Author Topic: Is my CB750 engine a K6 or an F?  (Read 7634 times)

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Offline david 750f

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Re: Is my CB750 engine a K6 or an F?
« Reply #25 on: June 10, 2011, 01:15:29 AM »
Retro Rocket,
as far as I understand the F piston, camshaft and cylinder head are unique to the F model.

Slightly higher compression and slightly hotter camshaft. All these parts were later used on the 77 K's.

There should be a 392 part number on the cylinder head and pistons.

Cheers,
David
1976 CB 750F

Offline Retro Rocket

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Re: Is my CB750 engine a K6 or an F?
« Reply #26 on: June 10, 2011, 01:17:25 AM »
Retro Rocket,
as far as I understand the F piston, camshaft and cylinder head are unique to the F model.

Slightly higher compression and slightly hotter camshaft. All these parts were later used on the 77 K's.

There should be a 392 part number on the cylinder head and pistons.

Cheers,
David

Thanks Dave, i am familiar with the pistons and cam but was wondering if the F0 and F1 had the bigger valves as well.?

Mick
750 K2 1000cc
750 F1 970cc
750 Bitsa 900cc
If You can't fix it with a hammer, You've got an electrical problem.

Offline david 750f

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Re: Is my CB750 engine a K6 or an F?
« Reply #27 on: June 10, 2011, 01:35:29 AM »
Mick,
same size valves as all the K models.
1976 CB 750F

Offline Retro Rocket

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Re: Is my CB750 engine a K6 or an F?
« Reply #28 on: June 10, 2011, 01:40:02 AM »
Mick,
same size valves as all the K models.

I thought so, Thanks again Dave.... ;)
750 K2 1000cc
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750 Bitsa 900cc
If You can't fix it with a hammer, You've got an electrical problem.

Offline Terry in Australia

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Re: Is my CB750 engine a K6 or an F?
« Reply #29 on: June 10, 2011, 04:28:26 AM »
Mine is an early F. Build date 1/75 - the first month with engine serial number CB750E-1001954 I can provide pictures for any doubters.

Ha ha, send me a pic Jerry, with that engine number you've somehow got a K0 Sandcast engine there, which would account for the extra "grunt" that you enjoy so much, everyone knows that the K0 and the F2 were the fastest of all the CB750s!

Back to reality for a mo, thanks Guys, I'll go with "Plan B", that'll give me the incentive to rebuild my K6 engine and build an even more wicked-er (is there such a word?) 836cc engine for my K1, using my F1 cases.

We've got a long weekend this weekend (something about the Queen of England having her birthday, apparently?) so apart from an oil cooler kit I'm doing for another member here, I think I'll pull the K6 engine out of the K1 and strip it down, and see what damage I've done to it over the last 5 or 6 years of 120MPH @ 11000 RPM in 3rd gear runs. (who said K6's are under powered Jerry?)

Thanks everyone for your excellent investigative help! Cheers, Terry. ;D


I was feeling sorry for myself because I couldn't afford new bike boots, until I met a man with no legs.

So I said, "Hey mate, you haven't got any bike boots you don't need, do you?"

"Crazy is a very misunderstood term, it's a fine line that some of us can lean over and still keep our balance" (thanks RB550Four)

Offline Retro Rocket

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Re: Is my CB750 engine a K6 or an F?
« Reply #30 on: June 10, 2011, 05:25:12 AM »
Quote
I think I'll pull the K6 engine out of the K1 and strip it down, and see what damage I've done to it over the last 5 or 6 years of 120MPH @ 11000 RPM in 3rd gear runs. (who said K6's are under powered Jerry?)

Do you have a back cut box in that one Terry? Stock clutch.?
750 K2 1000cc
750 F1 970cc
750 Bitsa 900cc
If You can't fix it with a hammer, You've got an electrical problem.

Offline ekpent

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Re: Is my CB750 engine a K6 or an F?
« Reply #31 on: June 10, 2011, 06:14:03 AM »
The 75-76 F engines had slightly lower,different gears ratios in the tranny also as far as differences from K engines.

Offline Terry in Australia

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Re: Is my CB750 engine a K6 or an F?
« Reply #32 on: June 10, 2011, 07:09:19 AM »
Quote
I think I'll pull the K6 engine out of the K1 and strip it down, and see what damage I've done to it over the last 5 or 6 years of 120MPH @ 11000 RPM in 3rd gear runs. (who said K6's are under powered Jerry?)

Do you have a back cut box in that one Terry? Stock clutch.?

G'Day Mick, no, the crank and gearbox are stock, and the clutch has started slipping at high RPM. (it's ok when riding normally though)

I did some horse trading with Hondaman a few years ago and send him the top end of the K6 engine, I didn't need it with the Arias 12.5:1 836cc pistons, JMR stage 3 head and Megacycle 125/75 cam, and all the heavy duty parts to hold it all together.

The "new" 836cc F1 engine will also have the APE crank, another set of new H/D rods, the undercut gearbox and H/D clutch. Should be great fun! Cheers, Terry. ;D
I was feeling sorry for myself because I couldn't afford new bike boots, until I met a man with no legs.

So I said, "Hey mate, you haven't got any bike boots you don't need, do you?"

"Crazy is a very misunderstood term, it's a fine line that some of us can lean over and still keep our balance" (thanks RB550Four)

Offline Terry in Australia

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Re: Is my CB750 engine a K6 or an F?
« Reply #33 on: June 10, 2011, 07:17:20 AM »
The 75-76 F engines had slightly lower,different gears ratios in the tranny also as far as differences from K engines.

Thanks Eric, how's your "American Picking" been going mate, have you found any more bargains lately? Cheers, Terry. ;D
I was feeling sorry for myself because I couldn't afford new bike boots, until I met a man with no legs.

So I said, "Hey mate, you haven't got any bike boots you don't need, do you?"

"Crazy is a very misunderstood term, it's a fine line that some of us can lean over and still keep our balance" (thanks RB550Four)

Offline Jerry Rxman Griffin aka MuthaF'er

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Re: Is my CB750 engine a K6 or an F?
« Reply #34 on: June 10, 2011, 09:45:28 AM »
Terry,

I think the true answer to your engine number lies in the number of digits in your serial number after the CB750E-. You have yet to answer how many digits your serial  number actually contains as it is easy to type in an extra "X". If it is 7 then you have a 76 F engine (may contain thinner rings too as the later models switched to "non -300" rings). If it is 8 then you have a K6 engine. David 750F has the same info I have. Mine is from a Honda parts manual dated 1975 and covers both the 75 & 76 F's. 

Did you place that partsorder? Since you are working in the garage this weekend I could sure use an Kooler King Oil Cooler kit too, you know mate! Hummmm, I'd bet we could work up a deal and it probably wouldn't take you much longer to whip out two  ;) Especially if the other one is coming to the states you could ship them together then Godzilla or one of the 2 members could relay.

Funny you mention K0 sandcast. The 1975 CB750F is referred to by Honda as the K0 Super Sport. Anyone that goes to a Honda dealer for parts needs to advise the young parts counter kid of this designation or he will not be able to find your bike on his parts fiche. Still need the s/n pic? I'm a bit on the lazy side as you know  ;) The numbers got black powder coated over but are apparent to the eye, not so sure how the pic would come out?

On a side note here, it looks like Honda must have dummied down the HO engines fairly early. Here's a link to a low mileage relatively low serial number '71 CB750K built in 7/70 that was just dyno'ed in at only 53 hp. That surprised me. http://rover.ebay.com/rover/0/e11021.m45.l1123/7?euid=5e073550fb114d058865ee381b8fcb84&loc=http%3A%2F%2Fcgi.ebay.com%2Fws%2FeBayISAPI.dll%3FViewItem%26item%3D140562809796%26ssPageName%3DADME%3AB%3ASS%3AUS%3A1123

As of today 3/13/2012 my original owner 75 CB750F has made it through 3 wives, er EX-wives. Free at last.  ;-)

Offline Terry in Australia

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Re: Is my CB750 engine a K6 or an F?
« Reply #35 on: June 10, 2011, 02:54:23 PM »
G'Day Jerry, thanks for that mate, to be honest, I haven't checked my number again as to whether it's 7 or 8 digits, I'll do that today, and report back to you.

The horsepower thing is no real mystery mate, Honda quoted 67 BHP for all CB750's except the F2/F3, which was 71, but that's BHP measured at the crank.

They used an engine dyno with just an engine strapped into it back then, to get impressive figures like that, but nowadays we use rear wheel dyno's, that tell us how much BHP and torque we're pumping out at the rear wheel.

51 BHP at the rear wheel is actually quite good mate, I've seen dyno cards for CB750's with under 50. Normally 20-30% loss of BHP through the drive train is about right, so when you've got guys here who are getting 80+ BHP at the rear wheel on their hot rod 836's, 900's etc, you can get an indication of just how much a set of bigger pistons, bigger valves and better ports, and a high lift cam can change the standard engine from "Ho Hum", to "Holy Shiit!".

I did a few "bolt on" mods to my Triumph Rocket III to elicit another 20 BHP at the rear wheel, (141 now, and 147 foot pounds of torque) it's so easy with modern bikes, just swap out the exhaust system, add a new ignition map and install a higher flow filter and it's done, but of course being such a big engine helps, there's a CB750 hiding in each of the Rocket's 3 cylinders!

You want a cooler kit mate? I think we can do that, I haven't ordered those parts yet as I'm waiting on the bill for the blasting and powder coating, so maybe I could send you a smallish shopping list for CB750 Supply and you could order it for me in exchange for a complete cooler kit? I suppose you'll be wanting braided stainless lines with fancy AN fittings too?  Let me know mate, and I'll get it done! ;D
« Last Edit: June 10, 2011, 03:25:10 PM by Terry in Australia »
I was feeling sorry for myself because I couldn't afford new bike boots, until I met a man with no legs.

So I said, "Hey mate, you haven't got any bike boots you don't need, do you?"

"Crazy is a very misunderstood term, it's a fine line that some of us can lean over and still keep our balance" (thanks RB550Four)

Offline Jerry Rxman Griffin aka MuthaF'er

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Re: Is my CB750 engine a K6 or an F?
« Reply #36 on: June 10, 2011, 10:47:39 PM »
Didn't realize the old figures were at the engine.

Yeah, let me know what you're looking into. I'll have to figure out a mounting system due to the electrical connection box at the front. Frame is done with Gordon mods and powder coat so I don't want to start any hacking and welding. 
As of today 3/13/2012 my original owner 75 CB750F has made it through 3 wives, er EX-wives. Free at last.  ;-)

Offline Terry in Australia

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Re: Is my CB750 engine a K6 or an F?
« Reply #37 on: June 11, 2011, 02:01:10 AM »
Yeah, that electrical box is a pain in the butt, they got rid of it by the time the F2 came along, can you move the wiring up into the headlight shell? You could always use an F2 wiring harness and dump that stupid box completely? Let me know mate! Oh, I checked the engine number, it's definitely an F1. Cheers, Terry. ;D
I was feeling sorry for myself because I couldn't afford new bike boots, until I met a man with no legs.

So I said, "Hey mate, you haven't got any bike boots you don't need, do you?"

"Crazy is a very misunderstood term, it's a fine line that some of us can lean over and still keep our balance" (thanks RB550Four)

Offline Jerry Rxman Griffin aka MuthaF'er

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Re: Is my CB750 engine a K6 or an F?
« Reply #38 on: June 11, 2011, 08:59:41 AM »
Now that you'd ID'ed it and since I have my parts fiche in front of me, you've lucked out  ;) The rings didn't go to the smaller size until engine # 2551568. You still use the -300 rings.

It took me MANY years to find and acquire a NOS wiring harness and now you want me to hack it up?! I refuse because I'm a stubborn bastard!  ;) I do have 2 old ones I could play with but I'm trying to put a NOS bike back together with a serious engine. A F2 harness might be a great answer. Now to find a NOS F2 harness. On the shelf next to the hens teeth lol. Guess I could always use the Kooler King on that K4until I get a F2 harness!

Anyone tried to fit a F2/F3 harness to a F/F1? Wonder if there are any REAL differences?!     
As of today 3/13/2012 my original owner 75 CB750F has made it through 3 wives, er EX-wives. Free at last.  ;-)

Offline Terry in Australia

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Re: Is my CB750 engine a K6 or an F?
« Reply #39 on: June 11, 2011, 02:46:28 PM »
I think most of the F1/F2 items are interchangeable Jerry (lights, blinkers, gauges, ignition switch, switchblocks etc) so I don't see why an F2 harness won't sort out that silly electrics box. I know CB750 Supply sell aftermarket harnesses, (I'll be buying one for my K6) but I haven't checked to see if they do one for an F2.

You better get it sorted though mate, with that hot new engine, you're gonna need a cooler! Cheers, Terry. ;D
I was feeling sorry for myself because I couldn't afford new bike boots, until I met a man with no legs.

So I said, "Hey mate, you haven't got any bike boots you don't need, do you?"

"Crazy is a very misunderstood term, it's a fine line that some of us can lean over and still keep our balance" (thanks RB550Four)

Offline luchacafe

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Re: Is my CB750 engine a K6 or an F?
« Reply #40 on: November 28, 2011, 12:54:01 PM »
I picked up a 76 k with an engine that my guess is a 78 f, it has a 7 digit number of CBE750E 310xxx, is this an F? If so, is it an F1? Thanks for any help

Offline Jerry Rxman Griffin aka MuthaF'er

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Re: Is my CB750 engine a K6 or an F?
« Reply #41 on: November 28, 2011, 07:06:23 PM »
Without having the list in front of me I can definitely tell you it is NOT a F/F1 as they started out as CB750E-250xxxxx in 75 up to about 2554xxx at the end of the 76 model year. I THINK you do have a F3 engine.

Update - Now that I have my shop manual out I can tell you that the K7 engine started at CB750E-2700001, the K8 at CB750E-3000001, the F2 at CB750E-2600004 and the F3, it states, at CB750E-2200001 with the frame at CB750F-3100002. I hadn't noticed the F3 with a lower number previously?? I have found errors in this Honda shop manual so..... I'd speculate that if your engine is silver, vs factory black on the F2/F3, with that number then you have a K8 engine which is derived from and almost identical to the F/F1 but with only a couple minor changes.
« Last Edit: November 28, 2011, 07:19:44 PM by Jerry Rxman Griffin »
As of today 3/13/2012 my original owner 75 CB750F has made it through 3 wives, er EX-wives. Free at last.  ;-)

Offline luchacafe

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Re: Is my CB750 engine a K6 or an F?
« Reply #42 on: November 28, 2011, 09:19:56 PM »
Thanks for the help, it is factory black, That's a good thing right? the 78 f series has the redesigned "better" head, so it looks like I have a 78 f3.

Offline Danno

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Re: Is my CB750 engine a K6 or an F?
« Reply #43 on: November 28, 2011, 10:16:57 PM »
same numbers I have on the F my friend just picked up for me to restore
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Offline Jerry Rxman Griffin aka MuthaF'er

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Re: Is my CB750 engine a K6 or an F?
« Reply #44 on: November 28, 2011, 11:18:48 PM »
The only thing "better" about the F2/F3 head is also the cause of it's problems. Honda tried their best at the time to do a final upgrade to the old engine's HP before they brought out the DOHC engine. They went with larger intake and exhaust valves to extract the additional horsepower plus stronger springs. In order to use both larger intakes AND exhausts vs just going with just larger intakes which is all that is really needed and has been done ever since when, they had to redesign the head's chamber area so the larger valves wouldn't hit one another. How'd they do this? They changed the valve angle. What did this cause? Excessive stress on the valve guides in basically the same head and cam shaft holders which leads to premature wear. What do we do now to make more head HP in non-F2/F3 engines? We use larger intakes only with porting and don't worry about valve contact. Mainly 33.5mm for the simpler/less expensive improvement. Or if you have more money than common sense dictates  ;) we/I use the stainless Kibblewhite 34mm intake and stock size exhaust that have smaller diameter lighter weight shafts with porting, etc. I will admit that I paid a few hundred dollars more for my recent head work than I did for my bike new. If I were to acquire a F2/F3 that seemed to have issues I'd probably send the head off to Big Jay at APE and have him rebuild it properly for the less expensive alternative. If I wanted to also make it flow better I'd send it to Mike Rieck. Big Jay does some porting and I do not know how his work compares to Mike's but I do know it doesn't get any better than Mike.   
As of today 3/13/2012 my original owner 75 CB750F has made it through 3 wives, er EX-wives. Free at last.  ;-)

Offline mrbreeze

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Re: Is my CB750 engine a K6 or an F?
« Reply #45 on: November 28, 2011, 11:50:31 PM »


The day that Terry doesn't know what engine he has, is the day that this entire forum implodes... ;) ;)
I might havta use that on my avatar thingy somewhere!!!!!
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Re: Is my CB750 engine a K6 or an F?
« Reply #46 on: January 03, 2012, 12:51:35 AM »
Thanks for the help, it is factory black, That's a good thing right? the 78 f series has the redesigned "better" head, so it looks like I have a 78 f3.

Slight threadjack here (sorry) hey luchacafe - you need to empty your PM inbox - been trying to contact you regarding the rearset drawings.

Offline fire113

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Re: Is my CB750 engine a K6 or an F?
« Reply #47 on: January 03, 2012, 04:14:09 AM »
Quote
It appears that Terry has an early 1976 CB750F motor.

Looks like Terry and I have F1 engines........Thanks.... ;)

So what are the differences between  our F1's and the K model engines.?

Hi Retro Rocket,

...the crank is different , the rods, the pistons and the head.

Hi Terry, I think that I have an K6 engine, will take a look at the engine number when I am @home from work.

Have a good one...Georg
Honda CB750 K0 & K0 & K1 & K1 & K2 & K2 & K6

Offline fire113

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Re: Is my CB750 engine a K6 or an F?
« Reply #48 on: January 03, 2012, 11:42:36 AM »
Hi Terry,

...back from work and just checked my engine number.
It is one of the very last K5--> 2428531 and K6 starts at 2428762 to 2700000.


Have a good one...Georg
Honda CB750 K0 & K0 & K1 & K1 & K2 & K2 & K6

Offline Terry in Australia

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Re: Is my CB750 engine a K6 or an F?
« Reply #49 on: January 03, 2012, 01:57:44 PM »
Hi Terry,

...back from work and just checked my engine number.
It is one of the very last K5--> 2428531 and K6 starts at 2428762 to 2700000.


Have a good one...Georg

Thanks Georg, that'll be a big help mate, Prost! ;D
I was feeling sorry for myself because I couldn't afford new bike boots, until I met a man with no legs.

So I said, "Hey mate, you haven't got any bike boots you don't need, do you?"

"Crazy is a very misunderstood term, it's a fine line that some of us can lean over and still keep our balance" (thanks RB550Four)