Author Topic: lithium battery exploded - w/ pic (Read 10882 times)

plug1 · « **on:** May 23, 2011, 10:37:22 am »

Installed this on a cb400f. The regulator and rectifier are both working properly. I tested them on another battery after this occurred, so I'm not sure what caused it to blow up. The bike just quit and I drifted to the side of the road. After about 3 or 4 minutes of smoking one of the cells finally blew up.

scottly · « **Reply #1 on:** May 23, 2011, 10:43:52 am »

Was this a LiFe, or LiPo?

plug1 · « **Reply #2 on:** May 23, 2011, 10:49:07 am »

Lithium Phosphate

Bakeoff · « **Reply #3 on:** May 23, 2011, 10:58:06 am »

There have been problems with a ton of these batteries since they came out. Some brands have no issues. Others have had a bunch of fires. Research the brand and see what you can find out.

phil71 · « **Reply #4 on:** May 23, 2011, 11:23:20 am »

yeah, this is a bad idea. The rate of charge and the quality/stability of current on a OEM charging system will blow up lots of batteries.. You'd need a charging system that's a lot more steady and regulated to make this work. What's the advantage?

domer · « **Reply #5 on:** May 23, 2011, 11:26:38 am »

holy #$%*.... glad to hear the rest of the bike is ok, that could have been real bad!

crazypj · « **Reply #6 on:** May 23, 2011, 12:08:19 pm »

400f has around 110~150w alternator (?) which can charge battery at max of 10~12 AMPS
Usually, load (coils, lights, etc) limits power available to charge battery, plus, physical size of stock battery will 'absorb' excess current (as long as it's not for excessive time)
Stock battery is about 10~12 A/hr which means you probably have a constant 1~2 amps charge.
The battery you used is just too small and probably needed a few milliamps (50~100 ma?) to properly charge
You need to know more than just how to connect up a battery, you need to know why your doing thigs (not just 'fashion'

)

Bankerdanny · « **Reply #7 on:** May 23, 2011, 12:29:53 pm »

Was your battery motorcycle specific?

plug1 · « **Reply #8 on:** May 23, 2011, 12:58:32 pm »

This battery is marketed and sold as a motorcycle battery. The 4 cell variety is claimed to be good for up to 750cc. The reason I went this route had nothing to do with "fashion" as some of you will obviously presume. I know a lot of guys on this forum are using these things so I figured I'd share this with them.

Bankerdanny · « **Reply #9 on:** May 23, 2011, 01:41:58 pm »

Thanks for the post.

I don't see why anyone would think they were a fashion statement. These batteries are only nominally more expensive than a gel type and advertise themselves as providing several benefits including much lighter weight, greater CCA's, and ablility to hold the charge longer. So there is a good case for purchasing one if you are in need of a battery.

It's good to hear aobut the potential downsides as well.

hyde7278 · « **Reply #10 on:** May 23, 2011, 02:04:35 pm »

Explosion and fire is one of the drawbacks with this type of battery LiPo, a few years back Dell and quite a few other computer MFG had similar problems with them catching fire. There are the LiFe batterys (shoria) That are much more stable and dont explode when over charged. I believe theres a few posts about the LiFe batterys and a group buy for them also

Hannibal Smith · « **Reply #11 on:** May 23, 2011, 02:10:18 pm »

Thanks for the heads up.
I considered one of these batteries, but after asking a few expert electrical guys, they all said that my best bet was a small lead-acid all said and done.
I am doing this for fashion (kick only cafe) and was convinced that a very small conventional lead-acid was the way to go.

TwoTired · « **Reply #12 on:** May 23, 2011, 04:58:40 pm »

Many of the pioneers of the new land were easily recognized by the arrows in their backs.

New battery technology has many variations, and requirements/limitations among those variations.

If you ignore the details and make assumptions based no or faulty information .... zzzzip ... another new pain near the spine.

Lithium batteries describe a whole family of battery variations. There are even variations among a single part of that family. Either pay attention, or stick to the modern tech of the 70s for a 70s electrical system.

I have a new Shorai ready to go into a CB550. It certainly looks nothing like what was pictured above from the outside. Further, without knowing why the battery exploded, the pictures are pretty meaningless, regardless of their "shock value". The poster didn't even know what technology the battery was fashioned from. Lithium Phosphate is not an adequate description. Even if it were meant to be stated LiFEPo4 (Lithium Iron Phosphate), there are variations even within that technology in construction techniques. Some of these techniques are patented. So, two batteries that use the same basic materials, can have a very different operating specification, and tolerance to charge/discharge variations. Variations that salesmen do know about or won't say if it means limiting sales.

I like to think an educated buyer/user can avoid battery explosions/fire.

I'll be monitoring my 550 for charging and battery potentials at the Shorai terminals, at least until I have confidence that the battery won't be mistreated. The Shorai data sheet does list charging restrictions, warns of starting cycles of more than 10 seconds. And clearly warns about excessive depletion (Do not allow depletion below 13V resting). I'm thinking a voltmeter is essential equipment on a Shorai or any LiFePo4 battery.

If it does blows up, I'll at least know what conditions caused it, rather than condemning a whole technology based on one mysterious occurrence.

So, regarding the blown up battery pictured, and assuming it was a LiFePo4 battery:

Did the battery pack ever get discharged below 13V resting?
Did the charging system limit the battery max charge to 14.4 V throughout it's service life?
Were there starting events that lasted longer the 10 seconds?
Was the battery ever put on a smart charger/conditioner that balance charged the battery to 100% of capacity?

Cheers,

TwoTired · « **Reply #13 on:** May 23, 2011, 05:47:06 pm »

Yes, it is a little different on the 550, the battery location is more under a buttock.

But your drift, rt, is probably spot on. The stock charging system was made to utilize the more forgiving charge and discharge characteristics of the lead acid technology. Really, all it has to worry about is not over charging the battery.

The lithium technology has some benefits over the Lead acid tech in some areas. But, it needs a smarter approach to keep it in good health, particularly monitoring the state of charge and not allowing it to go too low. In my case, I have a fall back that if it becomes untenable for the SOHC4 routine operation, I can still use it in my R/C hobby.

Btw, Shorai does recommend and sell a balance charger for the batteries they sell.

Cheers,

scottly · « **Reply #14 on:** May 23, 2011, 06:26:33 pm »

After having a few miles with an Lifepo4 battery under my buttocks, I recommend upgrading to a solid state regulator; the stock mechanical regulator will allow voltage peaks over 15V. These batteries don't have the "smoothing" effect at all when fully charged. I have been playing around with the Ford regulator suggested by pinhead, and it looks to be the best option...

TwoTired · « **Reply #15 on:** May 23, 2011, 09:27:34 pm »

Quote from: scottly on May 23, 2011, 06:26:33 pm

After having a few miles with an Lifepo4 battery under my buttocks, I recommend upgrading to a solid state regulator; the stock mechanical regulator will allow voltage peaks over 15V.

Curious, do you have an on board digital meter you've been monitoring?

Also, I don't understand how the standard regulator can ignore voltages over 14.5 when properly adjusted. Could the contacts be sticking?

Lastly, are you saying there is an ac component allowed that the high impedance of the battery can't quash?

Cheers,

scottly · « **Reply #16 on:** May 23, 2011, 09:59:57 pm »

Quote from: TwoTired on May 23, 2011, 09:27:34 pm

Curious, do you have an on board digital meter you've been monitoring?

I checked the voltage with an off board digital meter. This was the day before I left on the relay. I adjusted the stock reg to keep the max V below 15V, and hoped for the best. It worked out OK; no explosions under my backside!!

Quote from: TwoTired on May 23, 2011, 09:27:34 pm

Also, I don't understand how the standard regulator can ignore voltages over 14.5 when properly adjusted.
Cheers,

The mechanical regulator can't react to voltage changes as fast as a solid state reg. Also, the mechanical reg can only bounce between it's voltage limits, rather than limit the maximum voltage applied to the battery. The max charging voltage for these batteries is 14.4 V. Not 14.4 plus or minus 1V.

crazypj · « **Reply #17 on:** May 23, 2011, 10:33:41 pm »

I can't remember where I read it (probably Tony Tranters book?)
Mechanical regulators can't cycle more than about 60 times a second, early solid state hundreds of times a second (1970's) and 'modern' solid state several thousand times a second (or more)

mrbreeze · « **Reply #18 on:** May 23, 2011, 11:38:44 pm »

You guys are blowing my and perhaps 1000's of other people's minds on this forum...........WTF??? ....why don't you guys go into business and make millions of $$$$$ ......

?
My sh!t charges my battery............it doesn't explode............. why do you have to freak everyone out with all of your BS?

If it is all about the new fangled Lithium sh!t batteries...fine!!!! I don't care but don't go freakin' everyone out ...................WTF?

TwoTired · « **Reply #19 on:** May 24, 2011, 12:10:14 am »

Quote from: scottly on May 23, 2011, 09:59:57 pm

I checked the voltage with an off board digital meter. This was the day before I left on the relay. I adjusted the stock reg to keep the max V below 15V, and hoped for the best. It worked out OK; no explosions under my backside!!

Glad no explosions!

But, what prevented you from adjusting to the normal 14.5 V limit and risking damage to the battery (outside of manufacturer recommendations)?

Quote from: scottly on May 23, 2011, 09:59:57 pm

The mechanical regulator can't react to voltage changes as fast as a solid state reg. Also, the mechanical reg can only bounce between it's voltage limits, rather than limit the maximum voltage applied to the battery. The max charging voltage for these batteries is 14.4 V. Not 14.4 plus or minus 1V.

I don't know why reaction speed is an important issue. The Vregs only job is to keep the battery from overcharging and allow the alternator to provide as much of the bikes load current as possible with the RPMs present at the time.

I'm not aware of any switching loads on the bike that actually require a super fast response time of the regulator.
OK, so the electronic one is faster. Um, so what exactly is that helping/protecting? The battery voltage still dominates the bike's system voltage and it's high impedance to change is still there whether it be lead acid or LiFePo4. If the mechanical one is working as designed, it reduces alternator current if the battery voltage gets to 14.5V. Butm then the bike load is more than the alternator can provide, so some power comes out of the battery for a partial discharge. The voltage lowers and the Vreg kicks the alternator output back up, so the battery gets power back into it. The only difference between a faster response and a slow response is the duty cycle of the switching, and those pulses are ironed out by the battery in either case due to it's low impedance.

I've got nothing against electronic regulators per se, but what is on the bike really cares about faster response to regulation?

I can see it if you are going to be adding digital equipment. (I was a power supply design engineer for a time, so I am familiar with power conditioning needs.) I just can't find anything on the bike that actually needs that fine an edge on the regulator blade, if you know what I mean.

Quote from: crazypj on May 23, 2011, 10:33:41 pm

I can't remember where I read it (probably Tony Tranters book?)
Mechanical regulators can't cycle more than about 60 times a second, early solid state hundreds of times a second (1970's) and 'modern' solid state several thousand times a second (or more)

Ok, without verifying that what your say is true or false. What, on the bike requires a faster Vreg cycle time? "Faster" can get you into trouble as often as not. Resistive elements are quite tolerant of voltage excursions without any detriment to those components at all.

The battery is the rock in the system that everything else refers to for operation, and it certainly doesn't care if it's load is pulsed or if the charge current is pulsed. It's just attending to whether it's handing out power or taking it back in.

The Shorai documentation does warn of lead acid chargers that use high voltage pulses as an anti-sulfation technique. But, the SOHC4 certainly doesn't have that (if in proper working condition). If you really want to treat the new LiFePo4 Shorai battery right, you'll want to readjust the V reg for a 14.4V peak charge at the battery.

I'll be doing measurements on a bike soon. Should be interesting...

Cheers,

scottly · « **Reply #20 on:** May 24, 2011, 06:45:54 pm »

Quote from: TwoTired on May 24, 2011, 12:10:14 am

The battery voltage still dominates the bike's system voltage and it's high impedance to change is still there whether it be lead acid or LiFePo4.

The LiFePo4 does not have the same impedance to changes in voltage as lead-acid when at a full charged state.

crazypj · « **Reply #21 on:** May 24, 2011, 10:40:08 pm »

What happens when you switch a coil on and off?
If it wasn't for switching, ignition coil could only 'step up' to around 4,500~6,000 volts (acting as a transformer)
If you put a PVA on mechanical reg you will see voltage spikes much higher than regulated voltage.
Modern reg doesn't allow 'zero' volt switching and tends to 'hover' between 4~14 v, depending on battery condition.
The larger the battery, the better able it is to cope with spikes in voltage.
You will also get a 'spike' from ignition coil back feeding into 12v supply, usually around 120v~320v when engine is running, (although it's way down in milli-amp range)
Put a PVA on coil wire sometime, results will surprise you

Achmed · « **Reply #22 on:** May 24, 2011, 11:07:24 pm »

This is what happens when you put a cell phone battery on a motorcycle. I'm kidding but goodness, that looks like a tiny battery.

Man, battery technology has got to be growth industry. I imagine there is a lot of room for advancement but it seems to be pretty slow.

Fred T · « **Reply #23 on:** May 25, 2011, 05:50:24 am »

For those using Lipo batteries, it is suggested to place them in a flameproof container. Mt kid flies radio controlled airplanes, and manufacturers suggest putting them in a flameproof container, or charging outside in a safe place, as they do explode occasionally, specially when charging .

motocyconomad · « **Reply #24 on:** May 25, 2011, 06:04:58 am »

I got that exact same battery in my bike ran it for about 3 months I love it have not had anything happen and I feel the less weight under the seat. That said after seeing that pic I'll be paying close attention to it.
Buy the way what have the people who make and sell the thing have to say?

News:

Author Topic: lithium battery exploded - w/ pic (Read 10882 times)