Topic: Who understands wiring schematics?

[The A1 and A2 German]

1) Green Arrow:  What is that little box supposed to represent at the tip of the green arrow, I would think ground (I understand it's -, and tied into ground), but that's not the ground symbol?

2) Off the AC generator (bottom center) you'll see the yellow arrow, follow that up (past the other yellow arrow, it's the same wire) and (you'll see it's inline fused) to that switch box that I black x'd out. That box has been deleted. So I'm trying to complete the circuit otherwise as where to run/how to run this yellow arrow wire.
 
Coming out of that box (if it was still there) would be the red arrow (was yellow), follow it down  , to the where the blue arrow is, and ties into the red output if the AC Generator.

So again, in order from yellow arrow out of AC. Generator: Wire out of gen up to inline fuse, to switch box, out of switch box back to line from red arrow generator.

Question is, shall I just inline fuse yellow lead, and tie it into red lead? Or is the switch some kind of momentary switch, etc? Anyone know what amp I should inline it with?   

Better pic here: http://www.cmsnl.com/classic-honda-fansite/honda_wiring_diagrams/CL175(after_1970).jpg

[kirkn]

The green wire coming out of the 'top' of the rectifier which dead ends (your green arrow) is just a spare ground wire connection, in case you add an accessory or something.  It can just stay there empty.

The CL175 (along with all the 60s/70s Honda Twins, have a two-stage alternator.  The yellow wire (your red arrow at the alternator) goes directly to one side input to the rectifier (the pink wire from the alternator goes to the other side input to the rectifier).  This circuit's output gets rectified (converted from AC to DC) and goes to charge the battery and/or supply all the running loads.  It does this all the time.

The yellow/white wire coming out of the alternator (your yellow arrow) is an auxiliary charging circuit that ties into the yellow wire output WHEN THE HEADLIGHTS ARE SWITCHED ON.  That's why that yellow/white goes up to the handlebar switch (your X'd out switch).  When the lights are switched on, in addition to turning on the lights, the switch ties that auxiliary output (yellow/white) into the existing output (yellow) to feed into the rectifier and give additional charging to the battery when the lights are on.

Since the charging systems on the twins is usually pretty marginal anyway, and since nowadays all the states require "always on" headlights, you can go ahead and permanently connect the yellow/white wire to the yellow wire and be done with it.  It won't overcharge your battery, and it'll simplify your lighting switch.

There is no inline fuse in that circuit at all.  I think you might be misinterpreting the symbol for a wire connector.  There's a whole column of wire connectors shown on that diagram, not a whole column of inline fuses.  In fact, the only fuse in the whole CL175 system is a single main fuse coming off the main battery (+) cable at the starter solenoid.  That fused wire supplies the entire bike.

Simple. 

Good luck with it all and post back for any other questions.

Kirk

[The A1 and A2 German]

P.S............. I love you.

Thanx man, hopefully I'll have my harness fully sorted and complete.....just what I need, thanks again.

-Blake

[The A1 and A2 German]

O.K. I few things, good grief, so much for just a couple electrical connections:

After component deletions (switch boxes, tachs,etc) and a reinstall of the coil onto the bike, this black wire (pictured) got tucked behind the coil making it out of sight and mind, I would not get spark. I grounding it and did nothing, yet giving it 12volts switched, it started (however battery drain after ~5 minutes).

 

Using this method:  Check spark polarity using an analog (moving needle) volt meter. Hook up a voltmeter with the negative lead to the plug terminal and the positive lead to the block. Set the meter on the highest volt range. Crank the engine over (no need to start it), and you should see an upward swing of the voltmeter needle (don't be concerned with taking a reading). If the needle swings down off the scale, your coil is hooked up wrong:  Off of :  http://mgaguru.com/mgtech/ignition/ig104.htm

The results: My meter swung backward, saying I was reversed, hence maybe the battery drain. So, now I've had others chime in a little, they are contradictory to each other..and considering it's voltage don't wanna start playing with fire.  This is what's said:
______________________________________________________________

1 person:
The above meter test is irrelevant, spark is spark, and that link is also for another type of motor/ignition system.
_____________________________________________________________

The other distributes the actual wiring schematics of one part concerning the mystery wire off the coil and says : 

It specifies "reversing vehicle electrical system polarity will reverse direction of spark drive. The engine still runs either way, but spark might be more reliable under marginal conditions if you get it right. The simple fix for this is to reverse the two primary wire connections on the ignition coil".

The black wire at 12V+ is wrong according to the manual, it should be grounded! The blue is 12V+ switched by the points ignition. If you hooked it up in reverse that could explain the discharge problem as well, it's discharging from the coil. Fix this ASAP you will kill the coil.
Edit: The tab may not be a ground 'per se', but electrons will still slowly move from the black wire if it is at 12V+ to the frame, discharging the battery.
Edit 2: The battery will NOT drain if the bike is not running: the points won't supply 12V+ to the coil.
Black = ground, blue = points and you should be good to go.
____________________________________________________________


Which the second I guess would make sense, yet I labeled the points/condenser wires off the coil one at a time and all off them match up to there labeled mates except that black wire as it was out of sight and mind. Yet it's only hersay saying the, " Manual is wrong." 

So, after using this schematic   http://www.cmsnl.com/classic-honda-fansite/honda_wiring_diagrams/CL175(after_1970).jpg

I wired the system per those rules:


With the the only only real exception being: (#1 Arrow, one left) I tied the W/Y (white/yellow) AC Generator wire into the the rest of the system Y (yellow) as I no longer have a headlight switch and the headlight is always on (as I understand it the w/y is to come on to give additional current with the headlight is switched on).

This is what maybe ties into the above portion and what's going on. The BK (black wire) off the starter switch needs 12volts (#2), once hitting the momentary switch it completes the circuit sending juice to the starter cranking it over. Well, the BK (black) wire off the Regulator is reading, you guessed it, negative:

 

It's reading - both @ key switched and running! Yet, one, I sought black was generally +, and two, the fact that black Starter Switch needs + (#2) to engage and it appears that black other lead is always a positive lead. So I have the black wire off the Regulator reading negative, yet says it needs to be lined into the other bk leads, yet those are +.

Conclusion? Possible my spark polarity is actually backwards, correcting it would give me the meter upswing, and giving the proper polarity would act on the system changing this BK (black lead) of the reg to positive, enabling me to tie it into the BK (black) Start Switch lead (#2)?

If true, my wiring schematics on my sheet are correct, and my coil connections are wrong?   



THANX FOR ANY OF THOSE GOING THROUGH ALL THIS TAKING A LOOK!



 

[kirkn]

Uhhh..... I'm sorry, that was just too much to slog thru with all the descriptions of needle jumping, etc.

I think you've got a couple problems going on.

**EDIT**   I just read through your post a bit more:  Ditch all that advice they're giving you.  Whoever is suggesting that the manual is wrong and that black wire is ground is flat out incorrect.  That person must be thinking of some other machine entirely.   

Your homemade wiring schematic is NEARLY correct, but you've done a couple odd things and I haven't sorted thru the implications.

In your diagram, deviation 1 is OK - connecting the yellow and the white wires together is just fine.

On your rectifier, you have the green wire connected to the green wire of the regulator, and this is fine BUT ONLY IF THEY BOTH ARE ALSO CONNECTED TO GROUND.  They both MUST be connected to ground, and your diagram doesn't show that.

The red & white wire from your rectifier MUST connect to the battery (+) terminal and your diagram doesn't show that.  However, if the large battery (+) cable is also connected to the red & white wire at the thing you've labeled 'starter switch', then that's OK.

Finally, the black wire from your regulator should be connected to the "system" voltage anywhere downstream of the ignition key.  That wire feeds system voltage to the regulator.  The regulator then looks at whatever voltage is on that black wire, and if it's too much, the regulator takes that to mean that the charging system is supplying too much and the regulator steps in and shunts some of the alternator output to ground.  When the voltage on the black wire falls back down, the regulator is happy and stops shunting output to ground. 

So, you should keep the regulator's black wire away from the starter switch region and look for an area that might be more stable, like at the headlights, or even at the battery itself.

Lastly, in your first picture, you make reference to "this black wire" but the focus of the picture seems to be a black with white stripe wire.  The black w-white stripe wire gets supplied with 12 volts when the key is turned on.  That power flows into the ignition coil, and OUT of the coil to the points and condenser.  Make sure that the black w-white stripe wire is getting 12 volts (switched by the key and/or kill switch) and that's good enough.

Kirk

[The A1 and A2 German]

Thanx much for your help. I'm my home made schematics I didn't cover every single thing, yet it's how you mentioned it.

So I took the black wire off the reg, and ran to directly to the + battery terminal for a test run. After 5 minutes: Drain and died.

I tested the polarity off that black lead off the reg that's supposed to go to " System" voltage and reads:  Negative

EDIT: I've tried some more times, even installed the head lamp (thinking maybe their needed to be some kinda of larger load on the system as all running lights, blinkers, etc are gone) with the same results.

 

   

[kirkn]

OK, so we're all squared away except for one issue:  the battery gets discharged in 5 minutes of running.

In your photo, I'm not clear what you're measuring - it looks as though you're hooked up to the black wire coming FROM the regulator and not connected up to any black wire from the harness.  In that case, all bets are off as to what any polarity readings show.  That is, you're measuring polarity on a lead that's not really hooked up to anything at all...

The regulator is not strictly required for running; at least for short test runs.  It just keeps the charging system from overcharging the battery.  So, you could completely disconnect the regulator from all three wires (black, yellow and green) and do a test run - see if battery voltage keeps falling off.

If battery voltage keeps falling off, you're faced with searching out either why the system is not charging, or what's dragging the voltage down.  I suspect there's a charging system problem, because it seems to me that anything that's shorted so badly that it drags the battery down in 5 minutes would show up SOMEwhere as melted wiring, smoke, etc.

Good luck,

Kirk

[The A1 and A2 German]

The above is that I'm reading negative off a what's supposed to be a positive lead with green and yellow hooked up.  It's reading - (with the + on the battery) as it sits.


My next jump is just by a new reg & rectifier.


Concerning a magneto,  does it always output voltage? And it's the regulators  job to determine if it's going to be accepted into the system?

Or does it work the other way and the reg tells it how much to make/produce/controls it off and on?

My white with yellow lead reads ~6.2 volts (headlight lead), shall my yellow lead off the magneto read ~6 or ~12volts?

[scottly]

The above is that I'm reading negative off a what's supposed to be a positive lead with green and yellow hooked up.  It's reading - (with the + on the battery) as it sits.

Connect the meter - (black probe) to chassis ground, which should also be connected to battery -. No wonder all your voltage readings have been whacky!!

[The A1 and A2 German]

So you are thinking my black lead off the volt reg is supposed to be negative (grounded or to - battery terminal)?  100% of the bike black wires are positive on this bike...I don't see why every black wire would be black positive, but this one is supposed to be black negative.  Not to mention that lead (with the black meter neddle in it that reads -, is supposed to be wired into a positive lead). If you mean ground/chassis is negative, yeah, not that much of a noob.

The black wire (Black is positive on this bike, green is negative)  off the voltage regulator  (that is supposed to tie into starter switch/solenoid) is reading -, yet I'm supposed to tie a - feed into a + lead? That's shorting the system wiring a positive and negative together. ?   

Yet, I tried your method Scottly, and took that black lead (reading -, even thought it's supposed to be +) and ran it straight to the negative battery post....still died in ~5 minutes.

I've tired running that black wire off the volt reg: 12volts, ground, and black solenoid wire (which is also 12volts)....all the same result.

#1 is where I'm metering polarity off the black volt reg wire and reads -, yet it's supposed to tie into a + charged lead (#2/3)?  Still tried that even though they they are opposing polarity.

 

[kirkn]

A1, you've got to take it easy, here.  You're making some WILD assumptions, you're misterpreting (or missing) what people are telling you, and you're trying to draw some really far-fetched conclusions.   

Scottly was describing your meter-testing-technique NOT HOW TO HOOK UP THE REGULATOR!!.  In your photo, you're using the black probe of your test meter to touch the black wire on the regulator.  "Standard" technique is to connect the black test probe to ground and use the red test probe to touch the various points you're wanting to check.  Scottly's point was that if you don't follow 'standard' conventions, your results can be very wacky and confusing to interpret.  Going forward, you should try to follow that standard technique.  Black meter probe to ground, Red meter probe to whatever test point.  If you come up with a negative voltage, the meter itself will display a negative number.  Just get into that habit.

Secondly, you seem to insist upon thinking that the black wire coming from your regulator somehow "FEEDS" anything at all.  It doesn't.  It "RECEIVES" current from the rest of the wiring.  If you connect the green and the yellow wires, as you have done, but disconnect the black wire and try to read what is "coming out of the regulator on the black", well, that particular measurement has no meaning - the regulator works by TAKING IN whatever is on the black wire of the harness.  Disconnecting the regulator black from the harness black and trying to read something on the regulator black HAS NO MEANING, so stop trying to draw conclusions from something you find there!!!


Now, as to your next step being buying a new regulator and rectifier, well, it's your money of course, but note that the regulator and rectifier are two separate components, and at this point, we have NO reason to believe that there’s any problem at all with the RECTIFIER.

And, it’s foolish to go out and spend money ON A GUESS when a few simple tests can CONFIRM diagnosis.

As I mentioned before, DISCONNECT THE REGULATOR (all 3 wires) and set it aside.  Then, repeat the test run.  Start with a fully charged battery, etc etc.  Run the bike and see if it still discharges the battery in 5 minutes.

If the battery DOES discharge with the regulator completely out of the circuit, then you know the regulator IS NOT causing the problem and doesn’t need to be replaced.  $$$ saved!

Please do that simple test and report back!

Good luck,

Kirk

[kirkn]

Concerning a magneto,  does it always output voltage? And it's the regulators  job to determine if it's going to be accepted into the system?

Or does it work the other way and the reg tells it how much to make/produce/controls it off and on?

Let's get into the habit of calling it the correct name - it's the 'alternator', not a magneto.  General usage convention uses "magneto" as a term for ignition systems.

To answer the first bit - yes, whenever the rotor (a permanent magnet) is spinning (ie motor running), the alternator is putting out voltage/current.

The answer to the question about the regulator is more complicated:

On YOUR machine (CL175), the regulator's job is to look at system voltage and determine if the alternator's output will be shunted to ground, and to do the shunting.  I mentioned this in one of my long-winded posts, above. 

On OTHER vintage Hondas (all the SOHC-4's for example) and other makes, the regulator's job is to monitor the system voltage and tell the alternator to make more or less output and to actually make the alternator make more or less.

[Bodi]

You talk about a battery but there's no battery in your "as built" diagram.
Battery "-" goes directly to ground - the engine case and frame plus all green wires.
The rectifier is grounded via its mounting bolt. Make sure it is, you can test by metering the pink or yellow wires (disconnected): you should get a relatively low reading from each with the ohm meter leads one way around or the other (not both). This also tests the rectifier... you should have a low reading with the leads one way around from both pink and yellow wires to ground, and the other way around to the red wire.
Rectifier red wire goes direct to the battery, or to the starter solenoid stud with the fat red wire from the battery.
You NEED a fuse to protect the smaller harness wires, one fuse wire to battery "+" and the other end to the ignition switch "BAT" terminal. Ignition switch "IG" terminal connects to all the black wires - or (if you are doing your own wiring) to the ignition coil black wires, the regulator black wire, and the headlight & taillight. If you use the stock keyswitch ignore the TL1 and TL2 terminals; these are for the parking light and unless you have some need for this battery drainer, forget about it.
You have the alternator connected right if the lighting is always on.
The regulator must be well grounded. Make sure the green is ground. The black wire must be at battery voltage with the ignition on. Something is wrong with your wiring if it isn't.
The third regulator wire connects to the yellow alternator wire.
I suspect some problem with the rectifier if you get no charging. The selenium type is susceptible to failure modes that don't apply to silicon types, and can develop high forward voltage and high resistance when unused for years: this requires "re-forming" by passing current through it (close to it's rated maximum current) for a few minutes.
The test above should verify it's OK, but even so I would replace it with a simple silicon bridge unit, 25A/100V would be good. Quite cheap and Radio Shack should still have them. These don't ground via the mounting bolt, you have to add a wire from the "-" terminal to ground. The alternator wires connect to the "~" terminals and the battery to "+".

[kirkn]

Hmmm.....  on the old twins, there are 4 wires at the rectifiers, whether or not the unit itself is grounded at the mounting bolt - two AC input wires, and two DC output wires.  The (-) DC output goes to ground.  I didn't know that it mattered if the device itself was grounded.

Further, I've read in other forums that the regulator body itself absolutely must NOT be grounded.  In fact, they're usually mounted on a rubber insulator for just that reason.  The green wire must be connected to ground, but not the regulator itself.


Yep, Radio Shack sells what you want.  I picked up 5 of 'em for ~$25.  I've used two so far - one on my own CB360T and one on my son's Yamaha IT490 enduro.  It came with AC lighting, and we installed the rectifier and used it to charge a battery to supply lights, blinkers, horn etc and converted it to street-legal.

[Bodi]

I haven't seen a selenium bike rectifier in a few years, most have been replaced with silicon by now. You're probably right about the ground wire. The square plates are the actual diodes, and some arrange insulators so that the centre of the plate on one side is grounded via the bolt through the middle. Another type has the bolt fully insulated cage and all contacts brought out on wires. The rubber cage protects the plates. If you drop one and the plate gets sharply bent the selenium coating on one side can be damaged and ruin that diode.

[The A1 and A2 German]

Well fellas, this may just go down as the larger dumb ass moments on these forums.....through all my frustrations, your help and running through schematics being simply dumb founded....... (and you'll have to excuse me) and that ridding is actually required (it's not in a full running state: seat, custom clutch cable, etc have to be done) to properly charge the system, ~3000 rpms minimum....hence it can only go ~10 minutes idle.

All wiring as it sat appeared to be proper. Once clutch is sorted, we'll find out for sure.

And yesL
Regulator body itself absolutely must NOT be grounded, correct, fitted via rubber garments.