Author Topic: Bike died. Might be the end of it.  (Read 24908 times)

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Offline Stev-o

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Re: Bike died. Might be the end of it.
« Reply #25 on: April 02, 2011, 08:57:28 PM »
A rectangular recycle bin would be perfect, that motor probably weighs over 100 lbs.
« Last Edit: April 02, 2011, 09:00:52 PM by Stev-o »
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Offline cobra2411

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Re: Bike died. Might be the end of it.
« Reply #26 on: April 02, 2011, 08:59:38 PM »
The engine weighs about 175-180lbs so it's definitely a 2 man job.

You can look at the following thread for an engine stand idea: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=58210.0

You can sometimes find engine stands cheap on CL. This type of setup would be the best but I'm sure there are other low tech ways to do this.

I too have seen engines for around $200 so keep your eyes open. Get yours open and see what you need.

Good luck.

Offline scottly

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Re: Bike died. Might be the end of it.
« Reply #27 on: April 02, 2011, 09:46:57 PM »
Whoa.. is that a section of piston ring? If it is... the only way a part like that could make it past the piston is if parts of that piston are gone too.. Either way, it's gonna be some work. Sorry to see that A-J. Good luck.
If you broke a piston bad enough for a piece of a piston ring that big to make its way to the sump, I would expect to see more pieces of piston, also. Did the bike suddenly belch great volumes of oil smoke? It might be that the piece of ring, as well as the sealant found in the sump were left over from the last "rebuild", and the new loss of oil pressure was due to a plugged oil screen??? 
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Offline Anti-Johnny

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Re: Bike died. Might be the end of it.
« Reply #28 on: April 02, 2011, 09:56:54 PM »
Whoa.. is that a section of piston ring? If it is... the only way a part like that could make it past the piston is if parts of that piston are gone too.. Either way, it's gonna be some work. Sorry to see that A-J. Good luck.
If you broke a piston bad enough for a piece of a piston ring that big to make its way to the sump, I would expect to see more pieces of piston, also. Did the bike suddenly belch great volumes of oil smoke? It might be that the piece of ring, as well as the sealant found in the sump were left over from the last "rebuild", and the new loss of oil pressure was due to a plugged oil screen???

I really couldnt say where exactly it came from. I know it started feeling "not right" then I lost pressure. No smoking though. The bike didnt seize. Just starting making the wrong kind of noise, no clanking or clacking or anything, just didnt sound right. I cant really say what kind, just that it was like metal on metal. No smoke. And it did kick over after cooling a bit. But I only had it on for a second or two. The bike still shifts through gears alright with it not running. I cant really turn the back wheel with it in 5th anymore. It will move but it is stiff, and will move for a bit then its stiff again. It might be nice if I knew the right adjectives to use here...

I dont understand how the piston ring got through the screen. I should have had a picture of what the screen looked like. Stalactites comes to mind. I thought maybe an oil passageway might be blocked and that caused it to over heat. and blammo. But again, I know how to change my oil, clutch cable, rebuild my forks, a little wiring, various miscellany. This has been the extent of my first hand motorcycle schooling.

Is there a test I can do to find out if this is actually a piston ring portion or the other part youre mentioning? I threw it away, so I couldnt measure the curve of it. The guys at the co op were fairly certain when they saw it that it was piston ring.
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Offline scottly

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Re: Bike died. Might be the end of it.
« Reply #29 on: April 02, 2011, 10:09:43 PM »
Don't yank the motor and split the cases just yet. A compression test will tell right away if you cratered a piston. Something can be rigged to ensure an oil supply to the galley via the port where your gauge is screwed in. Your motor may be wounded, not dead.
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Offline wrenchmuch

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Re: Bike died. Might be the end of it.
« Reply #30 on: April 03, 2011, 06:41:18 AM »
Whats in the filter housing ? If there is something in there? Is it metal or more gunk .
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Offline cookindaddy

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Re: Bike died. Might be the end of it.
« Reply #31 on: April 03, 2011, 07:11:54 AM »
That does look like a piece of piston ring. Ouch. Wouldn't explain the drop in oil pressure though.

What about doing a compression test next?

How did you get such a large clickable picture in your post? Normally the forum restricts the picture size we can add.
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Offline fmctm1sw

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Re: Bike died. Might be the end of it.
« Reply #32 on: April 03, 2011, 07:32:03 AM »
Think I could get it in a large tupperware bin and transport it to my apartment? How much does this thing weigh? Ive got a medical condition(another money pit) so I am weaker than most, will I be able to get all the bolts out that hold this thing together? I have a respectable craftsman set that has general sockets and wrenches. Will I need specialty tools to break any of it down?

I thing those rubbermade bins aren't going to be strong enough to carry a lot of parts in.  I did this with my engines (all smaller than 750) and I worry about the bottom faling out every time I pick them up.  Buy more than one if you  use them to distribute the weight.  You do have some options as mentioned.  Find another usable motor and bolt in, etc.  I've sat my motors on those little 4 wheeled furniture movers at HF.  About $10/ea. You can pull that motor out with a couple of those dollys and a long 4x4 or 4x6.  My 550 thread has a picture of my setup and I stole it from another thread here so I know there at least one more post on it.  There's really no telling what going to happen with vehicles this old.  Probably no fault of anyones...  That's why they don't warranty autos more than a few years old...  I went to the flea market and picked out metric sockets up to 19mm I think.
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Offline Spanner 1

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Re: Bike died. Might be the end of it.
« Reply #33 on: April 03, 2011, 09:09:22 AM »
I'm dyin' to know if you lost compression on 1 cyl.......... just stick yer thumb/finger into each plughole and see if no/reduced compression compared to the others when you crank it over  :) ;)
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Re: Bike died. Might be the end of it.
« Reply #34 on: April 03, 2011, 09:10:26 AM »
Whoa.. is that a section of piston ring? If it is... the only way a part like that could make it past the piston is if parts of that piston are gone too.. Either way, it's gonna be some work. Sorry to see that A-J. Good luck.
If you broke a piston bad enough for a piece of a piston ring that big to make its way to the sump, I would expect to see more pieces of piston, also. Did the bike suddenly belch great volumes of oil smoke? It might be that the piece of ring, as well as the sealant found in the sump were left over from the last "rebuild", and the new loss of oil pressure was due to a plugged oil screen???

I really couldnt say where exactly it came from. I know it started feeling "not right" then I lost pressure. No smoking though. The bike didnt seize. Just starting making the wrong kind of noise, no clanking or clacking or anything, just didnt sound right. I cant really say what kind, just that it was like metal on metal. No smoke. And it did kick over after cooling a bit. But I only had it on for a second or two. The bike still shifts through gears alright with it not running. I cant really turn the back wheel with it in 5th anymore. It will move but it is stiff, and will move for a bit then its stiff again. It might be nice if I knew the right adjectives to use here...

I dont understand how the piston ring got through the screen. I should have had a picture of what the screen looked like. Stalactites comes to mind. I thought maybe an oil passageway might be blocked and that caused it to over heat. and blammo. But again, I know how to change my oil, clutch cable, rebuild my forks, a little wiring, various miscellany. This has been the extent of my first hand motorcycle schooling.

Is there a test I can do to find out if this is actually a piston ring portion or the other part youre mentioning? I threw it away, so I couldnt measure the curve of it. The guys at the co op were fairly certain when they saw it that it was piston ring.

Piston ring and bearing retainers look very similar, except bearing retainers are half-round parts where rings are fully round (until broken...).

It appears that someone has assembled the engine in the past with 'way too much gasket sealant, hence the collection on your screen and the globs in the pan. The metal chunk you have there has been properly captured in the pan, so it didn't go through the engine, and the screen on the bottom of the oil pump has been collecting thegoo and preventing that chunk from futher circulating, all part of the genius of the design in this dry-sump engine.

This chunk is the clue to what happened, but it is hard to tell what that was until the cases are opened for a look-see. I was about to ask if it had a ring mark on the end, but if you don't have it now, I can't ask. Retainers have no marks: piston rings have a tiny engraving mark on the squared end (which is the top-side of the ring when assembling).

If it was a piston ring from the current top end, the engine would not have run at all from such a catastrophic failure, as it would be from the upper rings and the whole side of the piston would have to be gone to allow it to fall into the case. My estimation at this point is that this event happened before you got the bike, and this is debris left over from a top-end rebuild, with too much sealant applied. The symptoms you describe sound more like a seized camshaft than anything else I can think of, which could come from plugged oil jets in the head: these could have been plugged from too much sealant applied to the base gasket under the cylinders, which then would have moved up the 2 oil passages to the head and slowed down the oil flow to the top end. It would take a little while then to tear up the cam and cam bearings, which seems to be the chronology.

All these musings won't get you back on the road, however.

In your situation, looking around for a used engine would be the least expensive path to running again, followed by parting out the engine you have for cost recovery. On eBay or CL, you can make $35-$50 for each engine cover, and if the cases are good, someone on the forum might like to buy them to replace some that were crashed with a thrown chain (I can think of several candidates!). The sprocket cover is also a hot item on eBay, I've noticed (that's the one with 2 screws that covers the sprocket at the rear, chain side).

Rebuilding: the costs for taking it apart begin with the gasket kit, about $100. But...I suspect that taking the engine out, followed by removing the cam cover and inspecting the cam and bearings, would be all the further you would have to tear down. In that case, all you would need would be a new cam cover gasket instead, plus a used cam and cam bearings, possibly a rocker or two. I know this forum can come up with those kinds of pieces on the cheap, as I was in a similar situation 2 years ago and when I asked, I ended up with all the parts for nothing but the postage (I was unemployed at the time). This is a great community, all of whom would like to see your smiling face collecting bugs again as soon as possible. So, since the bike is a boat anchor at the moment, maybe taking the engine out for a peek under that cam cover is the wisest first step?
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Offline Stev-o

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Re: Bike died. Might be the end of it.
« Reply #36 on: April 03, 2011, 10:44:12 AM »
The ad says local pickup only. Tango works for FedEx in that area, I'll ask him for a favor if you buy it.

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Offline Old Scrambler

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Re: Bike died. Might be the end of it.
« Reply #37 on: April 03, 2011, 11:35:59 AM »
I have a complete K5 motor in bits with broken cam and broken cases..........all else looked good. So if you need parts let me know............a few bucks for shipping and handling.
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Offline Anti-Johnny

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Re: Bike died. Might be the end of it.
« Reply #38 on: April 03, 2011, 12:59:11 PM »
Thanks for the info HM. I've forwarded it to the guys in Austin.


I am less depressed about it today. Still disappointed. Throats a bit sore from chainsmoking and sobbing into my pillow for 8 hours...  :'( jk men dont cry.

Kind of regretting not getting something newer. I have to wait a few days to see about rallying the troops. I cant do a compression test or anything until I work out a time to get back to Austin. Ill have to work around my schedule, their schedule, and my old ladies schedule so that I can use her car.

They are politely discouraging me from doing a swap. Because I wont know if that engine has been messed around in either. Theyre also politely suggesting that I either get a newer bike and have this as a second, or offload this one and get something newer. Unfortunately I dont have any credit so payments are out. And as said before, unless some unknown relative dies and leaves me some money soon, no tengo dinero.

I dont want to sell my bike outright. Thats too much of a loss. If I do get rid of it, it will be after an engine swap.

This is only a couple days later, so I havent made any decisions. Just bleeding some thoughts out here.

I might have a line on an engine. Might know in a few days. But I am worried that it will be in bad shape and I wont know until I bolt it up and nothing happens. I have to be able to recoup some expenses on the engine I have now.

Its all quite a bit daunting. I dont understand a lot about how the engine works. If it was a piston ring, I guess the engine would have seized, am I understanding that right? I was told based on the ring and shavings in the pan that I would need to do a complete rebuild, bottom end too. If I understand HM right then that might not be necessary?

I just hope the weather is nice for a while. I dont want it to start rusting up. If I dont get this figured out in the next few weeks, finals comes up and Ill be locked into that, then right after I leave to Vienna for school.
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Re: Bike died. Might be the end of it.
« Reply #39 on: April 03, 2011, 03:10:50 PM »
You can always test the compression on a spare engine by hooking up the starter to a car battery (by hand) and using a compression gage. Checker/Oreilly will loan you a gage, for a precise check. But generally, if the engine has a kickstarter, you can push it through each compression stroke by hand and feel if there are 4 approximately equal strokes: this is commonly done as a quick check on used bikes, too. If one cylinder is bad, it will be apparent. If all 4 feel about equal, the engine will run.

IMHO, you will fare better with an earlier engine, like the K1-K6 type. These have virtually no common problems. The later ones (F0-3, K7/8 engines, post-1975) can sometimes have a surprise in the form of a worn set of 1-2 gear dogs (and "L" shift fork, from the stresses involved), which can cause the tranny to jump out of 2nd gear under power. Until the bike is ridden or the cases opened, this particular defect is not "findable", in my experience. Even then, simply shifting from 1st to 3rd, avoiding use of 2nd, has kept many of those bikes on the road for years.

Beyond these foibles, buying a used engine is largely a matter of checking compression for equal values (within 10-15%) across all cylinders. Typically, the longer these engines sit, the lower their compression becomes until they are run for 1000 miles or so. Then the compression usually returns unless there was significant rust in a bore, which will turn up as lower compression in that cylinder until at least new rings are installed. But that said, the engine will STILL run OK for non-racing or long-distance touring at Interstate speeds, as you will often see across the forums. Here in the Denver area I see many old 750s putting around in commuter service, obviously running on 3 cylinders, with quite contented riders. (Of course, it always makes me want to kidnap the poor bike to my backyard for a season to improve it...)
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Offline Hush

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Re: Bike died. Might be the end of it.
« Reply #40 on: April 03, 2011, 03:14:06 PM »
Honda Man said it, we just love to see these bikes back on the road.
Best of luck with this repair AJ being occasionally depressed is all part of owning a 30+ year old motorbike. :)
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Offline scottly

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Re: Bike died. Might be the end of it.
« Reply #41 on: April 03, 2011, 07:20:15 PM »
I wouldn't give up on your motor yet...
Don't fix it if it ain't broke!
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Offline thehammer

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Re: Bike died. Might be the end of it.
« Reply #42 on: April 03, 2011, 08:03:19 PM »
yeah, they're heavy. It's a good idea to have 2 burly men to transport them up or down stairs. dont hurt yourself. maybe if you take the head and cylinder block off you'll be able to carry it upstairs. i know a guy who claims he muscled his 750 motor up 3 flights . . . it's a judgement call. an impact driver will be very helpful in removing the phillips screws that hold on the valve cover and lots of other things. lots of guys replace the phillips screws with allen screws.

Really curious to find out what exactly happened. you know what to do when life gives you lemons . . .

Offline m00ntan

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Re: Bike died. Might be the end of it.
« Reply #43 on: April 03, 2011, 08:12:59 PM »
Very sorry to hear about your bike.  It's very sad.

About the money, somebody just got paid $2,500 for the American Opportunity Credit, if your at least half time (9 credits) student.  If your a dependent, you can explain that not having transportation will cost your support the credit for next year.  If you are paying your own support, you have a really fat bank account or a bad accountant.

Just some thoughts, nobody cares.

Good luck with your bike.
« Last Edit: April 03, 2011, 08:20:37 PM by m00ntan »
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Offline the technological J

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Re: Bike died. Might be the end of it.
« Reply #44 on: April 03, 2011, 08:36:58 PM »
i just read your thread here and i havnt seen anyone address the issue of your shifting you were talking about  but if you just changed the clutch cable theres a good chance that was your shifting issue  due to an improper adjustment on it.. i know that i just adjusted my clutch cable and solved some shifting probs and it wasnt a lower end problem.. but ill saty posteded i have a few parts as well
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Offline cobra2411

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Re: Bike died. Might be the end of it.
« Reply #45 on: April 03, 2011, 08:48:21 PM »
My two cents advice is to keep the bike and get it running again. You have no way of knowing if the next bike you buy isn't about to blow up too. There's lots of people here willing to help out so it won't be too expensive to get the bike on the road and then you'll know the engine's good to go for a while.

Wait till you get the engine out and apart before you make a decision at least. It's too easy to just throw in the towel when something breaks.

Offline Anti-Johnny

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Re: Bike died. Might be the end of it.
« Reply #46 on: April 03, 2011, 09:47:40 PM »
Very sorry to hear about your bike.  It's very sad.

About the money, somebody just got paid $2,500 for the American Opportunity Credit, if your at least half time (9 credits) student.  If your a dependent, you can explain that not having transportation will cost your support the credit for next year.  If you are paying your own support, you have a really fat bank account or a bad accountant.

Just some thoughts, nobody cares.

Good luck with your bike.

I am going to look into this more. I think I qualify for it. I recieve about 6K a year to pay for school. Ive been independent since I was 16. I wonder how many other things like this are out there. I will try to find out tomorrow what this is about and if I can get it. Thanks a lot for the info. I never got the finances talk before I left home so I am pretty stupid with it.

There is no way to recover enough money to get another bike any time soon, if I sell it how it is now. So thats out. I want to keep the bike. I was directed to someone a couple hours away that has a couple engines. He doesnt know the history on them other than they were stored indoors. He's going to do a compression check and see if they run through gears. The price is affordable enough that if it is a dud that I can part it out to recover cost. I have pictures but Ill post them later when I know what the tests show.

The clutch cable broke last Wednesday. I wasnt able to get one and put it on until Friday. I had ridden it about ten miles when this happened. I didnt tighten it up as much as it was before, but it still came out of gear alright.

the second or third week that I had it, there was a pretty scary clack noise once when I kicked the bike over. This was 5 months or so ago though. This is the only time I thought I had broken the bike. But it started right up on the next kick. I dont know if that explains a ring or goo in my pan. I think I made a post about it and was told not to worry.

Other than that, everything has been good. Except the last couple weeks some hard shifting. Like it wont get out of gear or into one. This would be temporary though and it would be fine again. I had read about it and thought maybe my clutch was going out?

The bike is at my friends house in Austin, he doesnt have a place for me to break down the engine, so I will be making arrangements this week to go by and get it out.

In the mean time if anyone has a good running engine theyve taken out for whatever reason. I can afford to pay some, then I can part out my bike and send money as it comes. That might be a tall order. Might not even be necessary. But I know some people have some.

Otherwise I can see about where these other engines take me. I havent decided if a swap is the way to go yet. It might work out fine, but then not knowing at all if something might go wrong at any moment. I guess this is the big lesson that that comes with the territory of an old bike.
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Offline Don R

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Re: Bike died. Might be the end of it.
« Reply #47 on: April 03, 2011, 09:52:22 PM »
I'd do the engine swap. Hang in there. Maybe part the old engine to help with the cost. If you have good carbs hang on to them.
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Offline Pinhead

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Re: Bike died. Might be the end of it.
« Reply #48 on: April 03, 2011, 10:26:02 PM »
I'd follow Hondaman's advice; these SOHC engines are a lot simpler than you may think.
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Offline Gaither

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Re: Bike died. Might be the end of it.
« Reply #49 on: April 03, 2011, 11:20:02 PM »
AJ

'Sorry for the trouble with your bike. 'Seems as if you already had enough problems. Most of us have "been there" in one fashion or another.

Hang in there. You will get this all worked out and be riding the bike again.

***To the rest of you fellas, You are to be highly commended you for sharing your thoughts, ideas, experience and most of all for your generousity in wanting to help AJ. This Forum is made up of one great bunch of people! What a team!
Gaither ('77 CB550F)