Author Topic: 78 750F3 rust bucket  (Read 12107 times)

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Offline Mandic

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Re: 78 750F3 rust bucket
« Reply #25 on: June 27, 2011, 04:27:49 PM »
I think you may lose more than you realize with the piston change.  You will be losing a good deal of compression.  I'd bet an 836 with K pistons is probably about the same power level as stock due to the comrpession lost.  You going with only a single oversize aren't gaining that much displacement.  You will only be at a 749cc motor.  Not trying to be a dick, just informing you of how it is. 

Compression has a lot to do with things.  Honestly when I started my build I wanted to keep stock bore and just install gapless rings to bring up the dynamic compression a bit.
77 CB750F - Cafe/Daily Rider

Offline HondaMan

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Re: 78 750F3 rust bucket
« Reply #26 on: June 28, 2011, 11:55:33 AM »
I think you may lose more than you realize with the piston change.  You will be losing a good deal of compression.  I'd bet an 836 with K pistons is probably about the same power level as stock due to the comrpession lost.  You going with only a single oversize aren't gaining that much displacement.  You will only be at a 749cc motor.  Not trying to be a dick, just informing you of how it is. 

Compression has a lot to do with things.  Honestly when I started my build I wanted to keep stock bore and just install gapless rings to bring up the dynamic compression a bit.

There's something else here at work: as outlined in my book, the power vs. bore displacement increase is not linear in the SOHC4. For example, boring from stock to 0.25mm (one step) on a 750 engine with 5k or more miles brings the HP up 10% or more, often to over 70 HP. I don't have the time just now to explain all of it, but it has to do with metal curing issues and valve shrouding in these engines.

The compression difference of 9.2:1 with flat-topped 836 pistons vs. 10.5:1 with Wiseco domed pistons only makes for a 4 HP difference at the absolute best, and usually makes about 2 HP difference. In any IC engine, raising compression by 10% (like from 9:1 to 10:1) only generates about 3% to 5% more power.

:)
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Offline KB02

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Re: 78 750F3 rust bucket
« Reply #27 on: June 28, 2011, 12:18:33 PM »
As I have told others before: look at my avatar. It could have been worse.

Though I am shocked that that cylinder stud didn't snap when you took off the nut. That's wild.
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Offline Mandic

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Re: 78 750F3 rust bucket
« Reply #28 on: June 28, 2011, 04:12:33 PM »
Having a hard time finding it but I am pretty certain I remember folks saying the normal K bike pistons will drop the compression into the 8.5:1 range with an F2/3 head.  Of course now anywhere I look I can't find the number. 

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Offline JRviper5

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Re: 78 750F3 rust bucket
« Reply #29 on: June 28, 2011, 05:23:52 PM »
After looking at the pictures of your bike I don't feel bad at all. Do not rush the project...Check and recheck. I have almost the same project and the parts are easy to find if you don't rush... You have a lot of work but it is possible. Good luck. I know is going to look nice. Did you choose a color yet? Are you going to keep it original?

Offline Graydude

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Re: 78 750F3 rust bucket
« Reply #30 on: June 28, 2011, 11:42:10 PM »
Thanks for all the comments and interest.  I will be delivering my two new valves and guides to the machine shop tomorrow morning so they can finish the head.  I'm waiting for Z1 to send the new .50 over pistons and the same shop will be boring out the cylinders for installation.  I will be going as stock as I can.  1978 offered the Burgundy r3ed color or the black.  I'm going with black for the new paint job.

Offline oldk6guy

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Re: 78 750F3 rust bucket
« Reply #31 on: June 29, 2011, 08:51:30 AM »
if you dont mind me asking how much is the machine shop charging you for the head work?  i think i need just about the same stuff as you.  valve job, seats ground, guides installed.  i would also need the head media blasted and the old guides removed.
76 cb750 k6: 4 into 4 exhaust, open air horns on carbs.

Offline Graydude

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Re: 78 750F3 rust bucket
« Reply #32 on: July 06, 2011, 10:27:02 PM »
I'll let you know the charges when I'm all done with the machine shop

Offline HondaMan

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Re: 78 750F3 rust bucket
« Reply #33 on: July 08, 2011, 09:05:24 PM »
Having a hard time finding it but I am pretty certain I remember folks saying the normal K bike pistons will drop the compression into the 8.5:1 range with an F2/3 head.  Of course now anywhere I look I can't find the number. 



Flat-domed pistons in a 0.5mm overbore under the F2/3 head net a little over 9.0:1 compression, or about 135 PSI at sea level on a gage. This will work well with our mid-grade gasolines today. ;)
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
Hondaman's creed: "Bikers are family. Treat them accordingly."

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Offline oldk6guy

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Re: 78 750F3 rust bucket
« Reply #34 on: July 09, 2011, 10:31:06 AM »
loving the muffin pan parts bin.  ;D
76 cb750 k6: 4 into 4 exhaust, open air horns on carbs.

Offline Graydude

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Re: 78 750F3 rust bucket
« Reply #35 on: August 19, 2011, 11:32:32 PM »
Almost three months into the rebuild and I think I've turned a corner.  Every nut, bolt, washer and part has been removed, assessed, cleaned or tossed or is waiting to be rebuilt.  I'm pumped I found a talented machine shop with creative ways to help me out or I would have a new door stop.  Here are before and after shots;

Here is the frame before I had it made pretty


Now she is all ready for the dance


This bike sat outside in the Seattle rain for 14 years and sucked up water and excreted rust.  Broke these two screws and easy out in the process. The ones at 12:00 and 6:00 here.


Talented machine shop took three hours to rebuild these threads. They are now at  My painting sucks


The real pisser was the broker cylinder stud


My shop had to totally drill out the old bolt with the broken easy out.  He rebuilt the hole.  Could not find one cylinder stud so went with SS stud.  I would have replaced them all with APE but was scared poopless to remove the remaining studs based on my last experience.


Pistons were not to bad after I removed the old seized rings.   I was planning on just re-ringing and a hone but originals rings are impossible  to find.  They switched to 1.2/1.2/2.80 rings during the last 6 months of the F3 production.  Engines before 3120000 used the common 1.0/1.2/2.80 rings, not my POS.  I did not want to go big bore and have to Jockey with jets, cam etc so HondaMan had the great suggestion to go with regular .50mm over K pistons.  Sucked some up from Z1.


I was worried the built up area for the broken stud would hinder the cylinders going into the block but no problemo


Had two bad exhaust valves and again was like looking for a needle in a haystack to find F valves.  Finally scored two along with the last remaining oil orifice on the plant from Hondaresrotation.com and now I see the site is gone.  Was it something I said?


 Had the head rebuilt with new brass guides and had all the seats re cut.  Looks a little better in there now.  Overspray will be cleaned up from the port.


Now I'm ready to really start the rebuild. I'm going with the SS hex head bolts on the reassembly along with SS brake lines. I still really need a rear master cylinder from a 76, 77 or 78 F.  Can someone help a brother out?


My next installment will be after she starts.  There has got to be a pill to help with re builder's anxiety.  You know how you fret over did I miss an O ring here, put a washer on backwards there, which way did that shim face?  Why do I have so many bonus parts left over?
« Last Edit: August 20, 2011, 08:29:42 AM by Graydude »

Offline HondaMan

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Re: 78 750F3 rust bucket
« Reply #36 on: August 20, 2011, 09:14:25 AM »
You know, you're going to have to change the title from "rust bucket" to "rust rocket" pretty soon...  ;D
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
Hondaman's creed: "Bikers are family. Treat them accordingly."

Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

Link to My CB750 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?adult_audience_rating=00&page=1&pageSize=10&q=my+cb750+book

Link to website: www.SOHC4shop.com

Offline fatkid

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Re: 78 750F3 rust bucket
« Reply #37 on: August 20, 2011, 07:05:03 PM »
plus one on hondaman

Offline Stev-o

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Re: 78 750F3 rust bucket
« Reply #38 on: September 12, 2011, 07:14:14 PM »
Wow - nice work. Cannot blame your son for not taking this project on!
'74 "Big Bang" Honda 750K [836].....'76 Honda 550F.....K3 Park Racer!......and a Bomber!............plus plus plus.........

Offline bluesmoke69

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Re: 78 750F3 rust bucket
« Reply #39 on: September 12, 2011, 09:05:19 PM »
Nice work, it will all be worth it when you ride it for the fist time!!

Offline Free Booter

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Re: 78 750F3 rust bucket
« Reply #40 on: September 12, 2011, 09:09:04 PM »
So much effort put into that engine. Amazing. I would have immediately given up and got another one. Its always inspiring to see what lengths people will go to restore one.

Offline liPPy

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Re: 78 750F3 rust bucket
« Reply #41 on: September 13, 2011, 07:21:21 AM »
Wow - that's quite a transformation :)

Offline 70CB750

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Re: 78 750F3 rust bucket
« Reply #42 on: September 13, 2011, 07:21:36 AM »
Subscribed!  Nice work, Graydude.

How much was the powder coating?

The best way to get a broken bolt out is EMD.  They will basically spark the bolt out, takes some time but works like a charm.  Back in the factory we would do maintenance on die casting dies after few hunderd thousands cycles and some of them would be in really bad shape.  We never used easy out or left hand bit, anything like that.  Just turn a piece of copper to the right diameter and "spark" the bolt out on the EMD machine.
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Offline 70CB750

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Re: 78 750F3 rust bucket
« Reply #43 on: September 13, 2011, 07:39:53 AM »
BTW, liPPy, your avatar was my favored show  :)
Prokop
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I love it when parts come together.

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Offline Graydude

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Re: 78 750F3 rust bucket
« Reply #44 on: September 13, 2011, 08:24:15 AM »
The powder coating cost $250 for the frame and I had the forks, swing arm and about 11 other pieces as well for another $100.  They did an excellent job!

Offline Drewster

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Re: 78 750F3 rust bucket
« Reply #45 on: February 02, 2012, 03:33:39 PM »
What did you use for paint on the frame??  Looks good.

Offline Graydude

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Re: 78 750F3 rust bucket
« Reply #46 on: February 02, 2012, 04:29:00 PM »
Powder coating is all I know.  It was a semi gloss.

Offline Graydude

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Re: 78 750F3 rust bucket-Update
« Reply #47 on: November 18, 2014, 11:32:35 AM »
I've been meaning to update the crowd on the status of Rust Bucket.  I'm happy to report she runs like a champ!  The only issue is a leaking rear master cylinder.  I don't ride her much excpet down to the local watering hole and she never fails to draw a crowd.  I had one guy offer me $4K cash!  I turned him down mainly because my boys would kill me and my wife would as well if she knew I had more than that into Rust Bucket. 

Every nut and bolt came off her.  The motor came off five times.  Took me about 1 1/2 years to finish her.  She truly was a PITA and I don't know that I would dot it again.  Simply because the parts are so hard to find.  Oh, one of the biggest improvements came when Vintage750 came out with the aftermarket carb boots.  Most of my performance issues went away with the new boots.  She was very senstive to air leaks and lean running.  Here she is today:








Offline SOHC4 Cafe Racer Fan

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Re: 78 750F3 rust bucket
« Reply #48 on: November 18, 2014, 12:25:52 PM »
Great looking bike Graydude!
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Offline MoMo

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Re: 78 750F3 rust bucket
« Reply #49 on: November 18, 2014, 07:22:13 PM »
superb restoration...Larry