Author Topic: Legal Action BIG H v David Silver Spares  (Read 18430 times)

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Offline demon78

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Re: Legal Action BIG H v David Silver Spares
« Reply #25 on: October 16, 2010, 04:37:49 AM »
I'm in, if we get screwed maybe the way to go is become a world wide club and manufacture our own parts under the label anti-H, the bike industry has had it to soft for too long, the auto industry has to stock parts for cars for a lot longer than the bike manufacturers.
Bill the demon.

DH

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Re: Legal Action BIG H v David Silver Spares
« Reply #26 on: October 16, 2010, 12:04:13 PM »
I don't understand why Honda can't license independent companies
to reproduce vintage parts for the older models. As long as they're built to Honda specs, what would be the problem? I would think that the blueprints for the parts would be tucked away still somewhere, so it shouldn't be hard to manufacture. Honda and manufacturers
make a profit and the customer gets what they need. Build parts in batches when demand is high enough. Honda wouldn't really have to do anything but collect royalties. I don't get it.

Offline Hush

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Re: Legal Action BIG H v David Silver Spares
« Reply #27 on: October 16, 2010, 12:48:13 PM »
I guess the "baby boomers" like most of us Honda restorers are, like to rebuild the bikes of our youth, the ones we salivated over but could not afford as spotty teenagers.
Honda see us as a growing potential market for thier new models of shiney rice rockets and therefore the temptation to restrict parts to rebuilders would make economic sense to them.
Not sure how to fight back this one, I'll drop a line to DSS, one of the guys there was most helpful when I was having trouble sourcing the correct clutch cable for me a few months back and we corresponded quite a bit, I'll see how worried DSS are. :)
I think the thing I most like about motorcycling is the speed at which my brain must process information at to avoid the numb skulls who are eating pies, playing the ukulele, applying make-up etc in the comfort of their airconditioned armchairs as they make random attempts to kill me!!!!!!!

Offline bogornd

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Re: Legal Action BIG H v David Silver Spares
« Reply #28 on: October 16, 2010, 12:54:13 PM »
count me in on any action.
DSS make life worth living.

Offline madmtnmotors

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Re: Legal Action BIG H v David Silver Spares
« Reply #29 on: October 16, 2010, 01:32:43 PM »
Definitely keep us posted as to DSS position and if they think we can help. To undermine our efforts to keep our aging motorcycles in good working order by limiting our resourses for replacement parts, when they refuse to provide them to boot, stands to change my overall opinion of the big H in a very negative way. I'll park mine and look at other manufacturer's parts support for future rides. I know the aftermarket for H-D can virtually provide a complete motocycle with no factory parts, although "bang for buck" ratio may suffer...
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Offline ttr400

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Re: Legal Action BIG H v David Silver Spares
« Reply #30 on: October 16, 2010, 01:49:14 PM »
The action is about DSS importing parts from outside the EEA. How this is a trade mark infringement, I don't know, as they are still Honda made parts, sounds pretty studip to me.

I don't see any mention of replica or aftermarket parts being affected anywhere.  Plus this they will never be able to stop as parts are being made all over the world.

If this action is about a trade mark infringement, what about all the company's that import grey/parallel bikes into differant parts of the world?

I don't think DSS has anything to worry about.

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Offline MCRider

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Re: Legal Action BIG H v David Silver Spares
« Reply #31 on: October 16, 2010, 01:57:19 PM »
The action is about DSS importing parts from outside the EEA. How this is a trade mark infringement, I don't know, as they are still Honda made parts, sounds pretty studip to me.

I don't see any mention of replica or aftermarket parts being affected anywhere.  Plus this they will never be able to stop as parts are being made all over the world.

If this action is about a trade mark infringement, what about all the company's that import grey/parallel bikes into differant parts of the world?

I don't think DSS has anything to worry about.

Kevin
Again I agree with the sentiment. But its not about what about this guy or what about that guy. Its about the target. And DSS ended up with a big bullseye on them. And you can believe the attys think they have a winnable action or they never would have brought it, whether we understand the technicalities or not.   >:(   :(
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beemerboy

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Re: Legal Action BIG H v David Silver Spares
« Reply #32 on: October 16, 2010, 02:02:37 PM »
Hey...

You guys just don't get it. The profit is in selling new bikes. Not old ones!

The Collector/Restorer market is minuscule compared to the new bike market, while manufacturing and re-manufacturing costs keep rising and profit margins get thinner and thinner. Can you really buy newly manufactured, factory parts for an X-six Hustler? If the Big Three really thought that they could make a handsome profit by catering to old bike nuts, don't you think they'd be pumping out parts? The truth is that carrying 60 or 70 years worth of a complete spare parts inventory, is a nice idea but it'd be a huge $$$$$$$$$ loser for the manufacturers, who would have to store the stuff, keep records, pay taxes on the unsold inventory, pay staff to market it and then at some point, tool up to reproduce more old stuff for a limited market, using modern techniques and equipment. In other words, it aint gonna happen.

Also, those of us who play with old bikes want our parts dirt cheap! Most of us (The Boomers anyway.) have our values stuck in the 60's and and 70's. When someone comes along and tries to sell us vintage parts at 2010 prices, we start talking about how the sellers or marketers or manufacturers are gouging us, instead of saying "Thanks! I couldn't have gotten that gismo anyplace else in the world!"

The mistake that David Silver made was to import Official Honda Parts, without getting an import license from Honda and and paying them. Unless he can prove that the current international laws are unjust or legally flawed, hes probably going to have to cease and desist, pay a big fine and Honda may be able to claim the unsold merchandise.

I recently restored a period performance-style BMW Airhead and it took me several years to collect the parts I needed from parted-out bikes, collectors, old parts dealers, and Internet sources. It also took a lot of cash. The exhaust system that cost $175 brand new in 1980 cost me $600 plus shipping two years ago but thats the price you pay if you want to play. OTOH,  you can also buy high quality, newly produced parts for several no longer manufactured marques (Indian, Vincent, etc.) but your pockets had better be very deep! The guys who are making that stuff have wives, kids, mortgages and insurance to pay and the bills are coming in at 2010 prices.

As I see it, the bike manufacturers are no different than the car folks but somehow no one (Not even the car collectors/restorers.) gets angry at GM, when they cant go to the dealer and buy a new fender or vintage tube radio for their 1964 Oldsmobile Starfire. It's just the way it is and we accept it. OTOH, when it comes to bikes (And especially among Honda lovers for some reason.) everyones #$%*in and moanin about the costs. All I can say is, be glad that you're obsessed with Honda's instead of BMW's, Laverda's, Morini's or any of the really exotic brands. To most of us, Honda parts are dead cheap!

Lastly....

Soichiro Honda wouldn't be "turning in his grave". He'd probably be saying "This is the modern world! We at Honda have to leave the past behind and produce the best motorcycles and cars in the world, for todays buyers. If we try to live in the past, we will disappear like a beautiful snowflake when the sun comes out."

And he'd be telling the truth.
« Last Edit: October 16, 2010, 03:05:56 PM by beemerboy »

Offline MCRider

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Re: Legal Action BIG H v David Silver Spares
« Reply #33 on: October 16, 2010, 02:11:19 PM »
Yeah that's it beenerboy, sad to say.

i was in Honda dealerships when the first GL1000 came out. Word was at the time that Soichiro was against it, he want ed the CB750 to be the high end of the line, but the board outvoted him. I think it was shortly after that he was out of the picture. I may be wrong, that's my memory of the time line.

and of course the GL1000 was a movnster success. So not everything the founder wanted was the best for the company, or the industry. GLs raised the standard in many areas. Current GL1800s are monster machines, fast, comforatble handle extremely well, etc.

I can't see myself with one. I rode my CB750 till it puked and hope to again.

Time is a #$%*.
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Offline dave500

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Re: Legal Action BIG H v David Silver Spares
« Reply #34 on: October 16, 2010, 09:39:21 PM »
david silvers probably cant really tell us exactly whats going on legally,he knows we all love him and will do what we can,im still keen to petion honda.,or might that be seen as an aggression and make it worse?i dont understand the technical side of legal wank,but honda have sold these parts and dont belong to them,if i bought 100 sets of brake pads and on sold them here for a mark up one by one over time is that against the law?if i sold my honda and had new parts left over can i sell them ?we better watch what we say here,honda will be watching.

Offline AshimotoK0

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Re: Legal Action BIG H v David Silver Spares
« Reply #35 on: October 17, 2010, 04:48:37 AM »
I agree - David Silver is hardly going to reveal where he is at with a legal case, that's why I have not emailed him (he emailed me last year regarding the poor quality of chroming on Honda Fenders in relation to a post I started here)

I don't mind paying for parts at todays prices, and I appreciate everyone has a living to make. But Yamiya's stuff is way over the top at $1300 for a repro K0 fender.

cheers

Ash
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Offline MCRider

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Re: Legal Action BIG H v David Silver Spares
« Reply #36 on: October 17, 2010, 12:21:38 PM »
david silvers probably cant really tell us exactly whats going on legally,he knows we all love him and will do what we can,im still keen to petion honda.,or might that be seen as an aggression and make it worse?i dont understand the technical side of legal wank,but honda have sold these parts and dont belong to them,if i bought 100 sets of brake pads and on sold them here for a mark up one by one over time is that against the law?if i sold my honda and had new parts left over can i sell them ?we better watch what we say here,honda will be watching.
The difference between DSS and your example is, he is holding himself out as being in the business. You are a private person selling private property. If you were holding yourself out, you'd have the same liability.
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beemerboy

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Re: Legal Action BIG H v David Silver Spares
« Reply #37 on: October 17, 2010, 12:56:08 PM »
david silvers probably cant really tell us exactly whats going on legally,he knows we all love him and will do what we can,im still keen to petion honda.
SNIP!

This may well be my last contribution to this thread but...

You can send Honda all of the petitions you please and I doubt that it'll do anything beyond wasting your time. If David Silvers has violated the law (And it appears on first glance as if he has.)  Honda has a responsibility to it's shareholders to defend the brand, and they will do so with great enthusiasm and tenacity.

If you want to sell off your spares after a build, no ones going to care but if you buy yourself a boat-load of under-priced Honda parts, ship em home, skip paying Honda it's licensing fees and then begin competing with the local dealers, Honda will come down hard on you.

Unfortunately, thats the way the modern business world works and lawyers get rich in the process.

PS: I really doubt that the folks at Honda give a rats a** what you say about them on an Internet chat board, where you're protected by freedom of speech laws but try putting up a web site bashing Honda and see what happens! Loll!! Corporations have the same standing in court that a private individual has and that includes the right to protect themselves from "Harm". That adds up to a giant with several billion dollars in it's pocket. Go ahead... Take a swing! ;D

Sad but true.
« Last Edit: October 17, 2010, 01:00:09 PM by beemerboy »

Offline JBMorse

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Re: Legal Action BIG H v David Silver Spares
« Reply #38 on: October 17, 2010, 01:16:36 PM »
Hey...

You guys just don't get it. The profit is in selling new bikes. Not old ones!
...



I don't know, dude, the parts counter at my local dealer is always a hell of a lot busier than the sales floor!  I think the OEM parts market, vintage or not, is important to the company.  Honda sold how many SOHC4s in their day?  And plenty of those are still on the road being kept up by us, who would gladly pay for the parts to keep them going.
I know we're a relatively small market, but I wouldn't underestimate the significance of it.  Also, how many of us SOHC4 owners would get a Honda if we wanted something new, because of how much we love our SOHCs? 
Not that I know anything about the costs and business aspects of vintage parts, but it seems to me that there's a market and Honda could (and does) sell a lot of them.
I hope DSS doesn't get in too deep, they do a good service to us and hopefully make a good profit at it!
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Offline 754

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Re: Legal Action BIG H v David Silver Spares
« Reply #39 on: October 17, 2010, 01:30:55 PM »
 Believe me , Honda has no interest in our bikes being able to run fourever..

 They do however, have a slight interest in maintaining the popularity/exposure, of the Honda name.. probably the reason they decided to re-issue pipes. Having nice examples of them out there, promotes the idea of Honda reliability & longivity..(but they wont do that for most models, just not worth it)

 But really, they want to sell lots of new product..
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Offline Hush

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Re: Legal Action BIG H v David Silver Spares
« Reply #40 on: October 17, 2010, 01:49:47 PM »
I can't see the point or economic sense in a huge conglomerate like Honda spending $$ on legal firms at the prices they charge to take on a small business like DSS when as has been stated Honda don't really care about the rebuild market?
Pride and Copyright might be one thing but the Japanese always look at the income generating stream before all other considerations.
I think the thing I most like about motorcycling is the speed at which my brain must process information at to avoid the numb skulls who are eating pies, playing the ukulele, applying make-up etc in the comfort of their airconditioned armchairs as they make random attempts to kill me!!!!!!!

Offline HondanutRider

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Re: Legal Action BIG H v David Silver Spares
« Reply #41 on: October 17, 2010, 02:49:04 PM »
This situation seems to inflame many of the Honda riders that read it.  I wonder if Honda realizes what bad PR it generates - or if they care.  I know that in the past I bought a few things (handgrips for some of my old bikes) and I saw they were available from David Silver.  I checked my local Honda dealer (not even a motorcycle sales but they can get parts if I supply the numbers) and found they were also available from Honda for about the same price.  So I favored my local dealer and purchased the parts through them.  Other times I've purchased parts from David Silver when they weren't available from Honda.  Guess where I will want to do business in the future? ::)  And when I want to replace my 2003 GL1800 or look for a new auto...that Honda brand just doesn't look that attractive anymore.

Offline MCRider

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Re: Legal Action BIG H v David Silver Spares
« Reply #42 on: October 17, 2010, 04:26:03 PM »
Hey...

You guys just don't get it. The profit is in selling new bikes. Not old ones!
...



I don't know, dude, the parts counter at my local dealer is always a hell of a lot busier than the sales floor!  I think the OEM parts market, vintage or not, is important to the company.  Honda sold how many SOHC4s in their day?  And plenty of those are still on the road being kept up by us, who would gladly pay for the parts to keep them going.
I know we're a relatively small market, but I wouldn't underestimate the significance of it.  Also, how many of us SOHC4 owners would get a Honda if we wanted something new, because of how much we love our SOHCs? 
Not that I know anything about the costs and business aspects of vintage parts, but it seems to me that there's a market and Honda could (and does) sell a lot of them.
I hope DSS doesn't get in too deep, they do a good service to us and hopefully make a good profit at it!

I spent many years in Honda Dealership parts departments. In the best of dealers, Parts and Service are break even propositions...at BEST. Overhead v income is just too high.  Parts and Service may be busy...they just don't make any money. I've never heard anything different that's changed that relationship. If you don't sell new bikes, you don't make money. period.
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Ron
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Offline Hush

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Re: Legal Action BIG H v David Silver Spares
« Reply #43 on: October 18, 2010, 12:33:24 PM »
Just had a email from David Silver, he knows we are watching this situation and many others around the world are too, our concerns are appreciated by DSS.
He asks that we save our powder (a good analogy) as this situation unfolds, and with a nod being as good as a wink we should do as he asks, it may be that we have a role to play in the future of all this.

                                                                                                                 Hush.
I think the thing I most like about motorcycling is the speed at which my brain must process information at to avoid the numb skulls who are eating pies, playing the ukulele, applying make-up etc in the comfort of their airconditioned armchairs as they make random attempts to kill me!!!!!!!

Offline Duke McDukiedook

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Re: Legal Action BIG H v David Silver Spares
« Reply #44 on: October 18, 2010, 01:06:11 PM »
I will be waiting pen in hand, envelopes and stamps at the ready.

We may have to begin a full-on letter writing assault when we hear the word.  :)
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Re: Legal Action BIG H v David Silver Spares
« Reply #45 on: October 19, 2010, 03:20:44 AM »
Just had a email from David Silver, he knows we are watching this situation and many others around the world are too, our concerns are appreciated by DSS.
He asks that we save our powder (a good analogy) as this situation unfolds, and with a nod being as good as a wink we should do as he asks, it may be that we have a role to play in the future of all this.

                                                                                                                 Hush.


These bikes we love have already changed history once this generation....why not again??

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Offline burmashave

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Re: Legal Action BIG H v David Silver Spares
« Reply #46 on: October 19, 2010, 07:30:39 AM »
Firstly, bite me!

Yes, Honda has the right to aggressively protect its brand; however, examples abound of companies that defended their mark too aggressively, sometimes to their own detriment. Does anyone remember the horrible press that Disney got after it forced a day care center to paint over its Disney character murals?

As one who only bets on sure things, I will put my money on Honda lawyers versus any petition. On the other hand, be aware that it is, at least in the US, common to have clauses in contracts that are legally unenforceable (read a few EULA's and you'll know what I'm talking about).

With those two thoughts in mind, Honda will only consider backing down if sales of profitable items are threatened. If potential new buyers take issue with Honda's stand, there is a possibility for a reasonable agreement with DSS. Alternately, if DSS can do something outrageous to garner attention, as the day care center did by bringing in Warner Brothers artists to paint murals, DSS may be able to shame Honda into some sort of agreement.

I see some potential in the area of shaming Honda. Honda may well be within its legal rights. To a certain extent, Honda is arguing a somewhat arcane contract clause. Perhaps DSS can find a way to highlight its plight by demonstrating the ludicrousness of Honda's demands in a David versus Goliath struggle.

Alternately, there may be some room to get potential Honda buyers to simply ask their dealers how long will Honda be supplying parts for their new purchase.
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Offline CrankyOldGuy

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Re: Legal Action BIG H v David Silver Spares
« Reply #47 on: June 05, 2011, 06:43:28 AM »
I noticed on the DSS site that effective June 1st that they will only be selling parts for Hondas manufactured before 2002.

Anyone know if this was part of a deal with Honda?

Harry O.
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Offline mrbreeze

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Re: Legal Action BIG H v David Silver Spares
« Reply #48 on: June 05, 2011, 10:00:38 AM »
I don't know about any deal with Honda but I'm glad they will still be supplying parts for our beloved SOHC's. (far as I'm concerned............the cut off year could be 1978)............(maybe even 1976!!!!........just kidding ;D ;D).
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Fool me once..shame on you. Fool me twice..I'm kickin' your a$$......

Offline dave500

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Re: Legal Action BIG H v David Silver Spares
« Reply #49 on: June 05, 2011, 12:34:21 PM »
maybe because manufacturers must supply parts for ten years after the model and they want that captive audience?