Author Topic: Just won a GEREX electronic ignition!  (Read 15190 times)

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amattel

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Just won a GEREX electronic ignition!
« on: May 26, 2006, 05:58:54 AM »
HI guys,

I am excited I Just won a GEREX electronic ignition for my 750!

I read about it in the performance section of my manual.  According to the manual it is the one that offers the most performance increases due it its firing the spark multiple times per firing cycle.

From looking at the pictures it seems to replace the manual advance mechanism.

this is the auction http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=4641950791&rd=1&sspagename=STRK%3AMEWA%3AIT&rd=1

Does anyone know anything about these?



Also,  Here's an auction for R.C. Engineering Power Pack Ignition System, CB750 CB
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=4644035360&sspagename=ADME%3AB%3ASS%3AUS%3A1

I am not bidding on this one due to financial reasons  ;) , but it seems like it would be a cool addition to a high performance cb.

Maybe my new ignition will arrive in time for me to have it at the NorCal meet!

Happy ridin'

Adam

Offline Jeff.Saunders

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Re: Just won a GEREX electronic ignition!
« Reply #1 on: May 26, 2006, 06:05:35 AM »
In their day, Gerex were the top of the line ignitions - but their day was 20 years ago.

I'm not sure of the coil resistance requirements for your setup.  I removed a Gerex system from one of my bikes last year (it finally failed after many years of service).  The coils were matched to the ignition - 0.8ohm coils - very, very low resistance coils. 

amattel

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Re: Just won a GEREX electronic ignition!
« Reply #2 on: May 26, 2006, 06:11:34 AM »
uh oh!

does this mean that I can't play with my new toy until I find a rare and expensive .8 ohm coil?!?! :(

I haven't found any other info on gerex other than what it says in my cb750 repair manual.

Sounds like it is time to do more research on it.

thanks for the info,

Adam

amattel

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Re: Just won a GEREX electronic ignition!
« Reply #3 on: May 26, 2006, 07:50:00 AM »
So, I just discovered that the seller had another auction going at the same time for the coils that went with this, but didn't bother to mention it until auctions were over ???

So, I am now on a hunt to figure out what coils would work well with this unit, and where I can score them. (And if I can afford them ::) )

Anyone have any ideas on this?

Dyna has coils with  .7, 1.5, 3, and 5 ohm primaries.   Jeff was saying he pulled one from a bike that was running .8 ohm coils... does this mean the .7 dynas might be the best match?  The Gerex fires multiple sparks per firing cycle so does this require special coils?

thanks,

Adam


Offline hcritz

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Re: Just won a GEREX electronic ignition!
« Reply #4 on: May 26, 2006, 08:58:24 AM »
Hello Adam.
I was toying with the idea of using a GM coilpack...as they have to outlets that fire simultaneously. The also appear to be a very low ohm coil...
Might be worth checking into.

Offline SteveD CB500F

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Re: Just won a GEREX electronic ignition!
« Reply #5 on: May 26, 2006, 10:09:09 AM »
Be very careful with ultra-low impedence coils as the current draw from your charging system is inversely proportional to the coil impedence.

Imagine what 0.7 ohm coils (17 amps! or 206 watts) will do to your alternator output.

Jeff's post is proof that they work, but you must make sure that all other electrical systems are in tip top condition.
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Offline cbjunkie

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Re: Just won a GEREX electronic ignition!
« Reply #6 on: May 26, 2006, 10:20:09 AM »
adam,
maybe the guy who bought the coils is looking for an ignition...
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Offline TwoTired

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Re: Just won a GEREX electronic ignition!
« Reply #7 on: May 26, 2006, 11:38:58 AM »
I don't know about the unit you purchased.  But, I can probably help you with the electrical theory.

Coils develop voltage based on a turns ratio of the windings/primary to secondary.  You can make more voltage by either adding windings to the secondary or reducing windings on the primary.  Wire, does have a resistance which creates and energy loss.  Adding windings also increases this loss.  This makes reducing primary windings look attractive from a wasted energy loss standpoint.  However, reducing the primary resistance increases the current demand to energize the coil.  As mentioned elsewhere, while the coil is being energized, presumeably with a 12 V source, a 0.8 ohm primary coil will draw 15 Amps (a 0.7 ohm coil will draw 17.14A).  This will not, of course, be a continuous draw, but will either be a percentage of the crankshaft rotation, or a timed duration event from some independent measuring device.  Multiple spark events would seem to indicate the presence of the latter.  Anyway, one thing to consider is if the Gerex triggering device inside can reliably withstand the extra current being demanded of 0.7 ohm coils.  A guess would be...probably. But, for how long is unknown without switch device data.

Discharge energy or charge energy?
Another factor of coil selection will be the mode of energy delivery.  The stock SOHC4 coils, store up energy before the spark event and release it during the spark event.  Some of the more modern ignition systems, deliver the energy to the coil only at the spark event and do not rely on the coils to store the energy, merely convert the voltage level.  Such coils do not have the large permeable metal mass needed to store energy. In fact, they need a smaller mass to create a rapid voltage increase at the output.  Could the Gerex be an early predecessor of the modern type?

Rather a shame you couldn't get the coils designed to work with that ignition module.  You just may have bought yourself a reverse engineering project.

Best of luck!
Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
72 500, 74 550, 75 550K, 75 550F, 76 550F, 77 550F X2, 78 550K, 77 750F X2, 78 750F, 79CX500, 85 700SC, GL1100

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Offline SteveD CB500F

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Re: Just won a GEREX electronic ignition!
« Reply #8 on: May 26, 2006, 12:07:49 PM »
Thanks for that Lloyd.  I started responding to Adam's question and was just too bloody stubborn to quit (even though my knowledge of ignition systems is based upon a 30 year old engineering degree and what I've picked up from this forum!)

So.   If you switch on the ignition (as you do) and one set of points is closed, will the whole 17 amps be demanded from the battery until you thumb the starter? (and demand even more power from the poor thing)?
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Offline hcritz

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Re: Just won a GEREX electronic ignition!
« Reply #9 on: May 26, 2006, 12:14:51 PM »
Hey guys...
Very interesting thread...
I would guess that with "electronic" points...Hall effect sensor I would assume...there wouldn't be any draw until there was motion to trigger the device.

Offline TwoTired

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Re: Just won a GEREX electronic ignition!
« Reply #10 on: May 26, 2006, 12:39:09 PM »
So.   If you switch on the ignition (as you do) and one set of points is closed, will the whole 17 amps be demanded from the battery until you thumb the starter? (and demand even more power from the poor thing)?

Well, yes.  But, I think 3 or perhaps 2 ohm ohm coils is the practical lower limit for function with points.  Melting, burned, charred bits, and all that.  Lower resitance than that and a chunk of silicon ought to control the primary power to the coils.  Each point set only remains closed for about 95 degrees of crankshaft rotation.  Current draw only occurs at about 26% duty cycle for each contact while the engine is running.   With a silicon switch device, you can lower that current duty cycle more, depending on the time required to saturate the permeable core of the coil, which has to be shorter than the firing frequency or RPM of the motor.

Kinda funny actually.  I know all this stuff about ignitions and how to improve them.  And still, I use points in my SOHC4s! ;D ;D ;D
Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
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Offline hcritz

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Re: Just won a GEREX electronic ignition!
« Reply #11 on: May 26, 2006, 12:46:16 PM »
Hey T-T...
I agree...not as knowlegable as you...but understand the theory of operation...and I still have points...
I do worry about them sometime...but If something happens...with a screwdriver and a knife...I can probably get back on the road...with the Electronic ones they usually just DIE! Leaving you sparkless.

Offline SteveD CB500F

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Re: Just won a GEREX electronic ignition!
« Reply #12 on: May 26, 2006, 12:56:32 PM »
[And still, I use points in my SOHC4s! ;D ;D ;D

Me too!
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Offline hcritz

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Re: Just won a GEREX electronic ignition!
« Reply #13 on: May 26, 2006, 01:01:27 PM »
There is something to be said for keeping it simple!
My old scoot cranks and runs beautifully even with the weak old timey spark.
Probably should keep a spare set of point and condenser under the seat though!

amattel

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Re: Just won a GEREX electronic ignition!
« Reply #14 on: May 26, 2006, 06:56:20 PM »
thanks TT for the lesson... 

So here's my questions:   .8 ohm primary may overtax my electrical system...  If the Gerex ECU was designed to run with .8 ohm will it be detrimental to run it with 1.5 or 3 ohm?  Are all these different coils interchangeable with the only difference being how much current they draw? What do they mean when they talk aboput running coils that are matched in resistance to the ecu unit?

Perhaps it won't be as efficient (not sure why), but if it works with no harm done, I have my ebay sights on a set of hi-perf coils meant for cb750 that I may snag though the seller doesn't know their resistance rating... 

Can I get an accurate reading measuring the resistance with a multimeter on the coil's primary?  Would that reading match what the manufacturer would market them as?

adam,
maybe the guy who bought the coils is looking for an ignition...

That is TOOOOO funny  ;D ;D ;D

Adam

Offline TwoTired

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Re: Just won a GEREX electronic ignition!
« Reply #15 on: May 26, 2006, 07:30:35 PM »
The big unknown is whether the Gerex uses energy stored in the coil to fire the plugs, or if it merely needs a the coils to step up the voltage.  This will determine the coil type you need for it to work properly.

The primary resistance only tells part of the story, the current draw requirements.  From that isolated standpoint, a higher resistance primary than what the Gerex expects, will not damage its internal switch.  However, it is likely that the voltage to the spark plugs will be less than what Gerex originally intended.  This will effect the spark gap setting you can run with it.

Perhaps you should expalin just why you think the Gerex is so advantageous to use?  Bigger spark gap? Higher compression environment? Higher RPM capability.  Ecomomy?

Were it in my possession, I would fit it to the bike and characterize the output pulses using an oscilloscope.  This would determine what coil type to use, and whether a stock or equivalent storage type is required or a special Gerex coil or similar.

Also, depending on how smart the Gerex unit is as a points replacement, the average current draw even with .8 ohm coils may still be under 2 -3 amps.

Got a schematic or a therory of operation for the unit?  Without that or some test data on the unit, it's all wild guesses about what it does and what will work with it properly.

Cheers,
Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
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amattel

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Re: Just won a GEREX electronic ignition!
« Reply #16 on: May 26, 2006, 08:00:08 PM »
Well...  this was an "intuitive" purchase  ;D

I don't mind experimenting with what I find on ebay because I know I can turn it right around and sell it again easily.

Another motivation in my purchasing this is that whether or not It works out to use it on my bike, I will learn a ton researching and discussing it...  this is the main way I learn these days.

then there is also the COOL factor of using period performance pieces on my bike.

Here is what my CLymer manual says about the gerex cdi, "This is one of the few cdi systems that will noticeably increase engine power.  The Gerex uses magnetic impulse firing, producing a prolonged series of sparks rather than a single spark.  It's expensive, but very reliable.  As with the RC or Martek cdi's, its a set and forget item.  Gerex also makes a super quality racer-only cdi."

Magnetic impulse firing - does this answer the question of what sort of coils it needs?

Here is the ebay ad of the coils the went with it
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Multifire-Coils-CB750-GS750-KZ1000-KZ900-GS1000-CB-750_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQcategoryZ10066QQitemZ4642258620QQrdZ1
they are multifire coils...  I am not famililar with them.  I have included a picture below.

In their day, Gerex were the top of the line ignitions - but their day was 20 years ago.

I'm not sure of the coil resistance requirements for your setup. I removed a Gerex system from one of my bikes last year (it finally failed after many years of service). The coils were matched to the ignition - 0.8ohm coils - very, very low resistance coils.

Does what Jeff says here about the coils he found wiht the gerex he removed help us to determine what type of coil is needed?

I am fishing here, becuase  I am not sure what might be a clue to give me the info I need.

thanks,

Adam

Offline Bodi

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Re: Just won a GEREX electronic ignition!
« Reply #17 on: May 26, 2006, 08:20:06 PM »
The coil resistance is only a factor in battery drain with a Kettering system whether its fired by points or an electronic box like the Dyna or Martek (etc). This system can NOT do multispark, which seems to be a Gerex feature; so the Gerex is not using the coils in the same way a Kettering system does, storing energy as magnetic field by being powered through most of the engine's 4-stroke cycle.
Multispark systems use the coil as a straight transformer, stepping up a voltage pulse to the high voltage needed at the spark plug. The MSD automotive multispark system used in hot rods in the 60's steps up the battery voltage and supplies pulses of about 300VDC to the stock coils; they work pretty good as transformers with 100:1 to 200:1 voltage ratios.
If you want to do multispark with lower input voltage you need a higher voltage ratio, possibly this is what your system does hence the special coils. As a rule, low primary impedance coils are designed for CDI or multispark ignitions, these both use the coil as a transformer rather than as an energy store.
I would try the stock coils first to see what you get. You can call Dyna and ask if the low impedance coils are for CDI systems, I'm certain they are. A CDI coil should work fine for a multispark system.

Offline MRieck

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Re: Just won a GEREX electronic ignition!
« Reply #18 on: May 26, 2006, 09:04:50 PM »
The coil resistance is only a factor in battery drain with a Kettering system whether its fired by points or an electronic box like the Dyna or Martek (etc). This system can NOT do multispark, which seems to be a Gerex feature; so the Gerex is not using the coils in the same way a Kettering system does, storing energy as magnetic field by being powered through most of the engine's 4-stroke cycle.
Multispark systems use the coil as a straight transformer, stepping up a voltage pulse to the high voltage needed at the spark plug. The MSD automotive multispark system used in hot rods in the 60's steps up the battery voltage and supplies pulses of about 300VDC to the stock coils; they work pretty good as transformers with 100:1 to 200:1 voltage ratios.
If you want to do multispark with lower input voltage you need a higher voltage ratio, possibly this is what your system does hence the special coils. As a rule, low primary impedance coils are designed for CDI or multispark ignitions, these both use the coil as a transformer rather than as an energy store.
I would try the stock coils first to see what you get. You can call Dyna and ask if the low impedance coils are for CDI systems, I'm certain they are. A CDI coil should work fine for a multispark system.
Yes. Excellent explanation Bodi
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amattel

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Re: Just won a GEREX electronic ignition!
« Reply #19 on: May 26, 2006, 09:17:34 PM »
Thanks bodi.

I feel more comfortable with my experiment, now.

Adam

Offline TwoTired

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Re: Just won a GEREX electronic ignition!
« Reply #20 on: May 27, 2006, 12:54:41 AM »
It's a CDI?  Pretty cool find there Adam!  Ought to work with just about any coil.

Didn't know anyone made a CDI for an SOHC4.  I'm envious.

Zap a 12 V coil with 300V instead of 12V, gives you a rip roarin spark.  You can probably open your spark gap up to .035 inch.

Cheers,
Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
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Offline Terry in Australia

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Re: Just won a GEREX electronic ignition!
« Reply #21 on: May 27, 2006, 01:42:45 AM »
Mmmnn, I likey that RC ignition! I do prefer EI's, but that thing looks cool! I betcha it goes for a bomb! ;D
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Offline oldbiker

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Re: Just won a GEREX electronic ignition!
« Reply #22 on: May 28, 2006, 12:47:40 AM »
If it's a CDI system then the coils are not connected directly to the battery. An electronic converter boosts the 12v to some 300-400 volts which charge a capacitor. This is then discharged through the coil by a Thyristor which is switched at the right moment to fire the cylinder. This switching can be done either by the original points, an infra red/led switch or a Hall effect device. The main thing is that coils of 0.7 ohm resistance/impedance are not drawing 17 amps from the battery.

amattel

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Re: Just won a GEREX electronic ignition!
« Reply #23 on: May 28, 2006, 09:25:59 AM »
So it seems as though the only difference using different coils will make is to perhaps generate more voltage at the plug?

WHat is the practical difference of my using .7 , 1.5, 2.2, 3.0, 4.0, or 5.0 ohm coils?

The cdi is on the way, but I am on the verge of buying coils for it.

MY current options are:

1.  Dynas (either .7, 1.5, 2.2, or 3) for $120 from Jeff at Z1.

2.  Am looking at a set of used Andrews yellow/orange hi perf coils (don't know resistance).  these look to be in nice shape, but hte seller doesn't have a clue as to their specs.  If someone were to be familiar with older andrews coils I would think the color would be a clue.  the picture of these is below in case anyone recognizes them and can chare the specs with me.

3.  Another used set of Andrews coils (blue 4 ohm)

4.  a used set of dyna 3 ohm coils.

My understanding is that coils seem pretty bulletproof so I am totally fine with picking htem up used and saving $50-75.  Is this true?

thanks for all the info,

Adam


« Last Edit: May 28, 2006, 09:29:42 AM by Adam »

Offline oldbiker

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Re: Just won a GEREX electronic ignition!
« Reply #24 on: May 29, 2006, 12:52:45 AM »
When the capacitor discharges through the coil, the time contant for the coils is given by L divided by R where L is the inductance of the coil and R is the resistance. This means that the lower the resitance the quicker the discharge. This helps to give a good fat spark. There are obviously other factors but I've tried to give a simple explanation to a quite complex problem.