Author Topic: ss brake lines cb550 straight into caliper  (Read 16225 times)

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Offline TwoTired

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Re: ss brake lines cb550 straight into caliper
« Reply #25 on: June 14, 2011, 02:37:27 AM »
Honda uses a flex line from the master cylinder to the lower pressure switch block so if the rigid line offered something useful they would have used one here.
Sorry, can't agree with that.  And I believe this to be unsupported speculation.  The handlebars can rotate in the mounts and this would be much harder to do incorporating a hard line to the master.  Further, routine fork maintenance would stress any hard line to the master when the bars are displaced.
There is a functional need for the hard line at the caliper; (so the caliper can release without hydraulic line bias forces).  Certainly not the case at the master.

I do like SS lines over the rubber type.  But, much of the SS lines are not DOT approved.  DOT approval requires the lines be pressure tested before sales.  What this means is that SS lines sold without DOT approval, may not have been pressure tested.  Technically they are illegal for highway use.  Though I know of no enforcement action.  The pressure test is therefore left to the end user.  What I do is, after the system is bleed and there is a hard lever, use two hands to squeeze the lever with all your might, creating peak pressure.  If the system can withstand that pressure it is very unlikely to fail when using just one hand.

The other foible that SS lines can have is breakdown of the inner pressure core.  Usually this is made of polypropylene, I think (haven't verified the type of plastic).  Anyway, this is what gives the line its resistance to distortion under pressure.  However, the plastic is susceptible to breakdown should UV light get to it.  If so, it gets brittle and can fail catastrophically under high pressure conditions, such as emergency braking.  The steel braid is an excellent UV blocker,  but you must ensure there is no fraying or chafing of the jacketing.

As I said I do much prefer the SS lines to the rubber ones.  But, when you change a design with different materials, it is best to fully understand the new materials you've chosen, to get best utilization.

Cheers,
Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
72 500, 74 550, 75 550K, 75 550F, 76 550F, 77 550F X2, 78 550K, 77 750F X2, 78 750F, 79CX500, 85 700SC, GL1100

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Offline xsmooth69x

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Re: ss brake lines cb550 straight into caliper
« Reply #26 on: June 14, 2011, 03:19:14 AM »

This site is down right now, and may be the same vendor as your ebay seller...but I believe this guy is also on the forum and his stuff looks pretty nice. I would give it a look.

http://slingshot-cycles.com/index.php?main_page=down_for_maintenance

im sure its not the same person. if you read the thread they compare slingshots lines to this person regarding priceing
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first motorcycle ever!!! ow and i dont know how to ride it either :D

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Offline socalenduro

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Re: ss brake lines cb550 straight into caliper
« Reply #27 on: June 14, 2011, 07:20:39 AM »
Without the grommet and it's support from the fender brace, the hard line will eventually fail. 

meaning with no fender your saying you are BETTER off WITHOUT the hard line?

others opinions?

Offline neverendingproject

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Re: ss brake lines cb550 straight into caliper
« Reply #28 on: June 14, 2011, 08:32:53 AM »
It's more than just pressure testing. There are other requirements not the least of which is the ability to pass the whip test.

http://www.fmcsa.dot.gov/rules-regulations/administration/fmcsr/fmcsrruletext.aspx?reg=571.106
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Offline TwoTired

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Re: ss brake lines cb550 straight into caliper
« Reply #29 on: June 14, 2011, 12:23:12 PM »
My SS line is DOT approved. They are also pressure checked using glycol.

http://www.classic-cycle.ca/index.php?pr=Braided_Steel_Brake_Lines

You may want to try this guy as he is also into the aerospace industry. I am very happy with the custom work he provides plus his stuff works fine.
Lots of assumptions here by TT which I think the link should clear up.

RT
That's a good link.  Thanks for that.
When I went looking for SS replacements that included the hard line.  I couldn't find one that was DOT approved in the length I needed with the correct fittings.  So, I did the testing myself with locally made lines.

It's more than just pressure testing. There are other requirements not the least of which is the ability to pass the whip test.

http://www.fmcsa.dot.gov/rules-regulations/administration/fmcsr/fmcsrruletext.aspx?reg=571.106

That's an even better link!
Thanks!
Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
72 500, 74 550, 75 550K, 75 550F, 76 550F, 77 550F X2, 78 550K, 77 750F X2, 78 750F, 79CX500, 85 700SC, GL1100

Those that learn from history are doomed to repeat it by those that don't learn from history.

Offline MCRider

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Re: ss brake lines cb550 straight into caliper
« Reply #30 on: June 14, 2011, 12:50:36 PM »
Without disputing any of the engineering arguments pro or con, I'll just say the dust bins of time are full of those hardlines, including any I have ever come across and my brakes have always worked fine.

I'd be curious to know if all those who have complained here about dragging brakes, and there's been many, had the hard line, or flexible, straight in lines? That's pure spec though, so no conclusion.

If you're going for a stock look I'd say you'd want to keep them. They will take a bit of a shine if you polish them.
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Offline s7paul

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Re: ss brake lines cb550 straight into caliper
« Reply #31 on: June 14, 2011, 02:17:02 PM »
My 500 has a single braided hose taking the place of the standard solid pipe & rubber hose, with no ill effects as far as I'm aware.  I wanted to replace the rubber hose anyway, as these brakes need all the help they can get, and just thought that by having a single hose I was eliminating one of the joints (which has to be a good thing).

Offline betterthanurs916

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Re: ss brake lines cb550 straight into caliper
« Reply #32 on: June 14, 2011, 06:43:43 PM »
7 inches of hard line vs 2 feet of soft? Back in the day, braided SS lines were only used in aviation; it would have been prohibitively expensive to be used on mass production motorcycles. Those of us that openly embrace advances in technology are free to improve the performance of our vintage machines, while those that believe that a 40 year old design can't be improved on are locked in the past. I can appreciate a pure stock bike, and admire the determination required to maintain one in full working order and appearance, but even Honda determined the original braking system could not compete with the other manufacturer's offerings as early as the late '70's. While the dual disc Kawi's were available off the show-room floor, the dyed-in-the-wool Honda guys were forced to do conversions using stock parts.   

I don't understand why you're trying to disagree with me when what you said kind of directly agrees what I suggested in my post? Re-read it and let me know.

Stock- rubber hose + hard line
My suggestion- keep the stock hard line and replace the rubber with braided hose--this is both the easiest solution and the one least prone to hydraulic hysterisis, flex, whatever quantification works for you.

Sure you could run a braided cable all the way down from the master to the caliper (which is what I think you're suggesting), but it would be a custom order, you would have to figure out how to make the brake switch work, and it would theoretically be slightly more susceptible to flexing under pressure...although inappreciably so.

Unless, of course, you are suggesting that braided stainless has more repeatable hysterisis characteristics than hard line...in which case I would love to see some test data proving so.  In the event that you find some, I will surrender to the reality of being locked in the past with my asinine statements and antiquated concepts.
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Online scottly

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Re: ss brake lines cb550 straight into caliper
« Reply #33 on: June 14, 2011, 07:08:45 PM »
I don't understand why you're trying to disagree with me when what you said kind of directly agrees what I suggested in my post? Re-read it and let me know.



Sure you could run a braided cable all the way down from the master to the caliper (which is what I think you're suggesting),
I never suggested that, I was only trying to point out that the rigid tube is not of any advantage, as well as dispute another member's repeated statements that Honda's designs could not be improved upon. ;)
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Re: ss brake lines cb550 straight into caliper
« Reply #34 on: June 15, 2011, 02:02:12 AM »


Pretty simple mechanical physics, really.
The capture grommet is a very loose connection which behaves as a pivot or fulcrum, and is well behind the actual caliper arm pivot.  None of the arm deflective moments are very great at that point, so the arm and hard line both pivot freely, so as not to interfere with caliper centering.

It is the real world where a flexible line attached to the caliper body applies more side force to the caliper than the hard line properly routed.  It's pretty clear that Honda engineers had more training and knowledge about this, than home brew modifiers.

You can demonstrate this to yourself.  Hold a yardstick in your hand, and place a 1 pound object on the end of it.  The force applied to your hand is three foot pounds.  Put the one pound weight at the one foot mark away from your hand.  Now you are only lifting 1 foot pound and you will find it much easier to hold the weight up.  With the weight or force farther away, it takes more force to effect movement or deflection farther away, given the same force applied.  If you have ever operated a simple lever, you have already experienced these physics.

The fulcrum when a biased or under tension brake line is attached directly to the caliper, is applied at the caliper fitting.  SS brake lines, while flexible, do have a reflexive memory.  Go ahead, bend one.  It won't stay exactly at the new position you put it in, unless you fasten it there.  In fact, its reflexive memory is far greater than the caliper seal retraction effort, and possibly the adjuster spring, depending on how the line is routed.

Just like the weight at the end of the arm was magnified at your hand (fulcrum) by moving the force farther away from the fulcrum, the hard line attachment distance from the caliper makes it easier to pivot at the grommet location. The Calipers retraction or movement force is magnified by the distance or lever arm of the hard line at the grommet/stay.

The analysis only applies to lateral movement of the caliper.  The vertical and longitudinal axis is constrained pretty tightly by the caliper pivot arm.

It occurs to me that some may not understand the proper hard line installation procedure.  With the hard line properly routed, the hard line length touches nothing but the end points, and the fitting at the fender stay would float within that stay centered in the wire loop without the grommet installed.  All the grommet does is eliminate chafing under G loads while driving.  If the line is not deform from the shape given by the factory, it will all stay in alignment when reinstalled.  However, if an untrained mechanic bends the hard line out of ignorance, then of course the system can't work as designed.

As XS correctly pointed out, when the lines come under pressure they move as the forces distribute along the length of the line.  The fender stay helps to keep that movement from affecting the caliper.  However, during caliper actuation, these forces are really insignificant.  It is the caliper release and drag prevention that the original design dealt with effectively.

Cheers,



yeah dude,you didnt know that?
[/quote]

Offline xsmooth69x

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Re: ss brake lines cb550 straight into caliper
« Reply #35 on: June 15, 2011, 04:38:32 AM »
Quote
you would have to figure out how to make the brake switch work

It's already been figured into the banjo fitting.



where did you get that!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

wait wait wait...... this is a good idea too^

is this what you mean by using the piece in the image?

what is the point of the tri block that merges the 2 lines and used the 3 port just for the brake switch? did honda do this because the didnt have the technology of the piece above?

does that tri blocks soul purpose is just to split the lines up to activate the brake light?

if the tri block is only there for that can i do something like picture 2? run a single brake line eliminate the tri block using the banjo switch thing and still use the hard like that is connected to the fender?
1975 CB550 (FINISHED?!?!?)
first motorcycle ever!!! ow and i dont know how to ride it either :D

raw rust rice venti quad shot cafe racing latte project aka my build..... http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=88853.0

black and white equation godzilla chalkboard 
1972 cb750 - next in line for some <3

Offline myoldcb200

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Re: ss brake lines cb550 straight into caliper
« Reply #36 on: June 16, 2011, 02:35:56 PM »
If that switch is in fact a bango bolt? I do not see why you could not do that. But I personaly do not think I would just because of the extra wires RITE THERE in your face hanging down. I supose you could rout them threw the handlebar. Might look cool idk
The bike I am working on is --->1974 cb750 k4

Offline xsmooth69x

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Re: ss brake lines cb550 straight into caliper
« Reply #37 on: June 16, 2011, 02:40:54 PM »
what extra wire?  :o if you talking about the banjo with the switch wire on the handle bars that will be feed into the handle and routed through the bike
1975 CB550 (FINISHED?!?!?)
first motorcycle ever!!! ow and i dont know how to ride it either :D

raw rust rice venti quad shot cafe racing latte project aka my build..... http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=88853.0

black and white equation godzilla chalkboard 
1972 cb750 - next in line for some <3

Offline socalenduro

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Re: ss brake lines cb550 straight into caliper
« Reply #38 on: June 16, 2011, 08:51:19 PM »
if your not worried about stock... alot of MC have the switch built right in...
i just got one of ebay for 62 bucks shipped... this model being specifically recommended after being used by another forum member.

Offline xsmooth69x

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Re: ss brake lines cb550 straight into caliper
« Reply #39 on: June 18, 2011, 06:08:44 PM »
ya i want to keep the stock metal circle reservoir and not a plastic square one.
1975 CB550 (FINISHED?!?!?)
first motorcycle ever!!! ow and i dont know how to ride it either :D

raw rust rice venti quad shot cafe racing latte project aka my build..... http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=88853.0

black and white equation godzilla chalkboard 
1972 cb750 - next in line for some <3

bollingball

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Re: ss brake lines cb550 straight into caliper
« Reply #40 on: June 18, 2011, 06:22:59 PM »
XS it looks like what you want is how my stock 750K8 is set up but with a SS hose instead of the rubber one. Maybe you could get a 78 MC with built in SW. new SS hose down to the metal line. pull up a parts fiche for a K8 to see what I am talking about.

               Ken

Offline xsmooth69x

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Re: ss brake lines cb550 straight into caliper
« Reply #41 on: June 19, 2011, 02:21:59 AM »
XS it looks like what you want is how my stock 750K8 is set up but with a SS hose instead of the rubber one. Maybe you could get a 78 MC with built in SW. new SS hose down to the metal line. pull up a parts fiche for a K8 to see what I am talking about.

               Ken

ya but i dont want to buy a whole MC.... i just bought a rebuild kit for mine  :(

i might just get that banjo switch and run a single line.

is there any one else that can confirm the only reason for the tri block is just for the switch?
1975 CB550 (FINISHED?!?!?)
first motorcycle ever!!! ow and i dont know how to ride it either :D

raw rust rice venti quad shot cafe racing latte project aka my build..... http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=88853.0

black and white equation godzilla chalkboard 
1972 cb750 - next in line for some <3

Offline Pjm911

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Re: ss brake lines cb550 straight into caliper
« Reply #42 on: April 17, 2014, 09:55:31 PM »
Anyone have current information on SS lines for the cb550? The links in this old thread to providers aren't working.
Thanks,

pjm911

Offline Whaleman

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Re: ss brake lines cb550 straight into caliper
« Reply #43 on: April 18, 2014, 05:05:43 AM »
It works fine. Dan

Offline davegoround

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Re: ss brake lines cb550 straight into caliper
« Reply #44 on: December 21, 2017, 04:26:26 PM »
I can't seem to find the post with the ebay reseller for these cb550 hard lines!

Can someone re-link that conversation or the seller?

Thanks!

Offline Stev-o

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Re: ss brake lines cb550 straight into caliper
« Reply #45 on: December 21, 2017, 06:19:09 PM »
I can't seem to find the post with the ebay reseller for these cb550 hard lines!

Can someone re-link that conversation or the seller?

Thanks!

Seems slingshot's website is down again.   I've bought from him and Apex too. 
'74 "Big Bang" Honda 750K [836].....'76 Honda 550F.....K3 Park Racer!......and a Bomber!............plus plus plus.........