Author Topic: Let's go roadracing...continuing saga  (Read 194019 times)

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Offline bwaller

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Re: Picture Time...track update.
« Reply #175 on: June 29, 2011, 01:32:34 PM »
TG, between the first run & the last I only gained 3%. I got what I wanted in terms of clean acceleration but was a bit surprised at how small the increase. The last engine I built is a mild 592cc street engine that makes 51hp. It seems tough to make big power gains.

Doug, you're right about available exhausts these days. I never pretended this Kerker would be about performance, there just isn't much else that is. All I can comment on regarding camshafts is that Buzz (Dynoman) and a retired succesful middleweight roadracer I met recommended WebCam. They both felt Webs best cam offered better all round power delivery which is partly why I went the other way with the 126-20. It seemed to me to be a better top end cam.

I'm still holding some cards though because I timed this cam straight up for season 1 to allow me some time to learn to go fast again. This winter I'll change timing.

I refuse to be disappointed, it is what it is. I'm 56 and going vintage racing, the thing is very fast. I want the engine as strong as it can be but without the need for a tear down every couple races.

Don't get sick of this thread guys, you have helped drag me out of the orchards and back to the track which is cool.  ;) Any more help with info is much appreciated.




Offline Jon

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Re: Picture Time...track update.
« Reply #176 on: June 29, 2011, 02:11:33 PM »
Very nice result, you have to be happy with that.

Would be interesting to see if much could be picked up by optimizing timing when you are happy with the AF ratio.

Good to find an dyno operator that will let you do your own work, most of them over here won't as their worried about being sued.

Enjoy on the track, when are you out next?


Cheers
jon
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Offline iomtt9

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Re: Picture Time...track update.
« Reply #177 on: June 29, 2011, 02:13:04 PM »
Brent, my Dyno Graph.
Col

Offline bwaller

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Re: Picture Time...track update.
« Reply #178 on: June 29, 2011, 02:53:40 PM »
Hi Jon, I honestly just don't know, but it has peaked my interest.   ;) It is true, the owner knew his machine but admitted he couldn't help me with mine, not a bad partnership I suppose.

Nice one Colin, that's so linear it looks like you drew it with a ruler.  ;D How about an info update on what "lurks inside"?

Offline MRieck

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Re: Picture Time...track update.
« Reply #179 on: June 29, 2011, 03:21:27 PM »
kayaker,

have a look at the torque curves of any road racing  two valve motor and they all look the same, kawis, ducs, suzooks, what have you.

being limited in valve area, 2-valvers deliver good volumetric efficiency at 3/4 of rev range and then taper off towards top end, just not enough valve size + you are also limited in overlap by the included valve angle so you  cant go wild with cam timing as in a four valve design.

this bulge at 7.5K is going to be even bigger with a big bore like brent's got with not much larger than stock  inlet valves.

How much HP's you got from how many C.C.'s in your bike? could be nice to see the torque curve with your retarded valve timing.

TG
I completely agree. Kibblewhite has a 1mm OS valve but bigger than that would be even better. TG is right about the valve angle too. You can order cams from Megacycle with different lobe centerlines which works well with specific applications (landspeed,  roadrace etc.) I'm sure Web also does that as well
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Offline simon#42

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Re: Picture Time...track update.
« Reply #180 on: June 29, 2011, 03:39:07 PM »
it does look a bit weak up the top brent , dont think that will give you much more power but it should hang on for a few more revs which would be handy . anyway you can have plenty of fun with 60 hp  , i had the time of my life on a 49 hp laverda 500 a few years ago !

Offline kayaker43

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Re: Picture Time...track update.
« Reply #181 on: June 30, 2011, 07:02:58 PM »
Dyno's were few and far between in 1980, especially on my budget. I ran one season as a 500 with stock compression and clearanced pistons to fit the class. Then a few seasons with yosh 590 pistons. It was definitely very "cammy" and had that unique sound a radical cam gives. it had a real turbocharged feel and came alive after 8K. I used stock sized valves but a Yosh ported head. Like I said, the biggest improvement was when I switched to short headers and intakes. I believe then the pressure wave tuning of intake/exhaust finally matched what the cam was designed for and the top end hit became more intense and the CR gearbox started to make sense too.

I figured those Yoshi guys knew their stuff but most people didn't run the full compliment of parts to get the full effect. You either saw race engines with street headers or some squid on the street with a stock engine and short race pipes. Get all the pieces right and they don't add up, they multiply!

I started noticing the factory honda DOHC 750's had the same radical cam sound,.. like they stuttered a bit through the revs and then cleaned out and pulled like crazy. They also ran header primaries much shorter than stock and short intakes. The cb550 Yosh race pipes had short primaries as well. Mine was made by Yoshima but appeared to be a copy.

I originally had 4 petal reed valves fitted to the heads (that was not a misprint) the experiment was to retard the cam to have a very late closing intake, and let the reeds determine actual intake closing based on flow reversal. It ran a whole season that way until some epoxy filler I used in the reed bodies started to loosen. Since I had the slotted cam gear I continued to experiment with cam timing after I removed the reeds.

The reeds were amazing, it was an attempt to have pseudo variable valve timing and it worked well. Despite the radical cam and retarded timing it had a meaty midrange and great top end. just felt like a 750!! I did a patent search and found it had been done before on four strokes but for very different reasons, mostly to prevent backfires on big singles and once on a car but looking for fuel efficiency instead of performance. 

At that point I was starting to do well on the track and added the CR gearbox. I reasoned that it would be best to sacrifice midrange and lose the restriction that reeds must surely have on airflow. Once the epoxy came loose I removed the reeds and the bike became very cammy feeling. Incidently, the reeds didn't seem to hurt the top end much just going by feel but they sure did fill out the midrange.

After the 650 came out I compared heads and the stock 650 looked WAY better than the Yosh ported head. I was done racing by then but always wondered what that could have done for me. I remembered Yosh advertising 75 HP was possible? Presumably that was with their 590 kit, TT cam, race pipe and CR31's?? I ran VM29's and liked to think I must be around 65-70hp but who really knows? Four seasons, stock rods and total reliability except for that time I missed a shift at 10K and floated the valves!! bye,bye nice ported head :(

Just for comparison I could outrun any RD400, GPZ550, 500 and 750 interceptor. About tied or slightly slower than the last GPZ750's. I ran C superbike, B superbike and formula 2 and trophied in all of them. The chassis used a bimota style single shock, single front rotor with two calipers and anti dive linkage. Dymags, and a pro squat linkage on the rear brake. Gotta dig out some old pictures...

I keep hoping someone else will try the same cam/pipes/intake length/carb size combo I had to see if it was just a fluke?? Brent, you have the gearbox, I hope you'll shorten your pipes and intake manifolds? Should be able to scrounge up a TT cam too? I still have the pipes if you need measurements.

« Last Edit: June 30, 2011, 07:07:50 PM by kayaker43 »

Offline bwaller

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Re: Picture Time...track update.
« Reply #182 on: June 30, 2011, 07:53:53 PM »
Cool info Doug. I looked for a Yosh cam for several years and only ever saw one for sale on E-bay, which I missed out on by some last second bidding. Those things are hens teeth I'm afraid. I already shortened my intakes, can't go shorter, parts of the carbs touch the breather cover now.

I would like a picture of those pipes though, are they similar to the 400F pipes he made? Those are short primaries, as I recall the collector is nearly under the filter cover. 

Offline scottly

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Re: Picture Time...track update.
« Reply #183 on: June 30, 2011, 08:08:13 PM »
most people didn't run the full compliment of parts to get the full effect. You either saw race engines with street headers or some squid on the street with a stock engine and short race pipes. Get all the pieces right and they don't add up, they multiply

I witnessed the same effect with my friend's XR 500. He upped the compression, added a White Bros cam, reed-valve eliminator, and exhaust, and was disappointed with the improvement. Then he added a Mikuni carb, and suddenly the bike turned into a monster! Everything worked in harmony.
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Offline kayaker43

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Re: Picture Time...track update.
« Reply #184 on: June 30, 2011, 08:13:19 PM »
The pipes do join rather abruptly just past the oil filter. The last pic is a Yosh catalog page and you can see the pipe is very similar








Offline turboguzzi

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Re: Picture Time...track update.
« Reply #185 on: June 30, 2011, 10:58:40 PM »
Wel doug, sounds like your bike was competitive indeed, thing is wihtout dyno curves its hard to know if that kick in the top range you felt was because of huge gains at top or a big hole in the curve just before :) :) And saying how much HP by seat of the pants? I'll leave that to rossi, Ago and company....

As far as 500's go, 65hp seems to be a top figure, look at howel and heard that also from the current top guy with a 500c.c. round here, sure, very peaky. I was up to 61 with VM's before switching to CR's, might or might not have improved. Honda claimed 85 @ crank out of the 650cc CB500R prototype, guess that's about 70-75 at the wheel, but that's with re-angled valves and all the knowledge of big H.

Reed valves sound good, you have to ask yourself why nobody ever used them honda XR and you appart...

Offline kayaker43

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Re: Picture Time...track update.
« Reply #186 on: July 01, 2011, 04:30:13 AM »
Yeah, no doubt a dip in the midrange will always make the top end feel stronger. Believe me I questioned myself about whether it was a real gain but it did show up in top speed. Numbers are just bragging rights anyway,.. results are what matters. Dyno numbers are kind of a fuzzy thing anyway.

Sounds like I'll never be happy until I see that old combination of parts run again with a 650 head and CR carbs.

Unfinished business I guess.....



Offline iomtt9

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Re: Picture Time...track update.
« Reply #187 on: July 01, 2011, 07:15:50 AM »
How many Yoshi cams would you like ????
Col

Offline bwaller

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Re: Picture Time...track update.
« Reply #188 on: July 01, 2011, 09:42:26 AM »
Hah. I remember seeing your parts stockpile.  ;D

Offline iomtt9

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Re: Picture Time...track update.
« Reply #189 on: July 01, 2011, 01:00:21 PM »
Brent, i think somewhere i have the English Yoshi catalogue from around 1978 if i can find it , i will print it out on here.
Col

Offline kayaker43

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Re: Picture Time...track update.
« Reply #190 on: July 01, 2011, 01:13:43 PM »
How many Yoshi cams would you like ????
Col

I'll take a dozen please .... and throw in a side order of 590 pistons.  ;D ;D

I wish it were still that easy!

Offline MRieck

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Re: Picture Time...track update.
« Reply #191 on: July 01, 2011, 02:01:58 PM »
You can get new 61mm 11.5:1 pistons off the shelf. Is that to large for your classes?
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Offline bwaller

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Re: Picture Time...track update.
« Reply #192 on: July 01, 2011, 03:24:28 PM »
I have these from 75? Colin, no need. It's quite a catalog at 120 pages, and all this for a measly $2.  ;D




« Last Edit: July 01, 2011, 03:28:33 PM by bwaller »

Offline Bill/BentON Racing

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Re: Picture Time...track update.
« Reply #193 on: July 01, 2011, 07:52:19 PM »
Brent,in the Batcave lurks a NOS CB650 '79 head and Yosh TT cam? ;) ;D
Trade?Have the pipe on my bike...not for sale or trade..last one Kaz had.
Sounds like bike getting sorted well. 8) Bill
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Offline iomtt9

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Re: Picture Time...track update.
« Reply #194 on: July 02, 2011, 07:32:16 AM »
Yer Brent, i was just goint to put it on, its only a double page. I also have Honda 750, Kawasaki, and Susuki pages.
Any way wheres the best place to come and race in your Country US/Canada . We may be thinking of shipping our bikes out one year to have a bit of crack !!!!
Where do you think, whens the best time???? Is there a class for 500/4s, is there any where that has a race one weekend after the next.???? !!! That should put your brain to the test.
Feel free all the other punters who race or dont to chip in with any info.....
Cheers Col

Offline Tintop

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Re: Picture Time...track update.
« Reply #195 on: July 02, 2011, 07:42:59 AM »
Hi iomtt9,

I'll chip in, the best one in Canada is the VRRA Vintage Festival @ Mosport in mid August every year.  Not sure how that would tie-in with an event in the USA, but would suspect there would be something available.

Cheers,
Brian
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Offline TimV840

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Re: Picture Time...track update.
« Reply #196 on: July 02, 2011, 07:55:51 AM »
Not sure what a punter is, but I'll respond! :)

A great race to attend, and our largest with the VRRA that Brent and I race in ( http://www.vrra.ca/ ) would be The Vintage Festival at Mosport( http://www.mosport.com/ ). It's on August 12, 13,   14th, plus there will be 2 track days(lapping) before the event on the 10-11th organized by another group. Will post info if anyone is interested... Check out my race videos on youtube if you want to see the track, like this one ( http://www.youtube.com/user/Redbeast840#p/u/77/lY_BDg8H5jI ). It's on my FZR400, so it would about the speed you guys would be doing...

Not sure what else is going on before or after that weekend. Our calendar shows an AHRMA race in Michigan 2 weeks after. http://www.ahrma.org/calendar.htm

Hope to see you there!

TimV #840


Yer Brent, i was just goint to put it on, its only a double page. I also have Honda 750, Kawasaki, and Susuki pages.
Any way wheres the best place to come and race in your Country US/Canada . We may be thinking of shipping our bikes out one year to have a bit of crack !!!!
Where do you think, whens the best time???? Is there a class for 500/4s, is there any where that has a race one weekend after the next.???? !!! That should put your brain to the test.
Feel free all the other punters who race or dont to chip in with any info.....
Cheers Col
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Offline bwaller

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Re: Picture Time...track update.
« Reply #197 on: July 02, 2011, 08:12:10 AM »
Yes the VRRA has a race at Mosport in Canada Aug 12-14.  Two weeks later (Aug 26-28) AHRMA has a round in Michigan, about a 7hr drive west. If you're really ambitious AHRMA goes again across the country @ Miller in Utah the 2nd-3rd of September I believe around the same time as the salt action at Bonneville? I've never been but it's supposedly a great track and has a WSB round. The Barber vintage festival is in October in Alabama and is another super event.

Each association will have a spot for you, just not specifically for 500 Hondas. P2 Vintage in VRRA, and Formula 500 with AHRMA.

Plan on it Colin, it would be great to have you.

EDIT; Ooops I see Tim has responded, that would be the right class for a GP style CB500 four Tim?.



« Last Edit: July 02, 2011, 08:18:17 AM by bwaller »

Offline TimV840

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Re: Picture Time...track update.
« Reply #198 on: July 02, 2011, 08:56:45 AM »
I haven't a clue Brent....Different names in different clubs...it's all very confusing! :)  I would be emailing someone down there(with AHRMA) to find out.

Each association will have a spot for you, just not specifically for 500 Hondas. P2 Vintage in VRRA, and Formula 500 with AHRMA.

Plan on it Colin, it would be great to have you.

EDIT; Ooops I see Tim has responded, that would be the right class for a GP style CB500 four Tim?.




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Offline bwaller

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Re: Picture Time...track update.
« Reply #199 on: July 02, 2011, 07:00:26 PM »
Just when you thought it was safe........it's me again. Looking more closely (with glasses on this time) at my A/F graph I wondered whether or not one mainjet size would do the trick. So I decided this aft. I'd better try going larger. Popped in 125's and it was really strong with no adverse effect on the needle. The plugs still looked lean so I tried 127.5's and it just felt a bit lazy. In bright sunlight or under a mag glass, even to the insulator base I saw no colour and it pissed me off. I decided to cut one open to be sure.








For the life of me I could not see this before. It's safe to say this is plenty rich now but I think I'll go back down to the 125's which to me felt like better throttle response. I don't know what one jet change would do for the graph which went as lean as 16/1.





Now I really wish I had had the time to make some ignition advance trials while at the dyno. I dug out an old Gordon Jennings article and it makes sense NOW that the first tuning step should be getting the spark advance right. On one section of each the plugs electrode tip there is a touch of erosion which may be too much advance. I'm at 30 degrees now but I may try to reduce that to 28. There is no sign of spark knock so it has to be really close but I'll retard it 2 degrees. I'm in left field here, does anyone run this little advance or  even less?

It is hard to see in the pic but check the cut plug on the right & above for the erosion I mention. The ground strap edges are fine, just the center electrode. The spots on the electrode of all four plugs are under the edge of the ground strap. Could it be a factor of too much gap? These are D9's set @ 0.040"




« Last Edit: July 02, 2011, 07:04:12 PM by bwaller »