Author Topic: IGNITION - Points Adjustment Issues..... Help and Advice Requested!  (Read 1420 times)

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Offline HedNut

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Hello Guys....

I can't seem to find the answer...and am slightly boggled at what is happening...  I'm hoping that somebody had the same experience and can tell me what I'm doing wrong or what is going on...

LOW DOWN:

1) My bike runs good....but the timing is off (only set by eye to crack open the points at TDC)

2) Went to adjust the points....hooked up the strobe....upon any adjustment to either or set of points the bike either revv's or bogs and dies Quick....within 2-3 degree's of adjustment total.  (barely moving it)

3) I was trying to adjust each point set seperatly as they are close to the marks.

-1&4 Point set is close to the T mark (slightly retarded)
-2&3 Point set is close to the F mark (slightly advaced)....are they even supposed to be close to the F mark?...I thought it would also be the T but that's way out to lunch....and can't even imagine getting it to run over there.

Any idea why my bike would stall quick within 1-2 degree adjustment each way??

I've played with many single cylinder point'd ignitions and was usually able to adjust it quite a bit to make the bike stall... this is my first with a 4 cylinder / dual point setup...

ANY and All comments are Greatly appreciated!!!

Thanks in advance!
Cheers,
Brendan



Offline bryanj

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Re: IGNITION - Points Adjustment Issues..... Help and Advice Requested!
« Reply #1 on: November 26, 2010, 08:57:12 AM »
Firstly you must set the contact gap accurately at 14 thou, then do the Static timing to the "F" mark, you only use a strobe to check that the advancer is working NOTHING ELSE
Semi Geriatric ex-Honda mechanic and MOT tester (UK version of annual inspection). Garage full of "projects" mostly 500/4 from pre 73 (no road tax in UK).

Remember "Its always in the last place you look" COURSE IT IS YOU STOP LOOKIN THEN!



Offline HedNut

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Re: IGNITION - Points Adjustment Issues..... Help and Advice Requested!
« Reply #2 on: November 26, 2010, 09:07:59 AM »
So 14 thou gap at MAX. lobe height...on both points.

And both points are supposed to open at F?

That's a start! Thanks



bollingball

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Re: IGNITION - Points Adjustment Issues..... Help and Advice Requested!
« Reply #3 on: November 26, 2010, 09:55:19 AM »
bryanj Firstly you must set the contact gap accurately at 14 thou, then do the Static timing to the "F" mark, you only use a strobe to check that the advancer is working NOTHING ELSE ??? ???

You use the timing light to check your timing is correct.with light hook up to 1 or 4 plug wire the i&4 F mark should line up with index mark same for 2&3 then you can check to see if advancer is working by reving up the motor to see if it is fully advancing at 2500rpm. Also you need a dwell meter to check you points after you get them rough set to 14 thou

                              Ken



Offline HedNut

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Re: IGNITION - Points Adjustment Issues..... Help and Advice Requested!
« Reply #4 on: November 26, 2010, 09:59:52 AM »
Right on... So they SHOULD BOTH line up with the F mark!  That could be one of my big problems with stalling (I'm excited...cause it runs "well" right now... should be crispy awesome with it done properly!

And.... dwell meter.... I'll have to get one and learn how to do that!

Thanks!! 

14 thou gap, strobe so opens at F...and set dwell properly!   Cheers! And thanks so much!



bollingball

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Re: IGNITION - Points Adjustment Issues..... Help and Advice Requested!
« Reply #5 on: November 26, 2010, 10:30:24 AM »
Dwell first then timing. It is very important to do things in the correct order. (1)-adjust cam chain (2)-adj. valves (3)-spark plugs (clean&gap) (4)-check condensers (5)-points (6)-timing (7)-air filter (8)-carbs



Offline BLUE71TURBO

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Re: IGNITION - Points Adjustment Issues..... Help and Advice Requested!
« Reply #6 on: November 26, 2010, 10:47:21 AM »

     Install an electronic ignition and forget about it !   ;D
Remember; Before you can be old and wise, you must first be young and stupid !



bollingball

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Re: IGNITION - Points Adjustment Issues..... Help and Advice Requested!
« Reply #7 on: November 26, 2010, 11:04:09 AM »
That is not fair ;D I still like the old ways. All that electronic stuff moves around to fast for this old fart.



Offline BLUE71TURBO

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Remember; Before you can be old and wise, you must first be young and stupid !



Offline Kong

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Re: IGNITION - Points Adjustment Issues..... Help and Advice Requested!
« Reply #9 on: November 26, 2010, 01:13:56 PM »

     Install an electronic ignition and forget about it !   ;D

^  +1
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Offline HondanutRider

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Re: IGNITION - Points Adjustment Issues..... Help and Advice Requested!
« Reply #10 on: November 26, 2010, 03:00:40 PM »
As has been stated before, the first adjustment is to set the correct point gap, which is the maximum opening for the points.  The second adjustment is to set the opening of the points to be at the F mark for each.  This is done with the motor off and maybe even the plugs out so that it can be turned easily without compression working against you.  You turn the motor over with the large nut on the flywheel while reading when the points are just opening with either a simple bulb hooked up to the circuit or using a VOM to read the resistance.  (If you look at a wiring diagram, you see that the points when they close merely provide a path to ground for the coils, so use that to figure out how/what to measure.  I.E. unless you disconnect the points lead to the coil to measure the resistance to ground, you have to either measure the coil's impedance to ground or a voltage to positive battery.)

I wouldn't worry about a dwell meter (that measures how long in degrees the points remain open, and hence relates to the point gap), nor would I rely too much on the timing light (except to see that the advance happens under speed...what it reads is not very accurate with the timing marks and a lot of the lights have trouble firing off our spark leads anyways).



Offline Bodi

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Re: IGNITION - Points Adjustment Issues..... Help and Advice Requested!
« Reply #11 on: November 26, 2010, 03:32:29 PM »
"what it reads is not very accurate with the timing marks"

wtf?

Setting timing with a strobe is the only accurate way. It's totally accurate. Static timing is only approximate, although with practice you can get consistently close to correct.

Set the static timing to get the engine running well enough to do the real timing adjustment with a strobe.

The usual problem with these points plates is that the plate is loose in the engine, trying to turn the plate to adjust 1-2 timing shifts it sideways, throwing the timing way off and messing up both gap settings as well. This has been talked about before, what you do is shim the three centreing tabs to eliminate any sloppiness so that the plate is snug and doesn't move except to rotate. Then set gaps and static timing, then final timing with a strobe.
The engine runs at full advance almost all the time. Set timing exactly at the advance mark (2000 RPM+) then check that idle timing is close to the T mark - it doesn't need to be exact. This gives you the correct spark timing when youre actually riding, and idle advance (is not critical. If you want to experiment with additional advance this is the only way to get consistent settings. Honda set the ignition advance with a bit of a safety factor: if you use good gasoline, even a higher octane, then you can set the spark with more advance and get a power increase that's quite noticeable. If you go too far or burn bad gas on a high-octane advance setting... you may melt holes in your pistons.



Offline HondanutRider

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Re: IGNITION - Points Adjustment Issues..... Help and Advice Requested!
« Reply #12 on: November 26, 2010, 04:09:23 PM »
"what it reads is not very accurate with the timing marks"

wtf?

Setting timing with a strobe is the only accurate way. It's totally accurate. Static timing is only approximate, although with practice you can get consistently close to correct.


I disagree with your statement that: "Static timing is only approximate".  Static timing marks (the F marks) are accurate to the way these motors were designed and built.  But, and this is the important point, the F marks were not intended to be set while the motor was turning - it is after-all a "static" setting mark.

What I meant by my comment is that timing lights are sometimes (I've found...maybe my lights have been poor quality?) hard to read or pick-up the strobe firing signal, as well as providing a fluctuating spot you try to hit.  Also, as soon as the motor turns at idle speed I suspect the advance may start to kick in and give an advanced reading from what the Honda static F mark was intended to provide, as well as bouncing around when observed with a strobe.  I've set-up Hondas by both methods and observed this - set static to be dead-on without running and then hooked-up a strobe to see it advanced.   Back in the day, the F mark was tied to the correct static timing location using, as recommended by Honda, a lamp to set when the points open.  Using a lamp (or the VOM) and carefully turning the motor by hand can give a very accurate reading for this "engineered" static timing mark.

What you went on to say about the loose plate is probably a good explanation for why timing can be difficult to set or erratic.



Offline Spanner 1

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Re: IGNITION - Points Adjustment Issues..... Help and Advice Requested!
« Reply #13 on: November 26, 2010, 04:36:27 PM »
You should be able to static time your bike with a light/meter to the F mark and then check it with a strobe at idle ( 1,100 rpm ) and see the same result as the advancer should NOT be advanced any @ idle, so a strobe is useful to check for weak advance springs and for full advance marks showing @ 2,500 rpm too......
in other words, you should always static time the bike first, to eliminate any advancer problem giving a false F mark when 'strobed' with a running motor..... btw., the best way to turn the motor with the plugs in is to jab the kickstarter with your left hand while looking at the points 'window'... no wrench required ;)
« Last Edit: November 26, 2010, 04:47:44 PM by Spanner 1 »



Offline HondanutRider

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Re: IGNITION - Points Adjustment Issues..... Help and Advice Requested!
« Reply #14 on: November 26, 2010, 04:51:17 PM »
Did some more digging and maybe I was back more in the 60's where a strobe timing light wasn't the way to do it.  Found this explanation for what/how a timing light can be made to read better, but I still believe that you can be very accurate with the "static" method.



Offline dave500

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Re: IGNITION - Points Adjustment Issues..... Help and Advice Requested!
« Reply #15 on: November 26, 2010, 07:04:34 PM »
the very old type of light that dosent have power leads to the battery are like that.



Offline bryanj

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Re: IGNITION - Points Adjustment Issues..... Help and Advice Requested!
« Reply #16 on: November 29, 2010, 12:20:56 AM »
The Honda manual sez to use the strobe just to check the advance( as long as its anywhere between the two lines its OK), and unless the advance is new with new springs it will be starting to advance at tickover which will throw the "F" mark out.

Yes its a pain to do right
Yes it takes time and practice to do right
Yes when you rotate the plate the points gap moves(and when you alter the gap the timing moves)

BUT if you spend the time and effort, with nothing more than a feeler gauge and a bulb with wires you can get it correct and it will run properly.

The following Caveats must be observed



(1) there must be NO "PIP" on the contact surface at all and they must mate correctly

(2) You must be proficient with a feeler gauge, and without being rude MOST people who dint use them a lot get the gaps wrong---which is where a dwell meter comes in!
Semi Geriatric ex-Honda mechanic and MOT tester (UK version of annual inspection). Garage full of "projects" mostly 500/4 from pre 73 (no road tax in UK).

Remember "Its always in the last place you look" COURSE IT IS YOU STOP LOOKIN THEN!