Topic: Upcoming fuel changes: not so good...

[HondaMan]

I received this today via the AMA. It seems the EPA would like to legislate anything older than 2007 off the road...this is a situation where you can contact your congress persons locally and tell them to stop it. Maybe give it a try?

In the meantime, be sure to get some top oil for your carry-on pack for this season's riding, in case it happens.
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> House Committee action on bill to require EPA to seek independent scientific analysis on the effects of 15 percent ethanol
> Take Action!
>
> Urge your Representative to support today!
>
> On February 7, 2012, the House Committee on Science, Space and Technology will vote on H.R. 3199, introduced by Representative Jim Sensenbrenner (R-WI) on October 14, 2011. This bill would require the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) to seek independent scientific analysis on the effects of 15 percent ethanol blend (E15) gasoline.
> To watch a live webcast of the markup, click here.
>
> "The EPA's decision to allow E15 into the marketplace will impact every American who owns a car, lawnmower or boat," Sensenbrenner said. Automakers insist that using E15 will void warranties, lower fuel efficiency and cause premature engine failure. In off-road engines, the effects can even be dangerous for users.
>
> "There are serious concerns that the EPA used only one Department of Energy test and rushed E15's introduction into the marketplace," Sensenbrenner said. "This test was limited in scope and ignored a plethora of evidence – albeit inconvenient evidence for the EPA – that shows E15 gasoline has a negative effect on engines."
>
> The new E15 gasoline formulation may appear at a fueling station near you and you need to be careful where you use this new fuel blend. That is because the EPA, in October 2010, approved E15 for use in model year 2007 and newer light duty vehicles (cars, light-duty trucks, and medium-duty passenger vehicles). In January 2011, it added model year 2001-2006 light duty vehicles to the approved list.
>
> Riders should pay attention to this list because no motorcycles or ATVs are currently listed.
>
> The American Motorcyclist Association (AMA) is concerned about E15 because it burns hotter than gasoline that contains a lesser amount of ethanol. In engines not designed to dissipate that extra heat, damage in the form of premature wear can result. Although this is a concern in all motorcycles, it's particularly problematic for air-cooled engines found in many bikes. Moreover, use of E15 may even void the manufacturer warranty.
>
> Since the approved list includes many light-duty vehicles in use today, refineries, distributors, and fueling stations may choose to offer primarily E15 gasoline because of this action by the EPA. This should concern all motorcyclists and off-highway enthusiasts since this may affect the availability of gasoline with less or no ethanol (E10 or E0).
>
> We need your help to pass H.R. 3199. You can find contact information for your Representative at AmericanMotorcyclist.com > Rights > Issues & Legislation, then enter your zip code in the "Find your Officials" box. A prewritten e-mail is available for you to send to your federal elected official immediately by following the "Take Action" option and entering your information.
>
> In a previous AMA alert, Representative Sensenbrenner also introduced H.R. 748. This bill would prohibit the Administrator of the EPA from authorizing the use of gasoline containing greater than 10 percent ethanol in certain vehicles. For more information on H.R. 748, click here.
>
> Again, the AMA urges you to write your Representative today and ask them to support H.R. 748 and H.R. 3199.
>
> For a detailed analysis of this issue, including access to related documents, please sign up to be an AMA Defender member at AmericanMotorcyclist.com/membership/join. Defender members who sign up to receive Action Alerts automatically receive the detailed analysis.
>
> If you are an AMA member, thank you for your support. If you aren't a member, please consider joining. More members means more clout and your support helps the AMA fight for your rights – on the road, trail and in the halls of government. To join, go to AmericanMotorcyclist.com/membership/join.
>
> AmericanMotorcyclist.com
> Alert Center

[dave500]

its going the other way here in australia,E10 hasnt really caught on and has had a bad rap from day one when ever that was?we never endured the savage smog laws that california had either,close enough to it but a lot more easy,,like no yearly tests either,i cant remember even seeing an air pump on a motor here?we had egr and lean burn systems through the 80s,,fuel injection really made a big difference for the better in cars i think,it did away with some of the most restrictive power robbing systems,ive always liked the pcv system though so long as the engine isnt worn out.

[grumpy]

"top oil" ?

[dave500]

removing lead from fuel was actually a good thing not just for the air but for cars overall!exhaust systems and spark plugs last much longer,and less cylinder and valve seat deposits grumpy.

[MoMo]

I had heard this but thought I had also heard that it had already been blocked?...Larry

[grcamna2]

Thanks for the "Heads Up" HondaMan...I need to renew my membership to AMA so I know what my rights as a motyorcyclist are; I didn't think they would put "more" Ethanol in fuel  ,...I was kind of hoping they would take more out.

dave500,
     Do they still manufacture Firezone oil for the top oiling of engines there "Down Under" ?? I've used that before and noticed a bit more power from increased compression seal.

[Jeff.Saunders]

Ethanol in fuel is a much bigger issue than most of you realize.

We've been sourcing o-rings and other rubber parts for a while.  As part of our quality assurance process we expose the various rubber parts to the chemicals they routinely come into contact with (gasoline, oil, DOT 3 brake fluid, etc).  After one batch of o-rings soaked in gasoline swelled up to nearly double the size, the sample manufacturer said they just used the same rubber as the OEM sample we'd sent them.  So we tried the same thing and sure enough genuine OEM o-rings, gas cap seals and other parts all swelled up a crazy amount when exposed to gasoline with ethanol.  Not good.  THis is a case where some NOS parts are inferior to some of the newer generation aftermarket parts that use Viton or similar compounds.

Many o-rings are designed to swell a small amount as that helps fill the voids - but when the grow such a radical amount, they will not seal effectively. 

[Bluto]

Someone please elaborate on what additives we can use... (top oil)..What's that???  What will help our bikes handle this?  The Guvment is gonna do whatever they want to do......hopefully there are or will be fuel additives that will help.

[GammaFlat]

Top Oil: I believe the "top oil" that's being mentioned is something you add to your gas to help lubricate your valves and cool your combustion chamber.  I think Marvel Mystery Oil falls in that category.  There are others.  I think HondaMan has another that is his favored solution...  I don't recall what it was. 

Lead: I don't think this topic is directly about the lead.  It's more about the % of ethanol. 

[lrutt]

Actually, the ethanol subsidies have experied from what I've heard and some states (including Florida) are considering legislation that would allow more stations to carry straight gas, no ethanol. As I understand it would actually be cheaper. So check with your state gov and if they are working something like that, support it.

I myself pay extra and buy fuel at the marina that is ethanol free. I only run this in all my old bikes and old cars. They run a lot better and the fuel lines don't seem to harden up near as fast with straight gas.

As for 'the mix'. I mix premium fuel, stabil (green), and 2 stroke oil (100 to 1) in 5 gallon cans. I run that i all the old bikes and my old MG. No problems fouling plugs as these new 2 stroke oils burn very cleanly, but it sure keeps everything lubed up, including petcocks etc. Just an FYI.

[cbr954]

I will not run even 10% ethanol in anything unless it is designed for E85.  I was an auto mechanic and have replaced many intake gaskets, fuel pumps, injectors, etc from people running ethanol fuels in there vehicles.  We also had a lot of vapor lock hot start problems in the summer.   GM had service bulletins for intake gasket failures due to ethanol fuels swelling the rubber seals on the gaskets.  I see nothing good from ethanol fuels except it made me money having to fix the problems it caused.

[Gordon]

If/when it gets to the point where I can only get 15% ethanol blend, I'll just start separating my own ethanol free gas at home.  Fill 7 gallon glass carboy with ethanol blend, mix in a little water, let the water and ethanol separate and sink to the bottom and siphon the clean gas off the top. 

[HondaMan]

If/when it gets to the point where I can only get 15% ethanol blend, I'll just start separating my own ethanol free gas at home.  Fill 7 gallon glass carboy with ethanol blend, mix in a little water, let the water and ethanol separate and sink to the bottom and siphon the clean gas off the top. 

Excellent approach, "G"! This is what rusts so many of our gas tanks, already.

The Top Oil products available today (here in CO, anyway) are from Bardahl, Marvel Mystery Oil, or [regular] diesel (not bio-diesel). You can also use almost any 5w oil, if you find it in straight-weight, as this will not have the long polymer chains that make it multi-viscosity (which collects in your ring lands over time, if burned). Of these, I have so far found that Marvel mixes OK with the ethanol, as does the 5w oil. The Bardahl seems to make tiny little balls in it which can be seen in the tank, floating.

I use about 1 oz per tankful when I fill up at the Reserve mark. I first started this when lead was removed from the gas: this may have something to do with the still-excellent valve guides, stems, and rings on my engine. The valves and guides are original, with less than 0.002" wear at 140,000 miles, and the rings had over 88k miles on them when I pulled the engine apart in 2005 (for inspection, replaced the rings then), with full compression.

[HondaMan]

Ethanol in fuel is a much bigger issue than most of you realize.

We've been sourcing o-rings and other rubber parts for a while.  As part of our quality assurance process we expose the various rubber parts to the chemicals they routinely come into contact with (gasoline, oil, DOT 3 brake fluid, etc).  After one batch of o-rings soaked in gasoline swelled up to nearly double the size, the sample manufacturer said they just used the same rubber as the OEM sample we'd sent them.  So we tried the same thing and sure enough genuine OEM o-rings, gas cap seals and other parts all swelled up a crazy amount when exposed to gasoline with ethanol.  Not good.  THis is a case where some NOS parts are inferior to some of the newer generation aftermarket parts that use Viton or similar compounds.

Many o-rings are designed to swell a small amount as that helps fill the voids - but when the grow such a radical amount, they will not seal effectively. 

Excellent point, Jeff: I get a lot of carbs for rebuild that suffer fuels leaks that are due to ruined O-rings and bowl gaskets. Nothing else is wrong with the carbs beyond that.

[spot45]

I have been doing that for years with all my old bikes when I can't leaded fuel.  But I have gotten the word out to all my air head friends, so I am hoping that they do something.  Because this is definitely going to produce a lot of engine siezures.

[Accolay]

So basically we're worried that the EPA is going to approve E15 for use with Model Year 2001 and below vehicles and get rid of non ethanol gas altogether?

Isn't the bill H.R.3199 objecting to the EPA rule because of vehicles year 2001 and later? ...Not that I'm necessarily a fan of ethanol gas for various reasons though...

[Bob Wessner]

As far as I know, the bill calls for study and evaluation of the impacts of increasing beyond the current E10 level.

[grumpy]

Wait a minute....

Congress just ENDED federal ethanol subsidies that equated to about $0.45/gal.
So if the price at the pump of blended fuel is no longer held artificially low then nobody is gonna buy it. Right?
Seems like that would price blended fuel out of the market really quickly,.

So, what am I missing?

[spot45]

You are missing an earlier bill that was passed during the Bush administration that allowed for regional gasoline blends.  What they are trying to do is approve E15 for those parts of the country with E10 blends.  What they mean by approval for testing is that it is going to be put in place in certain parts of the country, where E10 is currently in use, namely the northeast and the midwest.  Then based on the results of those parts of the country it will become nationwide.   In case you haven't forgotten that this is an ELECTION YEAR and our members of congress are trying to get REELECTED.  IF you want to be elected PRESIDENT of the United States you need to carry Iowa, Missouri and Kansas,etc.   So by letting your member of congress know that YOU WILL Vote them OUT of OFFICE if they vote YES for this has a lot of impact, especially when they want to keep their job.

[grcamna2]

You are missing an earlier bill that was passed during the Bush administration that allowed for regional gasoline blends.  What they are trying to do is approve E15 for those parts of the country with E10 blends.  What they mean by approval for testing is that it is going to be put in place in certain parts of the country, where E10 is currently in use, namely the northeast and the midwest.  Then based on the results of those parts of the country it will become nationwide.   In case you haven't forgotten that this is an ELECTION YEAR and our members of congress are trying to get REELECTED.  IF you want to be elected PRESIDENT of the United States you need to carry Iowa, Missouri and Kansas,etc.   So by letting your member of congress know that YOU WILL Vote them OUT of OFFICE if they vote YES for this has a lot of impact, especially when they want to keep their job.

I'm with you on that spot45.  ...my vote counts.

[nomad]

So by letting your member of congress know that YOU WILL Vote them OUT of OFFICE if they vote YES for this has a lot of impact, especially when they want to keep their job.

"On February 7, 2012, the House Committee on Science, Space and Technology will vote on H.R. 3199, introduced by Representative Jim Sensenbrenner (R-WI) on October 14, 2011. This bill would require the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) to seek independent scientific analysis on the effects of 15 percent ethanol blend (E15) gasoline."

"There are serious concerns that the EPA used only one Department of Energy test and rushed E15's introduction into the marketplace," Sensenbrenner said. "This test was limited in scope and ignored a plethora of evidence – albeit inconvenient evidence for the EPA – that shows E15 gasoline has a negative effect on engines."

"We need your help to pass H.R. 3199. You can find contact information for your Representative at AmericanMotorcyclist.com"

Either I'm reading something wrong or I'm terribly confused (wouldn't be the first time... ask my wife).  Basically, congress is saying it doesn't trust the EPA's findings that E15 is good for our engines.  They're saying that they want further, independent tests to prove the EPA is full of excrement on this issue.  Don't we want them to vote YES on this particular piece of E15 legislation (H.R. 3199)?

Now, if we could just vote out the heads of the EPA, we'd be golden.  I think we're so use to our elected officials making dumb decisions that when they do something that makes sense, it confuses us. 

[HonderCB]

As a producer, it's suprising how mis-informed some people in this country are about corn (or the other foods they consume for that matter).

Your assesments of ethanol, however, are generally accurate and justified.  Everything from the affect on older engines, to the energy required to produce the ethanol itself is a problem.  And like I said, I am a producer, my standard of living is directly linked to the price of corn, so you would think i would be behind ethanol 100% but I'm not.

[Rgconner]

As for 'the mix'. I mix premium fuel, stabil (green), and 2 stroke oil (100 to 1) in 5 gallon cans. I run that i all the old bikes and my old MG. No problems fouling plugs as these new 2 stroke oils burn very cleanly, but it sure keeps everything lubed up, including petcocks etc. Just an FYI.

That was my thought, a little 2-stroke oil (Belray and Redline burn very clean) in the gas and it would help keep the temps down and lubricate better.

Oh, and it would shove more pollutants in the air... thanks EPA for the unintended consequences!

[Accolay]

I'm still not sure I understand what's going on here. The bill was introduced to have independent study for the vehicles from 2001-2006 that have been recently granted a waiver for use of E15, right?

The EPA isn't saying that vehicles before 2001 should use ethanol blended gasoline at all. Are we getting worked up over nothing or do we fear that all gasoline will eventually be E15?

[Rgconner]

My "representatives" are Boxer, Fienstien and Matsui.

Fat lot of good writing to them will do me.