Author Topic: point ignition swap out to Pamco electronic-advice please  (Read 3845 times)

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Offline alabama1971

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point ignition swap out to Pamco electronic-advice please
« on: October 20, 2011, 06:48:58 PM »
Im considering swapping out points on 71 cb750 to Pamco electronic ignition basic unit keeping existing coils/wires
Any input from someone using these with stock coils or should i get the package with upgraded coils
thanks

Offline Danno

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Re: point ignition swap out to Pamco electronic-advice please
« Reply #1 on: October 20, 2011, 07:22:13 PM »
if the old coils are working well why go to the expense of new ones that may have to run a resister to use and will draw too many amps for the old charging circuit to keep up with I personally believe highly in the hondaman ignition you only have to set the pionts once and you don't need to run any more condensers and you have the added bonus of being able to switch back on the road if you ever have a failure and I have heard that pamco does not respond well to warranty issues
when you own a motorcycle the wife does not have to find you handy she just has to find you

Offline alabama1971

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Re: point ignition swap out to Pamco electronic-advice please
« Reply #2 on: October 20, 2011, 07:35:27 PM »
Thank you Danno thats the kind of input im looking for!
be safe!

Offline Danno

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Re: point ignition swap out to Pamco electronic-advice please
« Reply #3 on: October 20, 2011, 08:23:39 PM »
either way you go i wish you enjoyment in your riding
when you own a motorcycle the wife does not have to find you handy she just has to find you

Offline Retro Rocket

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Re: point ignition swap out to Pamco electronic-advice please
« Reply #4 on: October 20, 2011, 10:31:29 PM »
Quote
and I have heard that pamco does not respond well to warranty issues

Where did you here that..?
Why don't you ask him in person, he's a member here and his help and advice have been first rate.....

Look up Pamcopete
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Re: point ignition swap out to Pamco electronic-advice please
« Reply #5 on: October 21, 2011, 04:24:43 AM »
if the old coils are working well why go to the expense of new ones that may have to run a resister to use and will draw too many amps for the old charging circuit to keep up with I personally believe highly in the hondaman ignition you only have to set the pionts once and you don't need to run any more condensers and you have the added bonus of being able to switch back on the road if you ever have a failure and I have heard that pamco does not respond well to warranty issues

Can you be more specific? Is there a particular person that has complained of poor warranty service? If so, then please ask that person to post his complaint here so we can all see it.

Also, if you use the new coils that come with the kit you do not have to use resistors and the coils do not use more current than the stock coils, so, where did you get that information from?

Stock coils 4.5 Ohm with 180 degree dwell = 12.5/4.5 * 50% = 1.38 Amps
17-6903 coils 2.8 Ohms with 120 degree dwell = 11.5/2.8 * 33% = 1.35 Amps

I use 11.5 volts for the PAMCO because there is a 1 volt drop across the transistor.

When calculating the current for a coil, you have to take into consideration the effect of the dwell angle because the coil is only on for that period. So, in the case of points with a 180 degree dwell angle the coil is only on for 180/360 = 50% of the time. Using the dwell angle on time gives you the average current flow to the coil which is the effective current flow as far as the charging system and battery is concerned.

During the time that the coil is on and drawing current, the stock coil draws 12.5/4.5 = 2.7 Amps. The 17-6903 coil draws 11.5/2.8 = 4.1 Amps so the magnetic field in the 17-6903 coil will be almost twice the magnetic field of the stock coil. However, the battery and charging system will only be affected by the average current, so you end up with a better spark with no impact on the charging system.

The PAMCO uses a 120 degree dwell angle so the coil is only on for 120/360 = 33% of the time. Some will jump in here and say that the shorter dwell angle of the PAMCO means that the coil output will not be as good as a 180 degree dwell but you have to take into consideration the fact that an electronic ignition system produces a faster rise time because it does not use a condenser. Test have shown that an electronic ignition system, not just the PAMCO will produce up to 50% higher voltage at the plugs than a points system driving the same coil, so you can reduce the dwell angle without sacrificing the spark voltage and end up with a more efficient ignition system and cooler running coils. This is true for any electronic ignition system, not just the PAMCO.


CB750 Points
PAMCO and stock coil
PAMCO 3/4" gap
Note: The video frame rate will sometimes miss a visible spark, but the sound of the spark is consistent.

Conclusion: 1. Points with a 180 degree dwell, 1/2 inch spark gap.
                   2. PAMCO with 120 degree dwell, 3/4" spark gap
                   3. PAMCO produces a 50% greater spark with the same coil.
                   4. PAMCO uses the same current for a 50% increase in spark.
                   5. The 120 degree dwell of the PAMCO results in a cooler running coil because the coil is on for only 33% of the time vs 50% of the time for points.

What's the importance of a cooler running coil?

1. Longer life for the coil.
2. Less increase in primary resistance due to the increase in resistance caused by temperature.

Additional notes:

Using a points booster with a high performance coil that has a lower primary resistance will result in a higher average current because the points booster still uses the stock points cam that has a 180 degree dwell.

Points booster with a 180 degree dwell and a 2.8 Ohm coil:

11.5/2.8 * 50% = 2.08 Amps

I use 11.5 for the voltage because a points booster circuit also uses a transistor to drive the coil.

Even more notes:

The actual dwell angle for the CB750 is 190 degrees which results in a 190/360 = 52% on time or duty cycle so the conclusions above would be even more favorable for an electronic ignition compared to a points system with a 190 degree dwell.
« Last Edit: October 21, 2011, 06:02:19 AM by pamcopete »

Offline CB750K4

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Re: point ignition swap out to Pamco electronic-advice please
« Reply #6 on: October 21, 2011, 07:18:37 AM »
I installed the Pamco ignition on my K4 late this summer.  I used my original coils. I have only about 300 miles on it so far, so cannot comment on it's long term reliability.  But, I am very happy with the results.  Easier starts, smoother idle and more power on the road.  I'm sure that most of that is due to better, more consistent timing.
CB750 K4  (original owner)

Offline Spanner 1

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Re: point ignition swap out to Pamco electronic-advice please
« Reply #7 on: October 21, 2011, 07:47:47 PM »
With respect CB 750K4... the results you mention are just usual results from tune-up procedures that are routine on our bikes, especially if you missed a tune-up or didn't know when the last one was done  ;)...... or install an electronic ignition !!

Offline scottly

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Re: point ignition swap out to Pamco electronic-advice please
« Reply #8 on: October 21, 2011, 08:33:05 PM »
The difference with electronic is it stays that way, 3000 miles, 6000 miles, 9000 miles, 12,000 miles. After a while, you don't bother checking anymore... ;)
Helmets save brains. Always wear one and ride like everyone is trying to kill you....

Offline Spanner 1

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Re: point ignition swap out to Pamco electronic-advice please
« Reply #9 on: October 21, 2011, 10:04:03 PM »
Agreed!..... if you can't stand to deal with your points for less than 3000 miles then get an electronic ignition.... claims of 'bigger spark', less coil 'wear' etc are very dubious at least and I wish aftermarket guys would not make them, unless they can prove increase HP over stock ( no showable need for their product otherwise IMO )... Tech. stuff posted does not show advantage over 40+ year reliability of stock ignition. Only possible advantage = 'I don't want to mess with points ever again '... great, that's 1 item off the necessary ( very ) maintenance list on your 30-40 yr. old bike  :D

Offline scottly

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Re: point ignition swap out to Pamco electronic-advice please
« Reply #10 on: October 21, 2011, 10:22:24 PM »
Only possible advantage = 'I don't want to mess with points ever again '... great, that's 1 item off the necessary ( very ) maintenance list on your 30-40 yr. old bike  :D
That's one very big item off the maintenance list, IMHO. ;D
Helmets save brains. Always wear one and ride like everyone is trying to kill you....

Offline Retro Rocket

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Re: point ignition swap out to Pamco electronic-advice please
« Reply #11 on: October 21, 2011, 11:12:14 PM »
Agreed!..... if you can't stand to deal with your points for less than 3000 miles then get an electronic ignition.... claims of 'bigger spark', less coil 'wear' etc are very dubious at least and I wish aftermarket guys would not make them, unless they can prove increase HP over stock ( no showable need for their product otherwise IMO )... Tech. stuff posted does not show advantage over 40+ year reliability of stock ignition. Only possible advantage = 'I don't want to mess with points ever again '... great, that's 1 item off the necessary ( very ) maintenance list on your 30-40 yr. old bike  :D

You blokes should give it a rest, every time Peter posts someone has to #$%* things up with this type of crap.... :o ::)   He has made a good product, his back up service seems great and he always answers questions thoroughly. I could go back and find this rubbish just about every where Peter posts about his product, if you don't like it then don't comment, it adds nothing to the conversation at all..... >:(
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750 F1 970cc
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If You can't fix it with a hammer, You've got an electrical problem.

Offline Spanner 1

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Re: point ignition swap out to Pamco electronic-advice please
« Reply #12 on: October 21, 2011, 11:28:17 PM »
Well 'Pete' seems to lack confidence in his product if he has to respond to a question with a diatribe of tech. and videos of a big fat spark !... what does that prove ??...  Look, get over it, any aftermarket ignition 'upgrade' is for convenience only... fine... market it that way... anything else is smoke and mirrors. ::) Same with HM's 'upgrade', it's a 'points saver' devise. If you WANT electronics under your hot, hot, hot points cover instead of mechanical points then more luck to ya.
I'm not dissin' P. Pete or any other electronic ign., but will always ask why it's necessary except as a fashion item.

Offline Retro Rocket

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Re: point ignition swap out to Pamco electronic-advice please
« Reply #13 on: October 22, 2011, 01:54:05 AM »
Quote
Well 'Pete' seems to lack confidence in his product if he has to respond to a question with a diatribe of tech.

Spanner, thats your opinion and really, no one gives a damn. Take your own advice and get over it yourself, your  opinion has already been heard on this topic. Others could and do see Peter's posts as extremely informative and helpful, you on the other hand don't like it and think its unnecessary, just like your reply's, completely unnecessary. Peter is also a contributor to this forum financially and if he decides to go because of you stupid bastards that have nothing better to do than put #$%* on his product then i have absolutely no understanding of why you are here in the first place....
« Last Edit: October 22, 2011, 03:18:01 AM by Retro Rocket »
750 K2 1000cc
750 F1 970cc
750 Bitsa 900cc
If You can't fix it with a hammer, You've got an electrical problem.

Offline Scott S

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Re: point ignition swap out to Pamco electronic-advice please
« Reply #14 on: October 22, 2011, 05:47:02 AM »
Tech. stuff posted does not show advantage over 40+ year reliability of stock ignition. Only possible advantage = 'I don't want to mess with points ever again '...

 And that's why Honda and every other car and bike manufacturer stopped using points, oh, thirty something years ago.
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Offline Scott S

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Re: point ignition swap out to Pamco electronic-advice please
« Reply #15 on: October 22, 2011, 05:50:54 AM »
Well 'Pete' seems to lack confidence in his product if he has to respond to a question with a diatribe of tech. and videos of a big fat spark !... what does that prove ??...  If you WANT electronics under your hot, hot, hot points cover instead of mechanical points then more luck to ya.

 Because if he just showed up one day and said "Hi, I offer a nice new product for your bike, it's less expensive than most of the competition and I'll stand behind it personally", he'd be hit with page after page, post ofter post of "Prove it!".

 Oh...wait....that's EXACTLY what happened and exactly what he's done.

 The points plate on my SOHC doesn't get nearly as hot as the head on my XS650, both of which have a Pamco. There are literally thousands of XS's out there running the Pamco.
'71 CB 500 w/ CB650 engine
'78 CB550K
'75 Yamaha XS650
'87 Yamaha Radian
 and too many projects...

Offline Spanner 1

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Re: point ignition swap out to Pamco electronic-advice please
« Reply #16 on: October 22, 2011, 07:17:35 AM »
Retro, you have PLENTY of VERY opinionated posts on this Forum on plenty of subjects, but now that I'm admonished for expressing mine I suppose I have to shut up. I don't expect anyone to make any decisions about ignitions based on any remarks by me.......... look at the facts and do whatever you want, no advise intended from me ;D

Offline CB750K4

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Re: point ignition swap out to Pamco electronic-advice please
« Reply #17 on: October 22, 2011, 07:47:30 AM »
Points do fail.  Condensers do fail.  When either of these fails, the ignition system associated with them is done.
Also, with a points ignition, you KNOW that the gap and timing that you just so carefully adjusted is drifting from the moment that you start to ride.
In my opinion, the Pamco and other electronic ignitions, have much less chance of failing.  And, until that remote failure happens, you set it and forget it.
I may be completely wrong.  But I'm smiling every time that I push that 'start' button, it fires right up and I smoothly power away!   ;D
CB750 K4  (original owner)

Offline Retro Rocket

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Re: point ignition swap out to Pamco electronic-advice please
« Reply #18 on: October 22, 2011, 02:16:30 PM »
Retro, you have PLENTY of VERY opinionated posts on this Forum on plenty of subjects, but now that I'm admonished for expressing mine I suppose I have to shut up. I don't expect anyone to make any decisions about ignitions based on any remarks by me.......... look at the facts and do whatever you want, no advise intended from me ;D

You seem to have missed the point, you and TT continually roast this guy for what.? Every time Peter posts one of you continually rubbish the guy. What are you trying to achieve.?

You said this.
Quote
Well 'Pete' seems to lack confidence in his product if he has to respond to a question with a diatribe of tech
.

Have you read any of TT's posts, he leaves this guy for dead with long {informative}posts, so I imagine you will be off to give Lloyd a serve now.?

As far as i am concerned, we need guys like Peter, Mike Rieck, Frankenstuff, Voxonda and anyone else that makes products for our old machines and i applaud them for their service....
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If You can't fix it with a hammer, You've got an electrical problem.

Offline scunny

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Re: point ignition swap out to Pamco electronic-advice please
« Reply #19 on: October 22, 2011, 02:26:16 PM »
As far as i am concerned, we need guys like Peter, Mike Rieck, Frankenstuff, Voxonda and anyone else that makes products for our old machines and i applaud them for their service

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Offline mjstone

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Re: point ignition swap out to Pamco electronic-advice please
« Reply #20 on: October 22, 2011, 04:28:40 PM »
I was very interested in Hondaman's ignition and was intending on going with it for my CB500.  I had the 2.3 points break twice in a months time.  I realized that they could have broken with the Hondaman ignition as well.  When I saw Pamcopete's ignition I decided to give it a go.  The installation was a breeze.  The Pamco ignition worked from the very first try.  I rode almost 2200 miles in the SOHC rally with it and have had no problems what so ever.  I highly recommend it and will order one for my '73 CB500 after I get it payed off.  Thanks Pamcopete for a great product.

MJ
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Offline dave500

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Re: point ignition swap out to Pamco electronic-advice please
« Reply #21 on: October 22, 2011, 06:32:42 PM »
i think pamcopete has put a good display of his system on here,without too much mumbo jumbo,,i realize the test was in open air and not compressed,if the points system had produced a bigger spark all the points lovers would be overjoyed,i can take either but i always go electronic,good on you pete.

Offline Danno

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Re: point ignition swap out to Pamco electronic-advice please
« Reply #22 on: October 22, 2011, 06:42:13 PM »
my apologees to pamco pete as far as I know he has a wonderful product and as far as the warranty issue I could not say who it was it was just something I read in the forrum and I could not tell you how long ago I am not a big fan of the electronic ignitions that do not use stock dwell or use special coils or get rid of the stock ignition circuit entirely I have a Dana ignition myself on one of my GL1000 motors and I have to say that if I could go back to stock I would the person asked what my opinion was and In my opinion spending money on things that are to replace stock good functioning items Is a waste as far as the person who was complaining that they could not get hold of him it may simply have been that the person was new or impatient for a response and I like others am also of the opinion that we need as many people like pete for these bikes as possible
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Re: point ignition swap out to Pamco electronic-advice please
« Reply #23 on: October 23, 2011, 02:29:42 PM »
Danno,

Thanks. I was just a little mystified because I have not had any warranty claims on the CB750 version of the product, as far as I can recall.

I also agree that there is no real need to change the stock coils out if they are working good because it adds to the total cost of my system and I do not want people to think that they have to buy two expensive new coils, because they don't have to. As you can see from the videos I posted, using my system, or any electronic ignition system for that matter, with the stock coils should produce as much as 50% higher voltage compared to points.

I would suggest, however, that you replace the old spark plug caps with new, even if you are going to keep your points.

As with any new product, there may be some misunderstandings about its capabilities, so I actually welcome the opportunity to explain the benefits of an electronic ignition system.

Offline Danno

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Re: point ignition swap out to Pamco electronic-advice please
« Reply #24 on: October 23, 2011, 03:19:48 PM »
thank you for your forgiveness as I said I was not trying to bash your product and do believe in what you are saying that any electronic ignition can lead to much better performance from the coils of any type and I also see that your product is much closer to the stock dwell than the Dana which I believe to be inferior to your product but still better than stock points
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