Author Topic: Rough idle diagnosis (with video) cb550k 1978  (Read 1933 times)

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Offline Tretnine

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Rough idle diagnosis (with video) cb550k 1978
« on: June 01, 2011, 03:07:24 PM »


This is my 550. It gets down to ~1000 RPM at idle, but really sounds like garbage. I don't know if you can hear the sound, the video sounds like this was made in a cave. It races sometimes, but will idle pretty evenly at 1000 rpm. The clack/rattle sound from the video appears at low idle speed, but disappears at higher revs (1400+, usually, though sometimes it will run at lower without making such a fuss)

Details:
42 pilots
IMS 2.5 screws out
98 mains
87 octane fuel with 10% ethanol
Foam air filter
Recent lower end rebuild with new cam & primary chains, rings and honing
46c Carburetors
2349f needle clips at position three
dyna s ignition.
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2009 Kawasaki Concours, 1978 cb550k, 2006 BMW F650GS

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Offline Bankerdanny

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Re: Rough idle diagnosis (with video) cb550k 1978
« Reply #1 on: June 01, 2011, 03:17:54 PM »
Your IMS screws are out about a full turn more than the baseline for your bike. Still of you get a reasonably consistent idle around 1,00-1,100 RPMs that seems just fine to me.

Timing chain rattle at low RPMs also is not unusual for these bikes I believe.
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Re: Rough idle diagnosis (with video) cb550k 1978
« Reply #2 on: June 01, 2011, 03:26:18 PM »
Sounds like a slight misfire causing a clutch or cam chain rattle.  A carb sync and a bit of Lucas fuel additive will smooth it out.

Offline Tretnine

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Re: Rough idle diagnosis (with video) cb550k 1978
« Reply #3 on: June 01, 2011, 03:36:43 PM »
There is a brand new cam chain and primary chain in this machine. I just synced the carbs yesterday. I just double checked my timing chain settings just ten minutes ago. Is that timing chain rattle? It definitely sounds like chain rattle to me. I'm very interested in this clutch rattle phenomena, can someone explain that?
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Offline Bankerdanny

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Re: Rough idle diagnosis (with video) cb550k 1978
« Reply #4 on: June 01, 2011, 03:41:45 PM »
Even with a new chain there could be rattle. It does seem loud for a chain though.

I suppose clutch noise could be an option too. If you pull in the clutch lever does it go away?
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Current: '76 CB750F. Previous:  '75 CB550F, 2007 Yamaha Vino 125 Scooter, '75 Harley FXE Superglide, '77 GL1000, '77 CB550k, '68 Suzuki K10 80, '68 Yamaha YR2, '69 BMW R69S, '71 Honda SL175, '02 Royal Enfield Bullet 500, '89 Yamaha FJ1200

Offline Tretnine

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Re: Rough idle diagnosis (with video) cb550k 1978
« Reply #5 on: June 01, 2011, 03:45:30 PM »
It gets louder when in neutral and is less prominent when the clutch is pulled in, but does not go away.
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Offline Bankerdanny

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Re: Rough idle diagnosis (with video) cb550k 1978
« Reply #6 on: June 01, 2011, 03:49:32 PM »
If puling in the clutch makes a difference then that is likely a contributor to the noise at least. You might want to tighten up the clutch cable a bit to take up what sounds like some excess slack in the mechanism.
"The problem with quotes on the Internet is that you never know if they're true" - Abraham Lincoln

Current: '76 CB750F. Previous:  '75 CB550F, 2007 Yamaha Vino 125 Scooter, '75 Harley FXE Superglide, '77 GL1000, '77 CB550k, '68 Suzuki K10 80, '68 Yamaha YR2, '69 BMW R69S, '71 Honda SL175, '02 Royal Enfield Bullet 500, '89 Yamaha FJ1200

Offline Spanner 1

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Re: Rough idle diagnosis (with video) cb550k 1978
« Reply #7 on: June 01, 2011, 04:05:35 PM »
OOOOOh!.... that's loud iddinit.   Still sounds like clutch rattle to me. Do the exhaust pulses feel equal?, seeing you have 4 pipes, put your hand over each exhaust at idle and see if even ( bet not! ). Maybe another go at the carb sync. is needed, you did mean a vacuum sync. right ?
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Offline haill

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Re: Rough idle diagnosis (with video) cb550k 1978
« Reply #8 on: June 01, 2011, 04:16:30 PM »
you sure your adjuster for your cam chain is working? maybe it's stuck and needs some movement on your part to get the spring to free and tension the chain.
easy to check just back the nut right off and move the bolt back and forth, some people adjust the chain while the bikes running.
« Last Edit: June 01, 2011, 04:48:00 PM by haill »

Offline Tretnine

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Re: Rough idle diagnosis (with video) cb550k 1978
« Reply #9 on: June 01, 2011, 04:43:08 PM »
The vacuum sync is as good as it's ever been. I'll probably recheck it soon enough, but this problem has existed with three different sets of carburetors and a dozen different vacuum syncs. I have a nice tool (the morgan carbtune) so I trust the results.

I would like to pursue the clutch rattle idea. It's the only idea presented I haven't beaten to death yet. Do I need a new clutch basket? Just tighten things up? What?
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Offline TwoTired

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Re: Rough idle diagnosis (with video) cb550k 1978
« Reply #10 on: June 01, 2011, 05:13:16 PM »
Criminy, that's awful.  You really need to fix that.

Most of what I hear is transmission gear clack, and is caused by uneven cylinder firing pulses I can also hear.

I think I described the gear clack before.  All the trans gears are always meshed.  But, they aren't locked to a shaft until an engagement dog is moved sideways on that shaft.
So you have ten gears and each is paired with a mate.  The gear tooth mesh is not zero tolerance, meaning there is space between teeth both frontside and backside unless there is a speed change for either of them.  Yours are going into oscillation and alternating contact frontside and backside.  Your clutch basket mass changes the timbre when you disengage the clutch.  The clutch plates can rattle in the clutch basket, too.  Which is yet another noise for changing /alternating rotational speeds.

The clack is bad enough on yours that it is unlikely you could even hear the cam chain tick.  But, I would ensure the tensioner shoe is really keeping the slack out of the chain.  Changing the cam position relative to the crank will add to uneven firing pulses.

You can probably feel the un-eveness in the exhaust pulses among the four pipes.

Usually, a carb balance takes care of it, if the engine mechanicals are sound. 
Do you have comparative cylinder compression numbers?
Are you absolutely certain that the valves are adjusted properly?
Could you have cam lobes worn unevenly among the cylinders?

After you have total confidence that the engine mechanical is working as it should, that only leaves the carbs as the problem source.

Given the carb balance was done properly and and evenly, something is different among the carbs regarding fuel and air delivery.

Try to feel the exhaust for the oddball pulse strength and/or irregular pulse frequencies.  Like does it fire 4 out of five regular intervals.  Are they all different or just a couple?   It would be helpful to isolate down to specific unreliable cylinders.
If you have exhausted any hope of finding a difference among the 4 carbs, then you might be able to compensate with the IMS on the cylinders firing differently from the dominant ones.  Tweak them to make the weak ones stronger on the exhaust pulses.  If the IMS needles and seats have been damaged, the number of turns won't have the same effect compared to the others.

Here's something to try toward that end.  At idle, you should be able to stop any chosen cylinder from firing, by closing the IMS.  Find the threshold point where you can make it come and go (feeling the exhaust pulses).  Do the same for each in turn.  All the while tweaking the big idle knob to keep the idle RPM at a fixed indication.
This process will be reiterative. Get a fan on the motor as it is going to take some time.  You will probably have to spring for the good right angle screwdriver for this trial, as well, because you will have one hand on the exhaust tip and the other on the adjuster.

I have a nice tool (the morgan carbtune) so I trust the results.
Check your tool by hooking all four of the indicators to a single vacuum source, to verify they all read equally over the entire indicating range.

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Offline Tretnine

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Re: Rough idle diagnosis (with video) cb550k 1978
« Reply #11 on: June 01, 2011, 06:28:39 PM »
Lloyd,

I've gone through this motor and done the maintenance on it a number of times and the problem always remains. I've owned it for three years and the carburetors were extremely out of sync when I bought it. I wonder if this could have caused some permanent damage to the engine somewhere.

I recently had the motor apart and had the help of a friend and fellow 550 man to help me look through the lower end when it was apart. My regret is that parts were not measured for tolerances while the cases were apart. I don't know what I would have been looking for in there. I'm good with top end and carbs, but not so good in the case.

It's possible that any one of the pieces of maintenance are incorrectly done. However, I have assumed that one or more is wrong many times, then gone back through and done everything again. I have done this a number of times. I assume that in the dozen times I've done this, that ONE time of fastidiously going through each piece expecting things were wrong, that I did it correctly. The current iteration of maintenance and carb tuning is the best it's ever been. It will idle at 1000, and even below, close to 800, but the lower the idle the worse the noise and operation become. I recently cobbled together a set of 46c carburetors (it had 46a on prior) and it's running slightly better now than it did with the other carburetor rack. The machine was previously running lean, and still may be in idle. (The current mains as stated in the OP are 98s - almost 10% over stock, while the pilots are 42s with only one full turn of the IMS screw extra to compensate)

I'm feeling pretty good about the carburetors, though there may still be room for improvement. They're the best they've ever been. I've done a fair amount of carb balancing, and while the idle will go as low and as stable as it ever has, it still won't keep from the clack. The engine does miss from time to time - could this be a coils problem? I know I have tried 2 different sets of coils on this machine, but both may have been bad.

I just redid the cam chain tensioner again tonight, with no improvement in performance. The screw turns freely and I can feel the cam tensioner 'tension' on the chain as the screw turns.

The compression numbers are in the 105-110 range on my gauge, but I don't trust that gauge with accuracy. It gives consistent readings on all cylinders and they all have new rings and light honing. I feel that the gauge gives consistent, even readings on the cylinders, and while it may read low, it reads consistently. I may need a new compression gauge.

I would be very interested to attach my carburetors to another 550 just to see how they perform.
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Offline Deltarider

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Re: Rough idle diagnosis (with video) cb550k 1978
« Reply #12 on: June 02, 2011, 01:48:22 AM »
Personally I never idle my bike (or any bike at all) at the side stand.
Are you sure your tachometer is accurate? I've seen 550's indicating 1700 rpm (ND) where in fact they idled at 1200.
You should have the bike idle (preferably on the main stand) at a true 1100-1200 and then judge.
But... I don't like that sound at all.
« Last Edit: June 02, 2011, 06:27:37 AM by Deltarider »
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