Topic: The Runcible Racer - maduncle's CB450 project

[Terry in Australia]

Are they still going Cliff? Geez, I took my first Suzuki GS1000 to them 16 years ago, I had an engine out of a drag bike in a road bike frame, anyway, they "Tuned" it for me, charged me a thousand bucks and gave it back running like schidt with a blown head gasket. I hope they've improved since then, it was a disappointing effort. Cheers, Terry.

[maduncle]

Hmmm, maybe I will check out some other engine builders too - thanks Terry.

Today's efforts were minor as we spent the morning at a local flea market getting vintage stock for the shop.

After cleaning some of the things we got, I spent an hour or so putting the carbie parts in that I got courtesy of the kind support of cbfnut (thanks buddy) and then I modified my flea market headlamp bowl with the hole for one gauge - to take a digital gauge (thanks Terry).



I had to widen the opening by about 2mm diameter with a file so the gauge slips in.

And I had to trim the chromed plastic edge trim on the gauge so it would fit around the headlamp bucket radius.



Tricky little bit of trimming.

This weeks task then is to find a crank rebuilder, and hopefully I will get my Rockcity seat pan in the mail.

[Terry in Australia]

Oooher, that looks good Cliff, good job!

[maduncle]

Oooher, that looks good Cliff, good job!

Thanks Terry - I reckon it will look 'neat and discrete' once it is on the bike.

[maduncle]

Early start this morning.

I got up at 6.30am and drove to the chrome platers to be there by 7.00am for when they open and I dropped off the rims, tank side panels, fork springs, fork top nuts and assorted parts.

They are quoting a two month turn around and since I am off to the USA on the 8th July - I may not see the parts until I get back in August!

Ah well - that gives me plenty of time to build an engine and do further work on the frame.

[maduncle]

Woo Hoo!

I got my cafe racer seat pan in the mail today - and man is it big!

I will get the tank and seat pan onto the frame shortly to work out the frame tail loop and to see if the front end of the seat will need any trimming so it all fits the bike.

The Rockcity seat pan is a quality build though, well finished, good thick walls and very tough stuff.

Photos soon.

[maduncle]

Getting into the engine innards in more detail now.

Best news is that my 'good mate in Mill Park' actually has a cylinder honing rig in his Tardis and can hone my sleeves for me to the next oversize required for new pistons.

Here are the old pistons that were well rusted into the sleeves (something to do with being under an inch of watery sludge inside the cylinders for a decade or more)...



If you can see past the rust pitting and the blow marks from the cold chisel I used to get the pistons out - what you then cannot see are any oversize numbers stamped in the top of the pistons, meaning that these are the original stock size.

Which gives me plenty of scope to go oversize 2, 3 or 4 - depending upon what needs to come off the sleeves to get them smooth again.

Well - that's my theory anyway.

__________________

[Terry in Australia]

G'Day Cliff, no worries mate, it's actually a Repco boring machine from my cousin's bike shop. I do have a really cool 4 stone hone as well, which I'll use to finish off each cylinder after I bore them out for your new pistons. Cheers, Terry.

[maduncle]

Ha!

Going round in circles here...

Terry stopped boring at 71.5mm as we had gone past the available range of oversize pistons and were moving into 'big bore kit' range - and that is not somewhere I wish to go with this bike (maybe the next CB450...)

And the mechanic next door can't get the last of the broken studs out of the upper crankcase, so it is off to the specialists with it later this week.

I have another cylinder with good sleeves and the original pistions in good condition on their to me so we can start again - these sleeves may only need a hone to re-fit the pistons and new rings.

And - I was lucky enough to pick up an original shop manual in excellent condition, had a good read last night and I think I have discovered that I need to be assembling the gearbox and bottom end into the UPPER crankcase - not the lower one.

Now some questions for you experts...

Do I install the cylinder head studs in the upper crankcase prior to bottom end gearbox and crank assembly or can I assemble the bottom end, flip it over and then install the long studs priot to head assembly?

And are there torque settings for studs or do I just work on geting them nice and tight?

Do I pre-lube gears and bearings as I assemble, and if so - what with?

What is the best gasket goo to use on the two crankcase halves when I bring them together?

Thanks!

[Terry in Australia]

Well I'm no 450 expert Cliff, but I'm always happy to add my 2 cents worth, as you know........ Anyway, it probably doesn't matter which way you assemble the bottom end, I only recently discovered that I've been doing it arse backwards on CB750's for 30-odd years, not that it makes any difference.

Why not install the studs last? It'll make it easier. There are torque settings for tightening the head nuts, so as long as you don't go over that torque setting when you install your studs into your cases (using the tried and true "double nut" method) you won't have a problem.

You can buy fancy assembly lube, but good clean engine oil is just as effective. Use plenty. Threebond 1104 sealant is the only sealant to use on your case halves, don't use anything else, or risk watching oil drip on the floor out of your freshly restored engine, as I did a few years ago when I opted to use another product. Cheers, Terry.  

[maduncle]

Cheers Terry,

I will go shopping for Threebond 1104 this weekend.

[Terry in Australia]

I think Supercheap sells it mate, if not, most bike shops will, that's what they use. 

[maduncle]

Thanks Terry,

By the way - what's your favourite engine/gearbox oil to use?

[Terry in Australia]

Penrite HPR30. 

[maduncle]

Bling bling!





Six o'clock this morning I get up to a cold wet dark Melbourne and drive up the road to the chrome platers, who rang me on Friday to tell me my parts were done.

Wow - I love fresh chrome!

So now I will drop off the rims and hubs to a local wheel lacer, and then organise some tyres.

Meanwhile, I am still waiting to get my crankcase back from the spark erosion mob who are removing the broken stud...

...and I am still waiting for work to be done on my frame.

(tick...     tick...     tick...)

[Terry in Australia]

Nice! What'd they sting you for all that Cliff? Cheers, Terry.

[maduncle]

$520 for the lot Terry, and that included a fair bit of panel beating on the tank sides and a lot of work on polishing the copper layer on the rims.

So now my rims and hubs are off getting assembled with stainless spokes.

Meanwhile - today I got my upper crankcase back, so I have re-assembled the gearbox and installed the crank.

Hopefully I got the gear selector forks positioned right! It seems to move through four positions without jamming.

I think it might be time to invest in a timing chain...

[maduncle]

Smack my head time.
 
I got the upper crankcase back last week, so as I said last post, on Saturday I got to finish building the gearbox into it - all went well and the gear change drum moves through the gears nicely.
 
I then set the crank in place and finger tightened the nuts. My old torque wrench was just too dodgy, so off I went to buy a new one. Six stores later and I end up with a 'mid range' $110 one.
 
Back home and onto the nuts, wrench on the lowest setting to start with as a test, turn, turn, turn, turn (etc) until - the wrench starts to move too easily.
 
...
 
uh-oh.
 
...
 
Lucky for me what happended was the wrench stripped the thread out of the inside of the nut, rather than break the stud.
 
So - this wrench is going back to the shop.
 
To rectify the situation, I toddled across the road to my trustly local mechanic Frank, who loaned me an 8mm button die that drops inside a socket, so I could clean up all the threads on the crank studs without having to remove the long crankcase studs so I could turn a die handle.

(Neat trick that, I will buy six sided button dies in future rather than round ones).

After the clean up, I fitted new high tensile bolts by hand, and then dropped off the whole thing to Frank, who will use his top quality torque wrench and properly tighten the nuts to the right spec.
 
So folks, any recommendations on a good brand torque wrench to buy - new or used?

I still have a few more things to tighten yet!

[Terry in Australia]

I've got a couple here Cliff, but the only one I use on my bikes is my Aussie made Warren and Brown 0- 90 foot pounds 3/8" drive "Deflecting Beam" torque wrench, which I've been using over the last 30 years or so.

Surprisingly, W&B are still alive and well, which is probably a testament to their quality. I wouldn't buy a used torque wrench though, I've seen people doing terrible things with them over the years, and the last thing you want is one that some jerk has been using for a hammer. Torque wrenches are a precision tool, and actually should be tested and if necessary, re-calibrated on a regular basis.

I'm not sure how experienced you are at torqueing bolts and nuts, but there is a technique to learn. First of all, ensure that all the threads are clean, undamaged, and lightly oiled. If the torque setting is say, 15 foot pounds, set your wrench on 5 foot pounds, and using the torque pattern diagram in your manual, torque each fastener to 5 foot pounds. Now set your torque setting to 10 foot pounds, and repeat the process. Now set the wrench to 13 foot pounds, repeat the process, then finally, 15 foot pounds.

If it's a cylinder head, torque it down as per my previous description, then leave it overnight. In the morning, loosen all the cylinder head nuts, then retorque them again, incrementally. It's a fair bit of work, but by leaving it overnight you will have crushed the head gasket down about as far as it'll go, so when you retorque it a few hours later, it won't leak. Where a lot of guys get into trouble is they see that the torque setting is 15 foot pounds, so they set their wrench for 15 foot pounds, ignore any torque pattern diagrams, and then wonder why it didn't work.

Don't buy a used torque wrench, don't buy a cheap torque wrench, and don't try to borrow my torque wrench. If you want a price on a good quality W&B wrench let me know, my mate John (owner of the fabulous bike collection) owns the Total Tools store in Bell St, Heidelberg, and he's always good for a discount. Cheers, Terry.    

http://precisiontools.warrenandbrown.com.au/?gclid=CNzbofqm17ACFVGZpAodSzcezA

http://precisiontools.warrenandbrown.com.au/public/editor_images/PDFS/Deflecting%20beam%20selson.pdf

[maduncle]

Spot on as per usual Terry.

This was my very first time using a torque wrench, and after the first stuff up I now clean all thread and use a bit of oil (after Frank showed me).

W&B was the brand I was looking at, and I quickly decided to steer clear of any second hand ones, for the same reasons you mentioned.

The tips on torquing are very useful, thanks - particularly the two goes at torquing down the head to make sure the gasket crushing was accounted for.

Finally - guess where I bought my mid range $110 torque wrench?

I rang Total tools in Bell Street today and they were happy to take it back, if you want to talk to John and let him know I would like to upgrade to a W&B model - I would appreciate that. If possible, I am going back in on Saturday morning (before we go for a ride).

And let him know I am happy to visit his man cave and make appreciative noises about his bikes!

Cheers.

[Terry in Australia]

Ha ha, no worries, I'll call him tomorrow, you never know, he might want to come for a ride with us! Cheers, Terry.

[maduncle]

Ha ha, no worries, I'll call him tomorrow, you never know, he might want to come for a ride with us! Cheers, Terry.

Brilliant! 

[maduncle]

The weekends work...



All tightened up and ready for the next stage, I am just check measuring clutch plate parts for wear before I install them.



Tank side plate with badge fitted and rubber pad sitting in place for the photo.

Nice.

[Terry in Australia]

Am I the only one watching this thread Cliff? Is that a tumbleweed rolling past? Anyway, I like it mate, especially those tank panels, good work!

[bluesmoke69]

Looking great, keep up the nice work.