Author Topic: all LED lighting with flasher relay not working.  (Read 3962 times)

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Offline Loki

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all LED lighting with flasher relay not working.
« on: February 20, 2011, 09:12:32 AM »
ok, so a while back i asked what i would need to install led lighting on my bike and a few guys told me to use a flasher relay. i installed one and nothing works. not one light comes on, and i havent a clue where to begin. any suggestions?

http://cgi.ebay.ca/Electronic-LED-Flasher-Relay-Fix-Turn-Signal-3-Pin-12V-/270703020082?pt=Motorcycles_Parts_Accessories&hash=item3f07284832

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Offline mystic_1

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Re: all LED lighting with flasher relay not working.
« Reply #1 on: February 20, 2011, 09:40:38 AM »
My first suggestion would be to verify the pinouts on the flasher unit, sometimes the arrangement is different.

Based on the pics on that auction, terminal 49 connects to the voltage source (black on these old Hondas), terminal 31 goes to ground (green), and terminal 49D goes to your lights (to switch, color varies, check your wiring diagram).

mystic_1

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Offline Loki

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Re: all LED lighting with flasher relay not working.
« Reply #2 on: February 20, 2011, 09:49:50 AM »
 ya i made sure the pins were in the right order. i have a feeling that i might have also blown up the flasher. what would be the best way to check to see if its still in working order? and would there be any other part that would give me problems with this lighting arrangement?

 i have led turn signals, back lighting for the tach and speedo, stop light, licence plate light, and lighting cluster. with a h4 head light.
I don't have pet peeves, i have major psychotic f@cking hatred. - George Carlin

1977 Kawasaki kz 400
1999 Suzuki gsxr 600
1975 Honda cb 750f
1977 Honda cb 550k



Offline DukieDukenDuke

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Re: all LED lighting with flasher relay not working.
« Reply #3 on: February 20, 2011, 09:53:21 AM »
replace the LED's in the rear signals with incandescent bulbs to see if it will flash.
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Offline Loki

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Re: all LED lighting with flasher relay not working.
« Reply #4 on: February 20, 2011, 10:00:04 AM »
ill give it a shot. but its not just the turn signals that are not working. its all the leds, and head light.
I don't have pet peeves, i have major psychotic f@cking hatred. - George Carlin

1977 Kawasaki kz 400
1999 Suzuki gsxr 600
1975 Honda cb 750f
1977 Honda cb 550k



Offline mystic_1

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Re: all LED lighting with flasher relay not working.
« Reply #5 on: February 20, 2011, 10:03:54 AM »
OK, based on that info, it sounds to me like the flasher isn't the problem, but something further up the line.

There's no direct relationship between the flasher and the headlight, for example.

Check your fuses, and then get out your multimeter and see where you have power and where you don't, in the harness.

mystic_1
"When you are wrestling for possession of a sword, the man with the handle always wins. "  - Neal Stephenson, Snow Crash

My build thread:  http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=68952.0




Offline Loki

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Re: all LED lighting with flasher relay not working.
« Reply #6 on: February 20, 2011, 10:06:50 AM »
also doesnt the flasher unit only deal with the turn signals? all the other leds in the bike are straight off the line, no resistor or anything, is that an issue?
I don't have pet peeves, i have major psychotic f@cking hatred. - George Carlin

1977 Kawasaki kz 400
1999 Suzuki gsxr 600
1975 Honda cb 750f
1977 Honda cb 550k



Offline mystic_1

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Re: all LED lighting with flasher relay not working.
« Reply #7 on: February 20, 2011, 10:26:15 AM »
Hmm, let's take a step back.

It sounds like you've replaced all the bulbs with LED's at the same time, and are just now trying to get it all working.  Is this right?

Tell us more about what you've done.  What LED's did you use, how did you install them, etc.

If you used LED replacement bulbs, they're already set up with current limiting resistors.  If you bought raw LED's, you need resistors.

Best bet for a full conversion like this is to work on one system at a time.  Forget about the turn signals for the moment, the fact that your headlight doesn't work indicates a bigger issue. 

I'd start by disconnecting the turn signal flasher, the instrument backlighting, and the tail light.  Check your fuses.  Use a meter to determine if you have power in the harness.  Then figure out why your headlight doesn't work.  Once you get that far, add the other circuits back in one at a time, getting each working before you move on to the next one.

mystic_1
"When you are wrestling for possession of a sword, the man with the handle always wins. "  - Neal Stephenson, Snow Crash

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Offline Loki

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Re: all LED lighting with flasher relay not working.
« Reply #8 on: February 20, 2011, 10:38:48 AM »
iv been building this bike from the ground up for the past year or so. it has not ran for that time at all, so iv just been adding what lighting i wanted. one of the 7 amp fuses has popped a few times, im assuming that does the head light, because i dont have the stop light connected yet.
I don't have pet peeves, i have major psychotic f@cking hatred. - George Carlin

1977 Kawasaki kz 400
1999 Suzuki gsxr 600
1975 Honda cb 750f
1977 Honda cb 550k



Offline Loki

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Re: all LED lighting with flasher relay not working.
« Reply #9 on: February 20, 2011, 10:43:38 AM »
heres a pic of the leds on the cluster.
I don't have pet peeves, i have major psychotic f@cking hatred. - George Carlin

1977 Kawasaki kz 400
1999 Suzuki gsxr 600
1975 Honda cb 750f
1977 Honda cb 550k



Offline mystic_1

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Re: all LED lighting with flasher relay not working.
« Reply #10 on: February 20, 2011, 10:44:41 AM »
one of the 7 amp fuses has popped a few times, im assuming that does the head light, because i dont have the stop light connected yet.

Let's start with this.

So, no stop light, no turn signals, only the headlight connected, it blows fuses?

You have a short somewhere.  Find that first.

Does the motor run yet?  In other words, has the rest of the electrical system been tested?

mystic_1
"When you are wrestling for possession of a sword, the man with the handle always wins. "  - Neal Stephenson, Snow Crash

My build thread:  http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=68952.0




Offline mystic_1

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Re: all LED lighting with flasher relay not working.
« Reply #11 on: February 20, 2011, 10:51:37 AM »
heres a pic of the leds on the cluster.


OK, so those look like LED panel indicator lights, like you'd get at Radio Shack or at an auto parts store.  You may need current-limiting resistors with those to keep from burning them out.

Check the packaging for specs like this:

"Forward Voltage"
"Forward Current (mA)"

If you see stuff like that on the package, you have bare LED's and need resistors.  Use an LED calculator like THIS for single LED's, or THIS for arrays, to figure out what resistor you need.

If you do not see specs like the above on the package, and the package says "for 12V automotive applications" or anything similar, then you're good to go and don't need resistors.  The same is true with the LED replacement bulbs that mount in OEM sockets, they're already set up properly.





BUT as I said earlier, figure out why you're blowing fuses first.  That's never normal.  Then add each circuit one-at-a-time, testing each as you install it.

That way if a problem crops up, you'll know where the problem is.

mystic_1
"When you are wrestling for possession of a sword, the man with the handle always wins. "  - Neal Stephenson, Snow Crash

My build thread:  http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=68952.0




Offline Loki

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Re: all LED lighting with flasher relay not working.
« Reply #12 on: February 20, 2011, 11:00:08 AM »
the bike is running.....not very well thought, thats a whole other thing. but it is running. last nigh when i was testing out the lighting the fuse didnt blow. ill go back today and disconnect all the leds on the bike and work from there. those leds on the cluster where from a electronic store down town. they dont come in any package and are sold by piece. i had asked if they where ok to install straight in and they said "yes", but who knows if they actually know. the back lights for the speedo and tach are ones off of ebay...similar to this on.

http://cgi.ebay.ca/2x-Unversal-24-White-LED-car-flexible-strip-light-12V-/170603414365?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item27b8c1835d
I don't have pet peeves, i have major psychotic f@cking hatred. - George Carlin

1977 Kawasaki kz 400
1999 Suzuki gsxr 600
1975 Honda cb 750f
1977 Honda cb 550k



Offline Gaither

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Re: all LED lighting with flasher relay not working.
« Reply #13 on: February 20, 2011, 02:17:33 PM »
Lots of good advice already. You obviously have other problems to address first.

FWIW

If you have LED bulbs in your turn sigs, use an Electronic Flasher (auto parts store approx $10) and plug it in properly. Then, you can FORGET the Resistors - they will work but will add to your elec load - which these ol' bikes don't like. Why use Resistors when an Electronic Flasher will do the job perfectly?

Note, most so-called "Amber" LED's are Yellow - not Amber and most are not nearly as bright as incandescent bulbs and therefore are not nearly as visible. Unless the LED's have bulbs around the sides of the bulbs, they may not be visible at an angle from the sides of your bike (in either "Amber" or Red) which, IMHO, is sacrificing visibility and safey. LED's are very directional.

You can use LED's in your tail/brake light/s WITHOUT a Resistor. I'm running 3 in tail/brake lights now (with LED "bulbs" at the ends and the sides).

If your fuse block is original, have you cleaned the fuse clips? They may look pretty good but a bit dull. This condition can burn out fuses - particluarly the 15 amp main. The clips need to be clean and shiny. A .22 cal bore brush will work great. Fuses burned because of corrosion will burn at the end within the metal cap - and look perfectly good (fools you).
Ask me how I know. Check the fuse/s with an ohm meter for this condition.

Make sure your battery is fully charged. While messing with the lights, turn the "stop" switch off to protect your points.

Good luck with your wiring problems.

I HATE WIRING!
Gaither ('77 CB550F)



Offline mystic_1

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Re: all LED lighting with flasher relay not working.
« Reply #14 on: February 20, 2011, 03:09:55 PM »
I, too, dislike "load balancing resistors" which are just big honking resistors that put extra load on your system to make standard flashers work properly.

Don't use those.

What you _might_ need are current-limiting resistors, which serve a different purpose.  These prevent the LED from drawing too much current and burning out.  All LED's need them.  Some products that you can buy for automotive applications already have them built in.  The lighting strips linked above, for example, state they are for 12V automotive applications and like I said earlier this is a good indication they already have current-limiting resistors built in.

mystic_1

"When you are wrestling for possession of a sword, the man with the handle always wins. "  - Neal Stephenson, Snow Crash

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Offline Gaither

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Re: all LED lighting with flasher relay not working.
« Reply #15 on: February 20, 2011, 08:19:56 PM »
Thanks - 'didn't know about "current limiting resistors". 

The elec load on the 3 tail/brake red LED's bulbs I'm running are measured in milliamps - less total load than just one 1157 incandescent. They're "Plug and play" replacements (and are automotive).

**I am always highly suspicious of a vendor who recommends Load Resistors to make LED's in turn sigs flash properly. They are well aware that an electronic flasher will do the job cheaper/better/less load. They just want to sell us something we don't need and are better off without! Easy to see whose side they are on.

The only reason I wanted LED bulbs is for a lighter elec load. IMHO, 1156 and 1157 incandescents do a great job for visability - except for their higher elec load.

In my limited experience, most LED replacement bulbs are not as bright as incandescents unless you are very careful what you buy. I run a daylight, side-by-side brightness test on all LED's. I have returned two sets of (so called) "Amber" LED bulbs because they were yellow (not amber) and not nearly as bright as incandescents.

**If you know of true Amber LED's that are as bright or brighter than orig incandescents, I would like to have 'em in the front running/turn sig's and rear turn sig's. I just haven't yet found 'em. One vendor finally said technology didn't exist to mfg LED's in true Amber and as bright as incandescets [?].

To each his own.
Gaither ('77 CB550F)



Offline Loki

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Re: all LED lighting with flasher relay not working.
« Reply #16 on: February 21, 2011, 09:01:18 PM »
damn all this input has not only been great , but also very helpful. i have the head light up and running no problem. just a minor wiring mishap, but not big deal. i have the turn signals turning on but they wont flash, which leads me to believe that the flasher unit is broken to some degree. i recall when i bought it and installed it for the first time, it was making a clicking sound as to be turning the signal on and off...it does not do that any more. so im assuming that threw some minor miswiring i burn it out. which leaves just the LEDs in the tach/speedo and panel display? im willing to switch to a different panel display if you guys know of any nice ones that will go nicely with my set up? as for the LEDs in the tach/speedo....i might just do a resistor for those. any idea on what kind i should go for?

pic of my bike so far, & you saw the terrible set up i have for the panel display.... ;D
I don't have pet peeves, i have major psychotic f@cking hatred. - George Carlin

1977 Kawasaki kz 400
1999 Suzuki gsxr 600
1975 Honda cb 750f
1977 Honda cb 550k



Offline Loki

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Re: all LED lighting with flasher relay not working.
« Reply #17 on: February 21, 2011, 09:09:06 PM »
oh and the turn signals im using do suck....i might have to reconsider my choice....these are the ones im putting on my bike. looks great with my setup but do not get bright enough, and the front ones need on of those 2-1 wire connectors/ resistor to have it wired to a three wire setup for the runnig/signal lights in the front....the resistor does not do a good job at making for the full voltage is getting to the light.

http://cgi.ebay.ca/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=180415467751&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT
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1977 Kawasaki kz 400
1999 Suzuki gsxr 600
1975 Honda cb 750f
1977 Honda cb 550k



Offline mystic_1

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Re: all LED lighting with flasher relay not working.
« Reply #18 on: February 22, 2011, 06:58:51 PM »
Glad to hear you're making progress!



as for the LEDs in the tach/speedo....i might just do a resistor for those. any idea on what kind i should go for?



To figure out current-limiting resistors for bare LED's, check the following links I posted earlier:

OK, so those look like LED panel indicator lights, like you'd get at Radio Shack or at an auto parts store.  You may need current-limiting resistors with those to keep from burning them out.

Check the packaging for specs like this:

"Forward Voltage"
"Forward Current (mA)"

If you see stuff like that on the package, you have bare LED's and need resistors.  Use an LED calculator like THIS for single LED's, or THIS for arrays, to figure out what resistor you need.


The turn signals you posted will already have current-limiting resistors, no worries there.  Perhaps in order to get things working, you might wire them up as turn-signals-only. 


As far as the flasher, I'd try it with some "known-good" incandescent bulbs first, to verify if it is indeed burned out.  Connect the bulb(s) to your flasher's 49D terminal, then hook + and - to the battery and see if it blinks.


Hmm, and in case you haven't heard this before, keep in mind that LED's are "polarized" that is to say they have a + side and a - side, and won't work if you hook them up backwards, unlike a bulb.

This will cause you issues with the turn signal indicator, since Honda's design feeds current one way through the bulb when the left side is blinking, and the other way for the right side.  Common solutions are to use two LED's or to use a flash indicator adapter such as this one:


click me


mystic_1
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My build thread:  http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=68952.0




Offline Loki

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Re: all LED lighting with flasher relay not working.
« Reply #19 on: February 22, 2011, 08:04:48 PM »
i am using the splitter, but notice that its dimmer then the ones in the rear. im assuming it has something to do with the resistor in it? also do you guys know of a panel display?
I don't have pet peeves, i have major psychotic f@cking hatred. - George Carlin

1977 Kawasaki kz 400
1999 Suzuki gsxr 600
1975 Honda cb 750f
1977 Honda cb 550k



Offline Loki

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Re: all LED lighting with flasher relay not working.
« Reply #20 on: February 22, 2011, 08:40:54 PM »
so i used that array calc and came up with a 15 ohm resistor. it puts it in a series parallel format, i just did the inverse of the answers and came up with 15. it had 8 resistors in parallel at 120 ohms each. so the inverse to get a single in series is 15 ohms. what do you guys think? whats to loose?...ill go to the electronic store and buy a brown yellow black gold/silver resisto, hook em up and see if the tach/speedo lights come on. heres to hoping!  :-\ 
I don't have pet peeves, i have major psychotic f@cking hatred. - George Carlin

1977 Kawasaki kz 400
1999 Suzuki gsxr 600
1975 Honda cb 750f
1977 Honda cb 550k



Offline Brian77cb750

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Re: all LED lighting with flasher relay not working.
« Reply #21 on: February 22, 2011, 09:04:55 PM »
I have similar turn signals I installed, and I bought the Electronic flasher from the local auto parts store, and it didn't work.
They don't have enough load to flash, I bought one from here http://www.superbrightleds.com/cgi-bin/store/index.cgi?action=DispPage&Page2Disp=%2Fspecs%2FLFS-1-PIN.html

It worked well.



Offline Brian77cb750

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Re: all LED lighting with flasher relay not working.
« Reply #22 on: February 22, 2011, 09:10:18 PM »
I also bought these http://www.superbrightleds.com/cgi-bin/store/index.cgi?action=DispPage&category=PCB&Page2Disp=%2Fspecs%2Fbolt_specs.htm for indicator lights, they are for 12volt with resistors built in. they seem to work good. I burnt one out due to my regulator being bad on the bike it was sending 18volts to them at 3K RPM :o



Offline mystic_1

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Re: all LED lighting with flasher relay not working.
« Reply #23 on: February 22, 2011, 09:53:37 PM »
so i used that array calc and came up with a 15 ohm resistor. it puts it in a series parallel format, i just did the inverse of the answers and came up with 15. it had 8 resistors in parallel at 120 ohms each. so the inverse to get a single in series is 15 ohms. what do you guys think? whats to loose?...ill go to the electronic store and buy a brown yellow black gold/silver resisto, hook em up and see if the tach/speedo lights come on. heres to hoping!  :-\ 



Actually if you plug in bare LED's without any current-limiting resistor, they burn out quite quickly.  Like less than a second quick.

I'm not following your math though, did the packaging for your LED's include the forward voltage and current specs?

If you're running these numbers for the indicators, each indicator is a separate circuit so just use the single-LED calculator for each LED individually.

http://led.linear1.org/1led.wiz

Let's say for example that you have an LED that specs out 2V forward current and 30mA forward voltage.  Your source voltage is 12v.  The calculator yields a 390 ohm resistor.  Wire that in series with the LED.  A single resistor is all that's needed unless you need to combine them to get the desired voltage.  Wire the resistors in series (combines their resistance) if you need more than one.

mystic_1
"When you are wrestling for possession of a sword, the man with the handle always wins. "  - Neal Stephenson, Snow Crash

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Offline DukieDukenDuke

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Re: all LED lighting with flasher relay not working.
« Reply #24 on: February 22, 2011, 11:16:34 PM »
Run incandescents in the back, they will only use power when you turn the blinkers on and present enough of a load so the flasher unit flashes. I had to do this when I switched to LED's even though I bought a flasher supposed to be specially made for LED's.

Well, the flashers wouldn't work unless I had incandescent bulbs hooked up somewhere and I knew the rear bulbs only turn on when I use the blinker so I would still have the energy savings up front.
"Well, Mr. Carpetbagger. We got somethin' in this territory called the Missouri boat ride."   Josey Wales

"It's Baltimore, gentlemen. The gods will not save you." Ervin Burrell

CB750 K3 crat | (2) 1986 VFR750F

 

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