB550 know. The 750 has no "flat spot", like all other multis made. It never did. The long intake tubes, longer than the carb bore diameter, make up the midrange that otherwise starts to fall off in most fours before the powerband comes up. Then, the combination of ram-tuning in the cylinders and the long intake tract come together at about 6500 RPM to make the show start. The cylinders actually run richer at this RPM than below it, no matter how you tune the air inlet system.  This is one of the great secrets of this engine, and why it is just as much at home with a touring load as it is between stoplights, once one understand the advantages. Add to this the higher controllability of mixing fuel for small bores, rather than large ones, and the smallest of changes come together in the biggest way.

Keep that in mind for your tuning efforts: you are working with small displacements, so don't listen to the V-8 guys. A lot of their stuff does not work with these bikes. Headers on small bore engines are highly overrated.

To be sure, Honda struggled with this design. It went from a 600+cc to a 700cc to the 736cc version in R&D. They got a lot of experience, though, from their famous 90cc engine family, which was frequently stroked to 105cc size. Their primary "engineering" reason for undersquare was publicly stated as "to control the width of the engine", but my Yoshimura friends assured me this was public camoflage to Kawasaki (who, by the way, lost out to Honda by 2 hours of being the first to introduce an inline 4 at the New York expo in 1969, but that's the "New York Steak" story, for another day). The CB750 was essentially a multi-cylinder Honda 90 with better metals and a very risky gearbox design (that proved out well, fortunately).

So, when you hear old Cycle magazine readers quoting that rag as saying "this is the bike that changed motorcycling", smile. That rag was speaking about riding to the drive-in on Saturday nite and coast-to-coast the next week. In truth, it changed the way all motorcycles were comparatively built from then on.
« Last Edit: February 20, 2006, 08:52:24 PM by HondaMan »
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
Hondaman's creed: "Bikers are family. Treat them accordingly."

Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

Link to My CB750 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?adult_audience_rating=00&page=1&pageSize=10&q=my+cb750+book

Link to website: www.SOHC4shop.com

Offline keiths

  • Hot Shot
  • ***
  • Posts: 393
Re: For the purist: why the CB750 is unique.
« Reply #1 on: February 20, 2006, 08:07:40 PM »
The 350F also has a longer stroke than bore. 47mm x 50mm.

Offline HondaMan

  • Someone took this pic of me before I became a
  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 13,786
  • ...not my choice, I was nicknamed...
    • Getting 'em Back on the Road
Re: For the purist: why the CB750 is unique.
« Reply #2 on: February 20, 2006, 08:11:05 PM »
Oops - that's right - I worked more on the 400 family and forgot about their little brother. The little shotglass pistons in the 350 needed more compression to take advantage of the ram tuning, though, so it actually made less power than the CB350 twin, even at 10000 RPM. It sure started good, though.

My apologies: see the mod-ed post. I tend to "think big" about the fours, while admitting that even now, the 350-4 is on my "most desired" list as one of those "magic bikes"...  ;)
« Last Edit: February 20, 2006, 08:54:05 PM by HondaMan »
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
Hondaman's creed: "Bikers are family. Treat them accordingly."

Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

Link to My CB750 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?adult_audience_rating=00&page=1&pageSize=10&q=my+cb750+book

Link to website: www.SOHC4shop.com

Offline toycollector10

  • Expert
  • ****
  • Posts: 1,134
Re: For the purist: why the CB750 is unique.
« Reply #3 on: February 21, 2006, 02:31:43 AM »
Another great informative post from HondaMan...my co-riders say my K0 blows black smoke when I am under hard accelleration..So that is unburnt hydrocarbons (gas) plus the fact that I used carb cleaner fluid in my gas?. Basically opened up the jets to let more gas in?
Any comments for a newbie HM?....Cheers
1969  CB 750 K0
1973  CB175
1973  Z1 Kawasaki

theunrulychef

  • Guest
Re: For the purist: why the CB750 is unique.
« Reply #4 on: February 21, 2006, 05:24:45 AM »
Very informative.  Thanks again for another great post.  For those of us not in the know, how can we use this knowledge of a longer stroke to better tune our CB750s?

Thanks,
Jay in Philly

Offline diamondd

  • Full Member
  • *
  • Posts: 43
  • "75" cb750k5
Re: For the purist: why the CB750 is unique.
« Reply #5 on: February 21, 2006, 07:45:27 AM »
Another great post. Wish you were my neighbor. Can't find anybody in my area that has much knowlege on these bikes.

Offline HondaMan

  • Someone took this pic of me before I became a
  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 13,786
  • ...not my choice, I was nicknamed...
    • Getting 'em Back on the Road
Re: For the purist: why the CB750 is unique.
« Reply #6 on: February 25, 2006, 05:26:33 PM »
Another great informative post from HondaMan...my co-riders say my K0 blows black smoke when I am under hard accelleration..So that is unburnt hydrocarbons (gas) plus the fact that I used carb cleaner fluid in my gas?. Basically opened up the jets to let more gas in?
Any comments for a newbie HM?....Cheers

The smoke is unburned fuel that has collected as loose carbon on top of the pistons. The revs try to blow it out. The K0 and K1 were particularly notorious for this. Check the forum for my post about "tired of fouled plugs" (or something like that) for info on fixing it up. Don't let more fuel in: you need a little less. Basically, the K0 can benefit from dropping the needles one notch and dropping the main jet by 5 or 10, depending on your altitude.

On K0 and early K1 (built before 2/1970): For reference: at 6000 feet up, where I live, the K0/K1 needles are dropped 2 notches and the main jet is set to 105 (stock was 120). In Illinois, where I used to live, I would drop the needles one notch and install a 5 size smaller main (115) unless the customer was a tourer, not a racer, then I would drop the mains to 110.

K1 bikes built after about 2/1970 had a 17-tooth front sprocket and 48 tooth rear, and the main jets came as 115 in most I saw, including my own, built 3/1970.
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
Hondaman's creed: "Bikers are family. Treat them accordingly."

Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

Link to My CB750 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?adult_audience_rating=00&page=1&pageSize=10&q=my+cb750+book

Link to website: www.SOHC4shop.com

Offline HondaMan

  • Someone took this pic of me before I became a
  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 13,786
  • ...not my choice, I was nicknamed...
    • Getting 'em Back on the Road
Re: For the purist: why the CB750 is unique.
« Reply #7 on: February 25, 2006, 05:54:55 PM »
Very informative.  Thanks again for another great post.  For those of us not in the know, how can we use this knowledge of a longer stroke to better tune our CB750s?

Thanks,
Jay in Philly

The main thing to remember is: don't listen too much to those who have only hotrodded "normal" oversquare engines. The intake characteristics are different for undersquare, including, on the 750 (and 350-4) the 'ram charge' effect of long intake tracts like these bikes have. Long intake tracts help almost any engine achieve wider powerbands, but with a 'long hole' it amplifies the situation even more. As a result, keep these things in mind:

- Jetting changes via the main jet have far more effect above 6000 RPM than at, say, midrange. Use the needles and emulsifier tubes (aka "needle jet holders" or "main jet holders") to work with settings in the 3000-6500 RPM range.
- Airbox (intake) changes are reflected later in the RPM curve than you might expect. Think in terms of 2 carbs breathing at once (28mm stock units) when tuning the "intake hole size". Below about 5000 RPM, there will be little difference between the stock airbox and open (unfiltered) carbs. The airbox has nice velocity stacks inside, which helps the 7000+ RPM range. A K&N filter has almost no draw-down pressure, so it's like running without a filter.
- When changing to a different cam, don't get more lift: get more duration. Higher lift adds loads to the valve train and cam chain, losing power, while longer durations do not. You get more bang for the buck and longer life without the extra lift, plus it doesn't help unless you do some serious port mods, anyway. We only found a 3%-6% increase in flow for a .100" lift increase, which is a LOT of extra lift: that's not worth the wear and tear. Ten degrees of added duration on the intakes will push the powerband up from 5500 RPM start to 6800 RPM start, but the long stroke will retain much of the low-end torque. This would not be as true in an oversquare engine, where the low-end disappears quickly with that much more cam duration. For street or cafe use, 5 degrees more is fun and not annoying in traffic.
- Don't get too crazy with compression ratios. Honda did a good job with the "F" series engines by only raising it .5 over the K series.
The compression goes up extra fast in a longer stroke, compared to "normal" thinking. If you raise CR, cool off the sparkplug.
- Play with your spark advance curve (I have a post around here somewhere about that). You can tailor your powerband and MPG with this simple device. If you add more timing, watch your sparkplugs for too much white: switch to the NippoDenso X24 plugs for a slightly cooler running one, if you need to. Less timing advance makes a real nice in-town cruiser, not high-strung, and easier to start. The long-stroke engine is more forgiving about too much spark advance than an oversquare engine: the 750 has a long curve already!
- Think in terms of torque, not HP so much. When making gearing changes, don't get too low or you will find yourself in 3rd gear real quick. The 750 likes tugging at its chain more than, say, the 500 or one of the Honda Twins, which do their show at revs.
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
Hondaman's creed: "Bikers are family. Treat them accordingly."

Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

Link to My CB750 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?adult_audience_rating=00&page=1&pageSize=10&q=my+cb750+book

Link to website: www.SOHC4shop.com

Offline eurban

  • Master
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,625
Re: For the purist: why the CB750 is unique.
« Reply #8 on: February 26, 2006, 05:58:15 AM »
Hondaman-  thanks for the your postings.  I am wondering about the modifications to the emulsifier tubes you have mentioned on a few occasions.  For carb tuning I have never considered this mod and I am wondering in what instances it would be recommended.  I have a general sense of when I would want to change my idle jets, needle settings and main jets but where does the emulisifier mods come into effect and what are the results to the mix when the holes are altered?(presumably enlarged)? Basically how would I make a decision as to whether or not a mod to the tubes would be helpful? . . . . . . . .No disrespect but Honda bumped the CR in the F1s to around 9.2 to 1. This engine with a few mods became the 77/78 K engines.  While the larger valved F2/F3 engines actually had a CR of around 9:1  Thanks

Offline 8 Track

  • Hot Shot
  • ***
  • Posts: 449
  • 1976 cb750
Re: For the purist: why the CB750 is unique.
« Reply #9 on: February 26, 2006, 06:21:52 AM »
Eurban, I read all of that info on the tubes and gave it a shot.  I have a '76 cb750k, and although it's possible that my bike wasn't a candidate for this modification, I tried it anyway.  I had a muddy midrange and dark plugs.  So I started drilling the holes out, in steps, until I felt no difference.  I don't remember the hole sizes exactly, .025 and .035, maybe?  Anyway, I stopped drilling at .039.  I did this over the course of four test rides.  My plugs are dark to light tan (in 50 degree air) and the midrange is much crisper.  I mean really crisp.  The most interesting thing is the pinging sound.  The exhaust on practically every bike out there pings when you shut it off, but mine never did.  Well, it does a little bit now.  I'm running stock 105's, with 110's as backup if it's too lean.  Needle is on the 4th notch (from the top).  I modified the tubes because if I went to far, I knew I could successfully solder the hole shut and redrill it to the proper size.  I also noticed that my bike gets a little buzzy feeling if it's a hair too lean and I haven't felt that sensation yet.
My dog loves me for the person I try to be.  Either that or he's hungry.

Offline HondaMan

  • Someone took this pic of me before I became a
  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 13,786
  • ...not my choice, I was nicknamed...
    • Getting 'em Back on the Road
Re: For the purist: why the CB750 is unique.
« Reply #10 on: February 27, 2006, 09:26:39 PM »
Hondaman-  thanks for the your postings.  I am wondering about the modifications to the emulsifier tubes you have mentioned on a few occasions.  For carb tuning I have never considered this mod and I am wondering in what instances it would be recommended.  I have a general sense of when I would want to change my idle jets, needle settings and main jets but where does the emulisifier mods come into effect and what are the results to the mix when the holes are altered?(presumably enlarged)? Basically how would I make a decision as to whether or not a mod to the tubes would be helpful? . . . . . . . .No disrespect but Honda bumped the CR in the F1s to around 9.2 to 1. This engine with a few mods became the 77/78 K engines.  While the larger valved F2/F3 engines actually had a CR of around 9:1  Thanks

I remember the higher CR in the "F" engines. It was good for extra HP in normal tuning situations. I think I also remember it made them a little testy about bad gas... ?

The main indicator for "needing to open the emulsifiers" is a sloshy, soft midrange with dark sparkplugs, often with accompanying short plug life due to fouling. Another way to test for this is to run low octane gas and see if the midrange improves in crispness. See "2-stroke's" post: he's got a good description going of the result! If you have an "F" model, I would hold off on spark timing changes and do the carb mods first, maybe going .005" larger on the holes (one pair first, then 2 pair). If you go too big, get some solder and try again. (Although, I've never had to do this on a 750. Did on a 350-4 once, though, they are much "touchier" due to small pistons   :-[  ).

What this change accomplishes is this: the fuel, as it rises from the bowl toward the needle jet, is supposed to "bubble", like when you suck thru a straw that has a hole in its side between you and the Coke. This breaks up the fuel a little so that when it hits the moving air in the venturi, it atomizes better. If it atomizes less, it does not mix with air as well and uneven combustion results. More even combustion means more useable power.

When the needles and the jet holder are brand new, they are rough on their surfaces and edges, which makes a little turbulence. This little bit of turbulence leads the engineers to tune to that situation, which then becomes richer as the parts wear in and smooth out. That's good for warranties, not so good for throttle response or spark plugs. As 2-stroke noted, there is a point beyond which there is no additional improvement when drilling the holes bigger a little at a time. It does not hurt anything, there just is no further change.

If you understand about the idle, needle and mainjets, you're halfway there. The slide cutaway and emulsifiers are 2 more pieces of the puzzle. The intake tract and venturi size relative to that tract completes the whole picture, as far as mixing is concerned. Technically speaking, the cutaway should change when the intake opening changes (like from an airbox to individual filters or velocity stacks), but it can become difficult to control without a machine-shop mill (and welder to fix the mistakes!). That's the part where transitions from low-to-midrange are best controlled. Avoiding that, the emulsifier tubes are the next-best place to work out the midrange for that satisfying throttle response we all love.
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
Hondaman's creed: "Bikers are family. Treat them accordingly."

Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

Link to My CB750 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?adult_audience_rating=00&page=1&pageSize=10&q=my+cb750+book

Link to website: www.SOHC4shop.com

Offline 8 Track

  • Hot Shot
  • ***
  • Posts: 449
  • 1976 cb750
Re: For the purist: why the CB750 is unique.
« Reply #11 on: February 28, 2006, 03:32:41 AM »
Thank you for the kind words, HondaMan, you've been applauded.  I noticed one of the two ports in the intake side of the carb is metered.  Unfortunately, I don't remember which one supplies air to the emulsion tube.  If it's the metered one, which I think it is, then drilling the tubes out only goes so far (within reason), like you said in your post.  I haven't had the carbs apart for about six months, that's why I don't remember which is which, but I suspected this while I was drilling.  Another thing I noticed after drilling, was startup when cold.  The bike smelled "clean"; it smelled like they did when I was a little boy and they were new!  ;D

Twostrokecrazy, aka Strokey (thanks to Terry!)
My dog loves me for the person I try to be.  Either that or he's hungry.