Author Topic: CB750 K8 Need carb help please!!!  (Read 5949 times)

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Offline JustinC.

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CB750 K8 Need carb help please!!!
« on: January 24, 2012, 10:12:34 AM »
I wanted to start by introducing myself, my name is Justin, I'm from Baltimore where I work as a yacht technician. I'm my free time I build cars, mostly VW, turbo and engine swap type stuff.  I have a small garage at home I work out of with most of the tools I need.  This is my first bike and my first build.
I've been lurking around this site for a while learning as much as I can, gaining inspiration, and searching to solve some of my problems on my own, but this one has got me stumped.

Bought the bike a few weeks ago, when I went to look at it it was running really fat, smoking black from the pipes.  I figure the PO messed something up as he said he just "went through them".

I get the bike home pull the carbs. Disassemble them completely and placed them in carb cleaner over night.  Cleaned both pilots and main jet holders with wire cleaners. Inspected everything. The carbs were very clean before I pulled them apart.

Reassembled the as per the Honda manual, installed them, and they do the same thing... Black sooty smoke from the pipes.  Occasionally it'll foul the plugs. The pilot screw make NO difference in mixture.  I double checked float height with the clear tubing and it's just below the top of the bowl, which looks perfect to me.

To cover my bases thinking it could possible something else, I checked and adjusted the valves, checked and staticly timed it.  I checked for air leaks.

I'm at a loss.  It appears the PO rebuilt the carbs with a keyster kit that replaced the pilot screw and spring and the slide needle. The pilot screw has a slot for a flat screw driver and an extended nurled section which looks just like the one on SCI's site for a '78 CB750 K8.

Is it possible the pilot screw needle isn't long enough or the slide needle is too short?
Anyone else seen this?
I hope it's something stupid as I'm a noob to bikes!

Thank you!!!


Offline 754

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Re: CB750 K8 Need carb help please!!!
« Reply #1 on: January 24, 2012, 10:25:11 AM »
 Welcome aboard.
 IZs by chance your accelerator pump letting fuel thru all the time, or you choke partly on ?
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Offline grcamna2

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Re: CB750 K8 Need carb help please!!!
« Reply #2 on: January 24, 2012, 10:26:16 AM »
Welcome to the forum JustinC :),

        I recommend that you get back in touch w/ the PO and see if you can get ANY of the original carburetor jets,slide needles,float valve hardware,etc. back from him that he removed before he installed the Keyster kits...those kits have been notorious for having the incorrect sizes of jets,needles and metering hardware.I would re-install all the O.E. carb.parts and go from there;I usually rebuild my carbs w/ only the O.E. Honda rubber o-ring kits and re-use the original jets,needles,etc.

                                            Let us know how things are working out ;) for you.
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Offline Gonzowerke

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Re: CB750 K8 Need carb help please!!!
« Reply #3 on: January 24, 2012, 10:45:30 AM »
First off, what size jets are in? The factory shop manual says #115 should be there. What condition are the float seals and seats in? Look at the tip, they are rubber and should NOT have a little groove in them from the seat! And the brass seats should be smooth. Stock K8 needles have no height grooves, and are not adjustable, Do the needles in there now have grooves? If so, try a higher groove. The higher the groove, the lower the needle sits. Unfortunately, the manual does not give me a needle length for the later years with the newer carbs. Your float height seems okay, to set them, Remove the bowls, and turn the carbs upside down. The floats should be parallel with the bowl sealing flange, and if you want to measure, they should be 12.5mm from the flange. Are the plugs fouling with gas? or oil? Black smoke usually means fuel, but my experience is if it is running rich enough to smoke, it is too rich to fire. is the air filter clean? try removing the paper element and see what happens then. Oh yeah, look at the tower the main jet and emulsion tube screw into. Do any of them have a crack? That will allow excess fuel in. You can fix it by cutting the bottom off of a spent 45 ACP shell and tapping it over the tower. It is ral easy to overtighten the tube and crack this. And lastly, when it is running, take a wet rag or paper towel and touch each header. You should hear the water hiss from the heat, any one that is cold is not firing. This could be just plug wires if only one, coil if both 1 and 3 or 2 and 4 are cold. I assume you are firing on all 4, since you did not mention any roughness.

The problem here is that so many things can cause this. Even though it is a bike, the same principles of fuel management from the car world apply, as all carb'd piston engines work the same way. Good luck!
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Offline JustinC.

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Re: CB750 K8 Need carb help please!!!
« Reply #4 on: January 24, 2012, 06:47:10 PM »
So I just came back in from tinkering some more.  I had to change to oil because it was so fuel contaminated.

754:  The accelerators aren't leaking and the choke is off.  It'll fire right up without the choke on in 35 degree weather.  Ive been running it without the air box on to be able to look into the carbs while its running to see whats going on.

grcamna2:  That's good to know about the keyster parts.  The PO gave me a box of crap with the bike, there is a bag of carb parts, but they are mixed.  There is on "non-adjustable" slide needle like I have now, one adjustable one, 2 110 main jets, and 2 pilot screws.
I did check the pilot screws during the rebuild with the ones in the bag and they were the same except for the knurled section.

Gonzowerke:  The jets that were in there were marked "925", that meant nothing to me, so I ordered a jet kit from SCI and put 115s in.  My Honda manual says '78 K= 110, and F= 105.  My bike has a 4 into 1 with no baffles.
As for the float seals they are brand new, I cleaned and inspected the seats too.  The seals I pulled out also looked new.
My slide needles are non-adjustable.  I DID NOT compare the needles with the one suspect stock one from the bag I was given.
I adjusted my floats to 14.5 as per my manual, I checked it with clear tubes and the level sits just below the top of the bowl.  12.5mm will put even more fuel in the bowl, right?
All of the jet holders or emulsion tubes looked good, didn't see any cracks or distortion, I ran a wire cleaner through every hole of every tube.
All 4 cylinders are firing, i have a burnt hand to testify.  #2 was fuel fouling the plug.


This is what i noticed tonight:  While the bike is running, looking into the throat of the carb it appears fuel is being pulled from the main jet at idle.  You can see fuel fluttering around the slide needle from the main jet.
Should this be?
The Main has nothing to do with the idle circuit on these PD carbs right?
Also, does anyone know if the slide needle should bottom all the way out into the main jet hole to "seal it off" at idle?  The needles are spring loaded I imagine to hold pressure on the main jet to close it. It doesn't appear that my needles are going deep enough to stop fuel from being pulled out of the main.

Thank you so much for all of your help, I have a feeling I'm getting closer!
Justin
« Last Edit: January 24, 2012, 06:53:57 PM by JustinC. »

Offline mattcoff1

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Re: CB750 K8 Need carb help please!!!
« Reply #5 on: January 24, 2012, 06:57:01 PM »
Justin
I'm in baltimore also and have owned rebuilt a 78 750
had the carbs apart many times...
where are you located ,i might be able to help

 Matt

Offline grcamna2

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Re: CB750 K8 Need carb help please!!!
« Reply #6 on: January 24, 2012, 07:10:30 PM »
+1 Matt  ;) Good Man.
« Last Edit: January 24, 2012, 07:37:14 PM by grcamna2 »
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Offline JustinC.

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Re: CB750 K8 Need carb help please!!!
« Reply #7 on: January 24, 2012, 07:16:58 PM »
Matt:
I'm in Pasadena, just south of the city.  Another set of eyes would be awesome!!!

grcamna2:  Thanks, I try to be as thorough as possible.  I told myself, "get the bike running first, modify second" and I'm ready to start building this thing!

Offline BobbyR

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Re: CB750 K8 Need carb help please!!!
« Reply #8 on: January 24, 2012, 07:31:28 PM »
I think you may want to look at the slow jets. I personally opened mine up by doing a too aggressive cleaning. I had a fog of unburned raw gas coming out of the pipes that I could light with a torch.
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Offline mattcoff1

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Re: CB750 K8 Need carb help please!!!
« Reply #9 on: January 24, 2012, 08:28:57 PM »
PM sent

 Matt

Offline scottly

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Re: CB750 K8 Need carb help please!!!
« Reply #10 on: January 24, 2012, 08:39:25 PM »

I adjusted my floats to 14.5 as per my manual, I checked it with clear tubes and the level sits just below the top of the bowl. 
The fuel level, as checked with clear tubes, should be 2-3mm below the top of the bowl.
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Offline Spanner 1

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Re: CB750 K8 Need carb help please!!!
« Reply #11 on: January 24, 2012, 09:39:58 PM »
OP... if your bike is "pulling fuel from the main jet at idle' then either your main jets are too big and/or the slide needle 'profile' is too small ( taper ) at idle position and/or fuel level is too high in the bowls,.
Could the main jets be drilled to some unknown size?..... Very '80's' trick when 4-into-1 or drag pipes were installed  ;)
Happened to me !.... my mains were marked 120 ( stock, correct ) but were drilled-out by a P.O. 'cos they had drag pipes on the bike... I did not know until I compared an actual 120 jet; waaay smaller  :o
« Last Edit: January 24, 2012, 09:43:49 PM by Spanner 1 »
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Offline JustinC.

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Re: CB750 K8 Need carb help please!!!
« Reply #12 on: January 25, 2012, 05:46:11 AM »
I put brand new 115 jets in when I rebuilt them, so I know they're right now.  The level  is 2-3mm below the bowl top as Scottly suggested.  I may try to lower it a tad more to see if it makes a difference.
I wanna pull the slide needle out and compare it with the one in the bag-o-parts.
SCI say the needle is D313, I would like to see if mine have any markings on them.
I may order some new slows too, just to eliminate the possibility...
Thanks again for all the help!

Offline Gonzowerke

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Re: CB750 K8 Need carb help please!!!
« Reply #13 on: January 25, 2012, 08:48:55 AM »
Glad you are getting closer to solving this. Not sure why #2 is the only one fouling though, that cylinder's carb has the pump in it, but you stated that it was not pulling fuel from the acc. circuit. Do all the carbs pull fuel from the needle at idle? or just one? +1 on the taper if all, somehow fuel is leaking past the emulsion tube if one.
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Offline JustinC.

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Re: CB750 K8 Need carb help please!!!
« Reply #14 on: January 25, 2012, 09:15:19 AM »
It appears to be pulling fuel past the needle on all cylinders.  All plugs are soot black from fuel.  Im may check the needles tonight.
Any idea where to get new needles from?
Thanks again

Offline grcamna2

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Re: CB750 K8 Need carb help please!!!
« Reply #15 on: January 25, 2012, 09:34:05 AM »
Why not re-install the original ones along w/ the brass needle jet that the PO removed ? :).
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Offline brewsky

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Re: CB750 K8 Need carb help please!!!
« Reply #16 on: January 25, 2012, 04:36:15 PM »
 May want to check the needle jets for wear. Sometimes they get egg shaped from the needle hitting against them over time.
Also, did you pull the slow jets and clean the side holes?

« Last Edit: January 25, 2012, 05:24:25 PM by brewsky »
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Offline JustinC.

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Re: CB750 K8 Need carb help please!!!
« Reply #17 on: January 25, 2012, 06:31:53 PM »
grcamna2, in the bag I was given from the previous owner, there is not a full set of needles, only one that is possibly the original.

brewsky, Ill check the needle jets this weekend.  I think Ill break them down again.  I did pull the slow jets and fully cleaned them.  I shop carb cleaner through every hole to make sure it was clear.

Im thinking about buying another set of "parts" carbs just to verify mine have the correct parts in them

Thanks for all the help guys!

Offline gnarlycharlie4u

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Re: CB750 K8 Need carb help please!!!
« Reply #18 on: January 27, 2012, 06:29:47 AM »
grcamna2, in the bag I was given from the previous owner, there is not a full set of needles, only one that is possibly the original.

brewsky, Ill check the needle jets this weekend.  I think Ill break them down again.  I did pull the slow jets and fully cleaned them.  I shop carb cleaner through every hole to make sure it was clear.

Im thinking about buying another set of "parts" carbs just to verify mine have the correct parts in them

Thanks for all the help guys!

I can give you a hand with the carbs. You should bring them by and let me have a look at them.

FWIW I'd avoid soaking the carb bodies in cleaner as that can destroy the felt rings that surround the choke dowels. It also usually makes for more gunk and deposits in your accelerator pump.

Offline grcamna2

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Re: CB750 K8 Need carb help please!!!
« Reply #19 on: January 27, 2012, 06:36:06 AM »
grcamna2, in the bag I was given from the previous owner, there is not a full set of needles, only one that is possibly the original.

brewsky, Ill check the needle jets this weekend.  I think Ill break them down again.  I did pull the slow jets and fully cleaned them.  I shop carb cleaner through every hole to make sure it was clear.

Im thinking about buying another set of "parts" carbs just to verify mine have the correct parts in them

Thanks for all the help guys!

I can give you a hand with the carbs. You should bring them by and let me have a look at them.

FWIW I'd avoid soaking the carb bodies in cleaner as that can destroy the felt rings that surround the choke dowels. It also usually makes for more gunk and deposits in your accelerator pump.
JustinC,   Did you ever hook up with Matt ? maybe one of these kind members may have a few extra carb parts ::) :).
75' CB400F/'bunch o' parts'
  I love the small ones too !
Do your BEST...nobody can take that away from you.

Offline JustinC.

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Re: CB750 K8 Need carb help please!!!
« Reply #20 on: January 28, 2012, 11:25:27 AM »
I spoke on the phone with Matt about the possibilities, we did verify the slides were in correct. 
Thanks for the heads up about the carb cleaner, is lemon juice safer?

I pulled the carbs apart again today and I'm checking with the diagram in the manual.
I found a part missing and I'm not sure it it should be there.

The Honda K8 manual shows a small round cylinder (looks similar to a brake cable ferrel with a raised ring around it) under the main jet holder or emulsion tube.  There were 3 of these in my parts bag from the previous owner; however, they will not fit under the tubes in the carbs.  The emulsion tube will not thread in as the assembly is too tall with this in place.

Do I have the wrong emulsion tubes or unneeded part for this application?

Which brings me to my next question with something I noticed:
Should the slide needle extend all the way through the emulsion tube and plug the hole in the main jet with the throttle closed?
Mine are about 1/8" from plugging the main jet. 

My thought:  If the mains are not plugged at idle, vacuum will be able to pull fuel up and into the cylinders.

Can anyone verify this?

As I said I'm a noob to carbs, please correct me if I'm wrong.

Thanks a bunch,
Oh, I found some cheap carbs on eBay I'm gonna grab up, so hopefully I and figure out whats going on with my current set.

Apparently I love mystery basket carbs!!!
 

Offline gnarlycharlie4u

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Re: CB750 K8 Need carb help please!!!
« Reply #21 on: January 28, 2012, 12:54:39 PM »
Thanks for the heads up about the carb cleaner, is lemon juice safer?

I'd say simple green is your best bet.

Offline Spanner 1

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Re: CB750 K8 Need carb help please!!!
« Reply #22 on: January 28, 2012, 06:33:19 PM »
The needles do not drop down to close the main jets with the slides all the way down. The needle holder ( emulsion tube)  has fuel in it to the same level as the carb bowls. I'm thinking those needles are wrong size/taper for your carbs, do you have an old one for compare ?
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Offline brewsky

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Re: CB750 K8 Need carb help please!!!
« Reply #23 on: January 29, 2012, 05:25:18 AM »


I found a part missing and I'm not sure it it should be there.

The Honda K8 manual shows a small round cylinder (looks similar to a brake cable ferrel with a raised ring around it) under the main jet holder or emulsion tube.  There were 3 of these in my parts bag from the previous owner; however, they will not fit under the tubes in the carbs.  The emulsion tube will not thread in as the assembly is too tall with this in place.

 
Those would be the needle jets. They press in to the carb body and the needle slides thru them
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Offline JustinC.

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Re: CB750 K8 Need carb help please!!!
« Reply #24 on: January 30, 2012, 05:46:20 AM »
Thanks guys for all the help.
I'm waiting for the carbs to arrive that I got off eBay.
Hopefully Ill be able to get to the bottom of this.  It's been frustrating.
I'm the mean time I did mount my clip-ons and I'm I'm the process of making brackets for my rearset.
Thanks again, I'll keep you guys posted when I figure out something.