Topic: Triumph TRW, anyone have whitworth tools???

[Lumbee]

Hey folks, picked up a Triumph motor (paid way to much  ) and need some whitworth tools to wrench on it. Just thought I'd try it here before I spent money on overseas shipping.

This is a cool little motor. TRW500. Its a flat head twin. Never worked on a flat head, so this should be fun.

[scottly]

Wow, never saw a flattie Triumph before! What year was it made?

[Lumbee]

hmm...have not ran down the engine numbers on mine yet...but I think late 40's through the 50's. War bike...never sold on the the civilian market, but lots ended up being sold as surplus.

[Steve_K]

You could try Snap-On tools.  I got mine in the 70's off the truck.  Not low cost, but good stuff!
Steve

[gane]

LumBee, Do yourself a favor, & buy cataloges from both WALRIDGE MOTORS LTD,  & DOMI RACER... both will list wrench & socket sets and tap & dies for w/worth  bits. As well as  HOURS of perusal for comparing what may or not be similar/substitutable replacement parts. As a practicing Britophobe, I've learned NOT TO TAKE SHORT-CUTS.    Engish machines were brutally simple, Yet because of "period" machining & materiels were & are notorious for failure.. study & understand the bits your' working with, and if a "cleaner/more efficient route ' is available, use it.. Luck g

[Lumbee]

Thanx gane, sounds like good advice. I have already been tempted to find the closest fit possible with standard or metric bits and see how far  could get on the tear down, but quickly realized that just not the way to do it. So, yes, I will be patient and wait for the until I have the proper tools to do the job.

I am really having a touch time finding the extractor tool for the crank/pinion gear. This seems to be specific to this machine, and none of the other earlier twins. I do some machining/thread cutting and am wondering if I will have to make my own extractor. Are the threads on the mill also whitworth?

[HondanutRider]

An interesting trivia about Whitworth threads is that their pitch is Metric.  While the profiles of the thread might be slightly different on standard Metric thread, they should match up and work if the same pitch is used.  Whitworth nuts and bolts used unique head sizes that are different from either standard SAE of Metric sizes, and using a socket or wrench from these series will usually result in a "rounded" head.

Historically, Whitworth originated during/after WWI when the British brought some of the latest modern (at the time) thread cutting machines out of France for safe keeping during the war.  These machines were capable of mass producing very accurate threads, but Metric of course, and the British war effort needed parts for the mechanized warfare that was evolving.  After the war, they kept the machines and started producing their own "nuts and bolts" standardizing on the unique bolt heads.    Because the original machines produced Metric threads, that's what Whitworth remained.

So, if a Whitworth bolt or nut gets "buggered" in removal. you likely can substitute a corresponding Metric-threaded one.  However, it then won't be authentic and the "purist" concourse evaluator will mark you down.

[Dave K]

You are on the right track looking for wrenches. The next thing to buy is ALL the pullers or special tools. I am sure there are ways to work around using the proper tools but when I restored my '67 Tri. TR6R, it was the best investment I did. The tools can be kept for future projects or resold and you are still way ahead of the game.

[Lumbee]

@hondaNut - Awesome history lesson...

@Dave K - I am having a bear of a time finding one of the pullers. I have only gotten as far as pulling the right side cover, and I need two gear pullers. One for the crank, and another for the cam. The cam gear extractor seems to be common to other 50/60's era models. However, the crank puller seems very rare. I have emailed half dozen parts houses around the globe and no one has one. It may be time to brush up on my lathe/thread cutting skills.

[Dave K]

At the time I was doing the TR6R, I was getting almost everything from British Only in Mich. They are still in business, but I have no idea how their inventory is. I am sure a Google of them will have you finding them. They were GREAT people to work with.

[gane]

L, Looking thru my Waldrige cat, there is listed a "timing pinion extractor  for Norton & Triump twins". P/N p158.... ret. $61.50  (2004 cat),It looks like an automotive clutch blind bearing puller (screw type) but with the "grabbing collets" external instead of internal.  My experiance w/ engish machines is limited ( 2 BSA's , 2 Truimphs,a Matchless, & an Ariel. But have managed  to remove mine with the aid of a small 3 jaw puller (after some trimming of the "grabbing arms"..... A TIP, sometimes these "wheels"can be reluctant to come off. Once you come up with a Puller, If the pinion still won't budge,  try this, with puller "loaded" heat pinion & crank 'til spit sizzels nicely, Then apply dried ice. Luck G......PS, I've never even heard of your' project, but am guessing that you'll be pushing against a threaded "nose " of crank... install & push against it's retaining nut. "belling or bending"  the crank would be disasterous... again luck g

[gregk]

Nice find on the TRW.  When I was in highschool years ago, you could buy a army surplus Triumph 500 from Princess Auto in Winnipeg.  Eveything was in a big crate, only some assemply required.  The Canadian Army used them during the war. 
I assume that the bike has a mag or a mag-dyno.  i ran across a similiar problem when working on my M21 600 BSA single.  Fortunately, i had a friend taking a machine shop course and he made one for me.  Maybe mine will work for you? 

[pknopp]

 I've asked the tool sellers at the local flea markets for years if they have any Whitworth. Not once have any had any. Most have no idea what I'm asking about.

[Lumbee]

@gane I have seen the tool you are describing, and am pretty sure its not what I am looking for. According to the manual none of the tools for the TRW have the arms you are describing (see pics attached) I will try jaw type removers as a last resort, but I'm hoping I can find the proper tools to reduce and chance of damaging anything.

@gredk I heard about the TRW's in crates. Heres a a link and pic  of one that sold at auction. How would you like to have that mounted above the mantle over the fireplace. I would definitely be interested in your puller if you are willing to part with it. I'd like to make sure it will work before I put you to any trouble. Could you post a pic of it?

@pknopp I have a set of whitworth sockets on the way from england. All the sets in the states were far more expensive than those over seas even when adding in shipping.

[bill440cars]

   Hey Mark, I sent you a PM. 

[malcolmgb]

A TRW on a club run earlier this year.

[gregk]

Lumbee

got a picture of the mag timing pinion tool.  It's been years since i worked on the bike, but still have it! 
The tool was made by a friend of mine.

the centre pin measures 0.310"dia.
the treaded part that screws into the timing gear is 0.674" dia. approximately with a 20 tpi pitch.
On a BSA these timing gears were press fit on the mag shaft.  easy to get on but a rear bear to get off! 
If this will work for you, i would gladly lend it to you along with a few whitworth wrenches.

[754]

  Keep in mind if making a puller that has to match a Brit engine part thread, it is 55 degree threadform, NOT 60 degree..

[Lumbee]

@754 Good tip, I am assuming the machinist handbook will have this info. I will certainly consult that before  making any chips

@gregk Thanks for taking the pic. Does not look like that will work on any of the gears I am tring to remove. They are all around 1" in diameter. I have a set of whitworth sockets on the way from across the pond, so hopfully I can make it without 'spanners'.

@bill440 PM'd ya back. Good to see you are still hanging around! 

[malcolmgb]

http://www.burtonbikebits.net/Tools.htm lots of special tools here.
Try here for advice http://classicbikenetwork.com/groups/triumph-trw-owners-group/