Author Topic: Help me kill my electrical gremlins....  (Read 4597 times)

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Offline Toxic

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Help me kill my electrical gremlins....
« on: September 05, 2010, 11:09:08 AM »
I am having a devil of a time chasing after electrical problems.
This is 750K, I bought a 73 partsnmore wireharness and went to great lengths to secure some NOS switch gear to work with the 73 harness. Specifically to avoid electrical problems.  It's not my strong point.

The engine is a 76.

What works:
-the engine turns over, not even thinking about starting it yet
-tail light, brake lights work
-tach and speedo lights work
-oil pres light works

What doesn't work:
-turn signals only flash as 4 way flashers   -- Using led turn signals with a built in resistors so the flash rate is stock.
I'm using the solid orange and light blue wires only as I don't want running lights on the front.

-horn doesn't work
-heasdlight has no power
-neutral light

Wires not in use from the main loom
-black wire that I believe is for the winker buzzer Has power when key is on.
--solid brown wire power on with key
-orange and white wire
-light blue with white
-brown with red and has a white band around it

Wires not in use from switch gear on left
-brown with blue ( winker buzzer )
-orange with white and the blue with white (front running lights )

Now for the most basic question:  Why do I have continuity from any ground wire in the headlight bucket and a solid black wire?
Would this not indicate that somewhere on my bike a black -power wire is shorted out to the frame or a black wire is plugged into a green ground wire?
I first noticed this when I was trying to get the horn to work.  I have continuity between the black wire at the horn and the green wire.

Sorry for the long post but I have been at it for 3 weeks now and not making any progress.  If I had hair I'd be pulling it out.

Any and all suggestions are appreciated.

Gary

Offline TwoTired

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Re: Help me kill my electrical gremlins....
« Reply #1 on: September 05, 2010, 11:45:25 AM »
There are different amounts of conductivity that range from Zero Ohms to infinity.

The headlight filament typically reads 2.4 ohms. Attach that to the power rails (Black and Green), and you have high conductivity between those rails.  Further, all the other devices connected in parallel across the power rails further lower resistance between rails.

The typical 10 amp current draw through the main fuse means that the standard resistance across the bike's power rails is about 1.2 ohms.

There are lots of measuring devices that can indicate conductivity.  Since I don't know what type you are using, I can only mention some have very little differentiation between 1.2 ohms and zero.  It is up the the operator to select the correct tool for the job.
You also didn't mention what level of conductivity you are measuring in your test case.

Cheers,



Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
72 500, 74 550, 75 550K, 75 550F, 76 550F, 77 550F X2, 78 550K, 77 750F X2, 78 750F, 79CX500, 85 700SC, GL1100

Those that learn from history are doomed to repeat it by those that don't learn from history.

Offline Toxic

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Re: Help me kill my electrical gremlins....
« Reply #2 on: September 05, 2010, 12:40:54 PM »
The meter I was using is basic in that the setting I am using merely tells me if there is any conductivity along a given path.

When I switch to this meter



With this meter set to what I believe measures Ohms  ( second setting from the top )  I get a reading of 2.2 between the black wires in the headlight bucket and the green ground wires.

Is this of any help?   Like I said I'm not skilled in electricity but am eager to learn.

Offline TwoTired

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Re: Help me kill my electrical gremlins....
« Reply #3 on: September 05, 2010, 05:37:58 PM »
Have you checked the owner's manual for your meter?
http://support.radioshack.com/productinfo/DocumentResults.asp?sku_id=22-802&Name=Meters%20and%20Scopes&Reuse=N

2.2 ohms is not a surprise (or alarming) measurement between Black and green with the key switch on.
Unless you are blowing fuses, I would probably use the the presence or absence of voltage to troubleshoot the bike's issues.

Do you have an accurate wire diagram that applies to your bike?  This is your "road map" for the routes electricity can make.
If something doesn't operate, either the electrical path is broken, or the device itself is faulty.  Headlights and horn, for example, can be attached directly to a charged battery to verify they function.  Once that is known, then you have find out what section of roadway for the electrons has been corrupted.  A wire or switch is like a bridge.  If traffic (voltage) is on one end of the bridge, but there is none at the other end, you can assume the bridge (wire or switch) is physically broken.  Either install a bypass or fix the bride to allow traffic to pass once again.
It is possible the route by have multiple breaks.  Chasing the path with a voltmeter probe can find where those breaks are.

This help?

Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
72 500, 74 550, 75 550K, 75 550F, 76 550F, 77 550F X2, 78 550K, 77 750F X2, 78 750F, 79CX500, 85 700SC, GL1100

Those that learn from history are doomed to repeat it by those that don't learn from history.

Offline Hush

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Re: Help me kill my electrical gremlins....
« Reply #4 on: September 05, 2010, 06:41:00 PM »
I'm crap with a metre too mate so I usually chase gremlins with a test bulb as TT suggested.
Anyhow maybe I can help with some minor matters. ;D
Wires not in use from the main loom
-black wire that I believe is for the winker buzzer Has power when key is on. This is a common power wire which is only live when key is on, runs a lot more things than your winker buzzer: connects to 10amp fuses also starter switch and engine kill switch so a power wire once key is on.
--solid brown wire power on with key this is your tail light power wire on Hondas.
-orange and white wire: Goes to front left turn signal, other end goes to turn signal switch.
-light blue with white: Goes to left front turn signal, other end goes back to turn signal switch.
-brown with red and has a white band around it: This has got me fooled but seems to be part of light circuit again.
As TT suggested, a battery power wire to one side of the horn and another to earth should activate that just as a test.
The neutral light wire is a green/red coming from the gearbox area, this is only an earth when the bike selector is in neutral and the power for the neutral light actually runs to the small bulb in the speedo, wiring for the neutral light is brown and black one side and green and red the other.
Hope some of this helps and I'm using a very general wiring diagram for Hondas.
I think the thing I most like about motorcycling is the speed at which my brain must process information at to avoid the numb skulls who are eating pies, playing the ukulele, applying make-up etc in the comfort of their airconditioned armchairs as they make random attempts to kill me!!!!!!!

Offline Toxic

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Re: Help me kill my electrical gremlins....
« Reply #5 on: September 06, 2010, 07:27:26 AM »
Thanks for the input guys.

TT thanks for the manual on my meter, learned reading it.  I'll print it out later.

I have 5 black hot wires in the bucket.  One is a single that the winker buzzer plugs into.
The other is a 4 way junction.
When I measure the resistance between any of these black wires and any of the green ground wires in the bucket I get 2.3 ohmns.  This is done with the ignition off.

With the key on and measuring voltage I get 11.3V at all of them. Batery is at 12.9V.

When I switch to measure continuity on the meter, why am I getting continuity between any black power wire and any ground wire or the frame as well?  Does this not indicate a pathway exists  between the positive and negative circuits?  I am not blowing any fuses.

The solid brown wire in the bucket is indeed the same wire for my tail light. But what is doing in the headlight bucket?  Not on the wiring diagram  It is only supposed to run from tail light to fuse then to ignition switch.

This is the wiring diagram I have been staring at for days.


Horn
The horn does work when  connected direct to the battery.  I do have power at the black horn wire connection.  I'm using the light bulb tester.

Turn signals

I thought the blue and orange wires with the white stripe were not used at all if you wanted to run without front running lights,  I will try connecting them and see what happens.

At this stage I'll be thrilled with any minor success.

thanks
Gary.
« Last Edit: September 06, 2010, 07:36:05 AM by Toxic »

Offline TwoTired

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Re: Help me kill my electrical gremlins....
« Reply #6 on: September 06, 2010, 10:31:39 AM »
When I measure the resistance between any of these black wires and any of the green ground wires in the bucket I get 2.3 ohmns.  This is done with the ignition off.
As I explained earlier, this is no surprise.  I can find no established norm or specification for the measurement you are intent upon.  Please explain why you are so focused about having a reference number for this test.
All the black wires are normally attached to resistive loads.  All the loads normally have an attachment to the green wires.
What is it you expect when measuring between the black and green wires?

With the key on and measuring voltage I get 11.3V at all of them. Battery is at 12.9V.
You measured this voltage difference between both places with the key on?  If s,o losing that much voltage means you have resistive connections on the power path, possibly the switch itself.  Either rebuild it or replace it.
It is unlike, however, this is not the cause of your present lack of function problems.  Bit, you'll have to fix it for later reliability.

When I switch to measure continuity on the meter, why am I getting continuity between any black power wire and any ground wire or the frame as well?  Does this not indicate a pathway exists  between the positive and negative circuits?  I am not blowing any fuses.
I already explained this.  ALL the loads are resistive and wired in parallel.  A bulb filament is simply a piece of conductive wire attached to the black and green wires (possibly through/via switches).  If you had no resistance, then the lights won't come on when you apply power, the coils won't work, etc.  The black wires are always attached to the loads.  The black wires are energized when the key switch connects them to the battery power source, and that makes the lights or other power using device operate.
If you measure the resistance of light bulb terminals, don't you get a resistance reading?  
Are you familiar with ohm's law? E=I/R

The solid brown wire in the bucket is indeed the same wire for my tail light. But what is doing in the headlight bucket?  Not on the wiring diagram  It is only supposed to run from tail light to fuse then to ignition switch.
Where did you get your wire harness?  Are you certain it is for a 73?
There were requirements in Europe to have a front running/parking lamp that was powered from the brown wire.
This Brown wire to the headlight bucket also shows up on the K6 model.

This is the wiring diagram I have been staring at for days.
Personally, I'd trust a real Honda source rather than clymer.
But then, now there is a question about whether your wire diagram accurately defines your wire harness.

Turn signals

I thought the blue and orange wires with the white stripe were not used at all if you wanted to run without front running lights,  I will try connecting them and see what happens.

At this stage I'll be thrilled with any minor success.

You are flailing about with only hope guiding you, IMO.  The white stripe wires you mention do not have to be connected as you originally suspected.   Electrics are not hard with a basic understanding, mystifying without.  You need to take one firm step at a time to gain knowledge and confidence.  The big picture is seldom revealed instantaneously.

Why did you replace the original harness?  Did that old harness have the brown wire in the bucket?

Cheers,
« Last Edit: September 06, 2010, 11:21:48 AM by TwoTired »
Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
72 500, 74 550, 75 550K, 75 550F, 76 550F, 77 550F X2, 78 550K, 77 750F X2, 78 750F, 79CX500, 85 700SC, GL1100

Those that learn from history are doomed to repeat it by those that don't learn from history.

Offline Toxic

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Re: Help me kill my electrical gremlins....
« Reply #7 on: September 06, 2010, 11:07:07 AM »
Thanks for the explanation. It is a learning process for sure.

The bike is a Resurrection project from a combination of three basket cases with no harness at all.  The harness I purchased is supposed to be for a 73.  It's the partsnmore one.
Based on this I sourced NOS switchgear for a 73 as I thought it would make my life easier.
I didn't mind the investment in the NOS gear as eventually after I collect the needed parts I do want to make it all stock. Over time I wish to collect the parts needed for a restore.

Yes I am still searching for that basic knowledge on bike wiring.  Indeed mystifying without.

Your post is very informative regarding ohms Resistance and my voltage, much appreciated. 

It's been several hours and I'm no further ahead so I think the best approach is as you say:
"Take one firm step at a time..."  To this end I think I will disconnect every wire and start over one circuit at a time.  Hopefully small successes will be inspiring.
I have a set of old switchgear from one of the donor bikes so I'll swap them in and see if it makes a difference.  Just because I bought NOS doesn't necessarily mean it's functional

I'll revert to the original wiring harness as well.

Right now orange wires are starting to look like brown so it's time for a break.  I'll get back at it tomorrow.

Thanks for the help.  This is pretty much the last hurdle to getting it running.





Offline TwoTired

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Re: Help me kill my electrical gremlins....
« Reply #8 on: September 06, 2010, 11:31:16 AM »
Did the Harness/controls, etc., that you bought come with any part numbers you can cross/verify with Honda parts listing?

If you know for certain what you have rather than what the salesman told you, it might make finding accurate diagrams more helpful.

Do the amount and color of wires from your bar controls match the diagram you are using?

The horn should be pretty simple.  The Black wire that you know gets 12V, connects to one horn terminal.  The LG wire from the left bar control needs a path from it to the other terminal of the horn.  When the button is pressed, the LG wire connects to the bars, which should connect to the frame, which should connect to Battery NEG terminal.  Beep.

This ought to be a pretty simple victory to claim.

Then move on to the next item.

Cheers,
Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
72 500, 74 550, 75 550K, 75 550F, 76 550F, 77 550F X2, 78 550K, 77 750F X2, 78 750F, 79CX500, 85 700SC, GL1100

Those that learn from history are doomed to repeat it by those that don't learn from history.

Offline Toxic

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Re: Help me kill my electrical gremlins....
« Reply #9 on: September 06, 2010, 01:22:35 PM »
I was unable to completely verify that they were indeed for a 73 as they came with no part numbers.  But in looking at pics of bikes that were reputed to be original they do look like the right ones.

right side


left side


All of the wires coming from the switch gear do match the wiring dia above.

I made one more trip to the garage to check basics and here is what I found.
With the key on I have power to both sides of the fuse relay for the tail light and the main fuse as you would expect but there is no power to the fuse for the headlight.
With the head light on off switch in the on position I should have power on either side of the head light fuse but I don't so it's a matter of chasing that wire back through the harness.

All in all a very frustrating day but I did learn some new things.

Offline Toxic

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Re: Help me kill my electrical gremlins....
« Reply #10 on: September 06, 2010, 02:57:25 PM »
... and tomorrow I'll try to make my bike go "beep"

Offline Hush

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Re: Help me kill my electrical gremlins....
« Reply #11 on: September 06, 2010, 03:22:29 PM »
That is one beautiful bike mate, er when you say "return to stock" you are only thinking of the electrics eh?
It would be a sin to take that massively upgraded bike back to stock configuration surely!
You have the bones of a great looking project there...damn she's pretty. :)
I think the thing I most like about motorcycling is the speed at which my brain must process information at to avoid the numb skulls who are eating pies, playing the ukulele, applying make-up etc in the comfort of their airconditioned armchairs as they make random attempts to kill me!!!!!!!

Offline Toxic

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Re: Help me kill my electrical gremlins....
« Reply #12 on: September 06, 2010, 04:06:19 PM »
Thanks for the compliment.

I think I would like to build another one that is totally stock.  Once I get this one done that is.  I was thinking of converting to a stock configuration once I have accumulated the needed parts but the more I think about it ... I've gone too far towards a cafe to revert back to a stock.  It would be cheaper and easier to start a separate project sometime in the future.

It's pretty but also Pretty useless without electrics. lol

... and the irony is not lost me that a guy who knows he sucks at electrical work goes out and gets a new harness and new switch gear in an effort to greatly reduce any chances of electrical woes and still ends up in this mess.

It's a learning process for sure.

Offline Toxic

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Re: Help me kill my electrical gremlins....
« Reply #13 on: September 12, 2010, 11:50:00 AM »
OK back at it, I had to take a week off as I was getting nowhere.

So I think I have a leed as to one problem.

I have no power at the headlight fuse when the ign switch is in the on position.  



So in following the dia above.
-the brown/red at the tail light fuse goes to the brown/white that goes to the ign switch.
 If I have no continuity along this path then there is a break in the wire?

yes / no???

There is continuity from the brown/white wire in the ign switch to the 5 way junction in the headlight bucket.

Does this make sense as a logical point to start looking for a break in the wireing?

thanks
Gary
 
« Last Edit: September 12, 2010, 12:12:59 PM by Toxic »

Offline TwoTired

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Re: Help me kill my electrical gremlins....
« Reply #14 on: September 12, 2010, 12:49:43 PM »
According to the Honda Wire Diagram pg 220 Chapter 20...

The BR/R wire for the headlight fuse is spiced to the BR/W wires inside the wire harness.  That is how the fuse receives power for distribution to the headlight switch on the bar control.
Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
72 500, 74 550, 75 550K, 75 550F, 76 550F, 77 550F X2, 78 550K, 77 750F X2, 78 750F, 79CX500, 85 700SC, GL1100

Those that learn from history are doomed to repeat it by those that don't learn from history.

Offline Toxic

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Re: Help me kill my electrical gremlins....
« Reply #15 on: September 12, 2010, 01:14:41 PM »
According to the Honda Wire Diagram pg 220 Chapter 20...

The BR/R wire for the headlight fuse is spiced to the BR/W wires inside the wire harness.  That is how the fuse receives power for distribution to the headlight switch on the bar control.

Thanks, I'm understanding that but is my understanding correct ... "if I don't have continuity between the BR/R wire at the headlight fuse and the BR/W in the ign switch then there is a break inside my wire harness?"

I have continuity from the 5 way BR/W connector in the headlight to the BR/W wire at the ign switch so I know that pathway is fine.

As I read the wiring dia above I should have continuity between the BR/R wire at the fuse and all the BR/W in the harness because as you say they are supposed to be connected.

This would seem to be the first place to start taking apart the wire harness.

thanks for your input TT

Offline TwoTired

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Re: Help me kill my electrical gremlins....
« Reply #16 on: September 12, 2010, 03:19:33 PM »
There are two BR/R wires attached to the fuse.  One is a supply, one is a drain.

The supply wire should attach to the BR/W and be Hot when the light switch is on. (Should be easy to check with a voltmeter)

The other BR/R wire from the fuse goes to the Headlight H/L switch for distribution onto the white or dark blue wires.

You have to verify that the Br/W indeed gets hot, and the Br/R is or is not.

If there is a BR/R in the headlight bucket that does not come from(to) the H/L control, it may simply need to have a jumper between BR/w to BR/R to get it working. 
Later models that eliminated the Lighting on/off switch had this jumper.  I mention this because of the uncertainty about the wire harness you purchased. The internal wire connections inside the harness differed.

So seek out ALL the BR/Red wires.  You can verify with continuity to which end of the headlight fuse they connect (Fuse removed).
You gotta have a gozinta before you expect power on the gozouta.

Cheers,

Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
72 500, 74 550, 75 550K, 75 550F, 76 550F, 77 550F X2, 78 550K, 77 750F X2, 78 750F, 79CX500, 85 700SC, GL1100

Those that learn from history are doomed to repeat it by those that don't learn from history.

Offline dusterdude

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Re: Help me kill my electrical gremlins....
« Reply #17 on: September 12, 2010, 04:08:52 PM »
not sure about the 73 models,but i can tell you for sure that the right side switch is the same as my k1
mark
1972 k1 750
1949 fl panhead
1 1/2 gl1100 goldwings
1998 cbr600 f3

Offline Toxic

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Re: Help me kill my electrical gremlins....
« Reply #18 on: September 12, 2010, 04:46:58 PM »
There are two BR/R wires attached to the fuse.  One is a supply, one is a drain.

The supply wire should attach to the BR/W and be Hot when the light switch is on. (Should be easy to check with a voltmeter)

The other BR/R wire from the fuse goes to the Headlight H/L switch for distribution onto the white or dark blue wires.

You have to verify that the Br/W indeed gets hot, and the Br/R is or is not.

If there is a BR/R in the headlight bucket that does not come from(to) the H/L control, it may simply need to have a jumper between BR/w to BR/R to get it working. 
Later models that eliminated the Lighting on/off switch had this jumper.  I mention this because of the uncertainty about the wire harness you purchased. The internal wire connections inside the harness differed.

So seek out ALL the BR/Red wires.  You can verify with continuity to which end of the headlight fuse they connect (Fuse removed).
You gotta have a gozinta before you expect power on the gozouta.

Cheers,



Thanks for the fantastic support, I really appreciate it. I would be truely lost with out your guidance.

All my "gozinta" power supply feeds are now organized so that they are on the right hand side of the fuse block.

I have no power at the BR/R at the fuse block. I will have to remove the stock airbox in order to get access to the 6 way connector where the BR/W joins the BR/R wire. It must be along this BR/W path that there is a break, might be this 6 way connector is faulty

All my RB/R wires in the bucket are accounted for.

There is continuity along the BR/R  path to the headlight bucket so I'm ok there.


Thanks again
Gary