Author Topic: wiring question - neutral/ground ???  (Read 1575 times)

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Offline timdhawk

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wiring question - neutral/ground ???
« on: January 30, 2011, 11:25:50 AM »
I hope I can make this make sence:

I am re-wiring the idiot lights with LED's. 3 are wired with the neutral green and the other 2 with the ground black. In the original incandescent set up, the 2 with black wires are wired so the black wire makes contact with the base of the bulb and the color code wire is to the bulb receptacle. The 3 with the green wires are wired so that the green wires make contact with the bulb receptacle and the color code wires make contact with the base of the bulb. 
SO... my question is this: when wiring the LED's up which only have the standard power/ground red/black wires which ones go together?
The ones with the green/neutral - would the green go to the red or black on the LED?

This is swirling in my head and I can't pull it all together.
In deeper than I should be...

Offline number13

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Re: wiring question - neutral/ground ???
« Reply #1 on: January 30, 2011, 12:10:21 PM »
Typically all green wires are ground, so I imagine that
would connect to the the black leads on your LEDs.
Assuming black is negative.
I would get a multi-tester just to be sure because
you never know what the PO might have done.
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Offline timdhawk

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Re: wiring question - neutral/ground ???
« Reply #2 on: January 30, 2011, 12:28:41 PM »
Typically all green wires are ground, so I imagine that
would connect to the the black leads on your LEDs.
Assuming black is negative.
I would get a multi-tester just to be sure because
you never know what the PO might have done.

No PO, just me - which may be bad enough. Stock harness that I'm just swapping out bulbs for LED's. I guess what throws me is the fact that what I would think of as the "hot wire" - the factory color coded wires, are not in the same place on all five of the lights. The other trip up for me is is that not all "grounds" are black.
I kinda understand the difference between neutral and ground but Im lost here...
In deeper than I should be...

Offline TwoTired

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Re: wiring question - neutral/ground ???
« Reply #3 on: January 30, 2011, 12:45:05 PM »
Filament bulbs don't care about power polarity.  They glow with current in either direction.
LED's only glow with current in one direction.  So, with your engineering change, you will have to observe proper polarity to get them operable.

Honda convention is Green for battery NEG and Black for battery POS  (switched).  But lamps can be activated by inserting a switch the neg terminal path or the POS terminal path.  You bike's wire diagram will tell you which is used for each circuit in question.

I have no clue what polarity your LED manufacturer employed for their product.  They should have indicated with documentation that arrived with the product.

Anyway, don't assume that all the lamps operate with the same polarity inputs.  They will have to assessed on a case by case basis.

Cheers,
Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
72 500, 74 550, 75 550K, 75 550F, 76 550F, 77 550F X2, 78 550K, 77 750F X2, 78 750F, 79CX500, 85 700SC, GL1100

Those that learn from history are doomed to repeat it by those that don't learn from history.

Offline gane

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Re: wiring question - neutral/ground ???
« Reply #4 on: January 30, 2011, 03:42:45 PM »
Perhaps this will help...Your' neutral switch becomes ground when trans is in neutral. in most cases this is a light green or green w/red tracer. & it's origional bulb recieved switched power from a brown wire to its "contact." & recieved power with Key on, wire the red of LED to that brown,% with Key ON, touch LED's black wire to chassis, if no light, reverse led wires. luck G

Offline timdhawk

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Re: wiring question - neutral/ground ???
« Reply #5 on: January 30, 2011, 04:19:21 PM »
I have no clue what polarity your LED manufacturer employed for their product.  

Wouldn't it just be standard red-hot, black-ground polarity?

Honda convention is Green for battery NEG and Black for battery POS  (switched).  

so I have it backwards, green is the traditional "ground" whereas the black is the "neutral?

In my mind and my terminology deficient understanding, the one set of lights are activated when a contact is made, such as the blinkers. The other set is "activated" when the contact is broken such as a the oil or neutral lights. Now, I may have the examples backwards, but in principle...

One complicating factor is that Im re-doing the harnes and don't have a running bike to use as a test platform

In deeper than I should be...

Offline Spanner 1

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Re: wiring question - neutral/ground ???
« Reply #6 on: January 30, 2011, 05:08:48 PM »
Wait-up Tim.... let's get this straight NOW, man.  :o :o.. Black on our bikes is always +12v ( Positive ), never, never ground. Green is always ground and the frame is always ground. The Neutral light gets  +12v on the black wire but cannot light until it gets a ground on the green/red wire when the bike is in N and the n. switch plunger drops and grounds the switch. now N light has +12v and ground = light. All black wires are ' hot ' whenever the ign. switch is turned to ' on '......
l
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Offline timdhawk

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Re: wiring question - neutral/ground ???
« Reply #7 on: January 30, 2011, 05:39:08 PM »
Wait-up Tim.... let's get this straight NOW, man.  :o :o.. Black on our bikes is always +12v ( Positive ), never, never ground. Green is always ground and the frame is always ground. The Neutral light gets  +12v on the black wire but cannot light until it gets a ground on the green/red wire when the bike is in N and the n. switch plunger drops and grounds the switch. now N light has +12v and ground = light. All black wires are ' hot ' whenever the ign. switch is turned to ' on '......
l

F@*K ME!!!  :o :o :o
How the hell did i miss/forget that little tidbit? Big-ass sigh...

okay let me try this: assuming the LED's are normal + red, ground black - the three idiot lights that have the 3 green connections (high beam, R&L blinkers) would be a traditional connection where the green wires would connect up to the black on the LED and the blue, orange, light blue wires would all go to the red on the LED, right?



If the above statement is correct, then on the oil and neutral lights the black wires would actually connect to the red wires on the LED and the blue/red and green/red would go to the LED black wire?

I can't believe I forgot about the black being hot....
In deeper than I should be...

Offline Kanticoy

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Re: wiring question - neutral/ground ???
« Reply #8 on: January 30, 2011, 05:46:46 PM »
You've got it now man.  The black is the constant hot, and the other colors are used for the "send" for the other various sensors i.e. neutral etc.  Been there before man, it is confusing!

Offline Spanner 1

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Re: wiring question - neutral/ground ???
« Reply #9 on: January 30, 2011, 05:50:44 PM »
Nice pic. Tim  ;)... Yes you've got it  :).... Hey, we all have missed/misunderstood plenty of stuff around these old bikes.... no harm done  :)
If your sure it's a carb problem; it's ignition,
If your sure it's an ignition problem; it's carbs....

Offline TwoTired

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Re: wiring question - neutral/ground ???
« Reply #10 on: January 30, 2011, 05:55:38 PM »
I have no clue what polarity your LED manufacturer employed for their product.  

Wouldn't it just be standard red-hot, black-ground polarity?
Standards are wonderful.  That is why there are so many of them.
It's all about context.  A manufacturer can chose pink and purple and assign any polarity requirements they chose, particularly if they got a good deal on odd color wires to improve their profit margin.  It'll still work as electrons are color blind.  But, it is their responsibility to relay what their color choice represents.  Or, to ignore an unwitting buyer once a sale is made.  Personally, I wouldn't buy an LED if I couldn't ascertain with certainty beforehand how it was to be connected.

Honda convention is Green for battery NEG and Black for battery POS  (switched).  

so I have it backwards, green is the traditional "ground" whereas the black is the "neutral?
Neutral applies to house/building AC wiring.   Hondas are generally in the DC world for the most part (certainly the lighting).  But, the labels/color codes are defined by Honda,  not the National electric code.
In reality, Hondas have no actual "ground" as the tires insulate to any earth/ground connection.  What is commonly referred to as ground, is a frame connection.  It only behaves properly as a return in the current loop, if it is attached to the Battery NEG terminal.  Any device on the Honda must ultimately connect to the two battery terminals in order for current to flow through the device.  Closed switches complete a circuit, open switches defeat current flow in a circuit.

In my mind and my terminology deficient understanding, the one set of lights are activated when a contact is made, such as the blinkers. The other set is "activated" when the contact is broken such as a the oil or neutral lights. Now, I may have the examples backwards, but in principle...

Sorry, you need a revision in your "principle understanding", I'm afraid.

Current only flows in a circuit when the loop between battery and device is completed.  LED's also require the polarity to be correct as well.

The oil and neutral light also illuminate when a contact is closed in their respective switches.  In this case, the powered device has the circuit path completed to battery NEG terminal through a switch the connects it to "ground"/chassis/battery Neg terminal (all these three should be at the same potential in our Hondas).

No doubt you've connected a lamp to the battery.  Didn't you have to use both posts?  The frame or green wires in the harness are just an extension of that battery Neg terminal post.

A switch, whether it be in the power source path or the power return path, functions toward the same purpose, break (or allow) the current flow in the loop between battery and power using device.

LED's add the additional requirement that the applied polarity must be observed as well.

Cheers,






Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
72 500, 74 550, 75 550K, 75 550F, 76 550F, 77 550F X2, 78 550K, 77 750F X2, 78 750F, 79CX500, 85 700SC, GL1100

Those that learn from history are doomed to repeat it by those that don't learn from history.