Author Topic: Phantom power drain  (Read 3790 times)

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Offline Patrick

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Phantom power drain
« on: June 04, 2006, 07:48:40 AM »
1975 CB750K. With the lights off, it charges 14.5-14.6 at 4,000 rpm at the battery. With the lights on, it charges at about 13.3 at the battery. With no headlight installed, the results are the same. I have removed the headlight and disconnected both the front and rear blinkers and I get the same result. The brake light seems to have no effect on the charging when the lights are off. When I ride, it starts off great, running smooth and powerful. On the highway there is no problem. When I have to drive anywhere where the rpm drops however, like in the city, the bike starts running crappy at low rpm after about 30 minutes. I figure that's when it is using the battery to supplement the magneto output since if I keep it above 3,000 rpm it keeps running and seems to fire fine. Short of tracing all the wires and looking for a short or bad connection, can anyone suggest a component I might have overlooked? A main draw other than the lights that is only drawing when the lights are on? Could it be the light switch itself? 

Thanks.
1970 CB750 K0
1982 VF750S Sabre
1987 VT1100 Shadow
1979 Yamaha XS11
1969 Yamaha DT1B
etc.

Offline TwoTired

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Re: Phantom power drain
« Reply #1 on: June 04, 2006, 10:17:19 AM »
If I were troubleshooting this in person I would want these questions asked:

1- What is the wattage of the headlight? (Are you saying the 13.3 happens with the headlight removed from circuit and 4000 RPM?)
2- Are all the diodes in the rectifier functioning?
3- What is the resistance of the field coil? (At the coil and from the regulator connector.)
4- What is the resistance of the stator coil?
5- Were all the voltage readings taken with the battery at full charge?
6- What is the voltage on the black wire at the regulator with the lights on and off? 
       (Use local green as the ground reference first, then battery negative terminal)
7- What is the voltage on the white wire at the regulator with the lights on and off?

Cheers,


Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
72 500, 74 550, 75 550K, 75 550F, 76 550F, 77 550F X2, 78 550K, 77 750F X2, 78 750F, 79CX500, 85 700SC, GL1100

Those that learn from history are doomed to repeat it by those that don't learn from history.

Offline Patrick

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Re: Phantom power drain
« Reply #2 on: June 04, 2006, 11:27:08 AM »
Thanks for replying TT. This is actually a resumption of a search I began in April. At the time I was getting only 13.4 volts at the battery with the lights off, so I got a used voltage regulator on Ebay and it took a while for it to arrive. That, with my son't graduation and the requisite housecleaning to get ready for the out of town guests coming for thevent (which was very similar to an archeological dig, except digs are more carefully done and don't find things as ancient as our cleaning efforts) caused the repair project to be postponed a bit. I know that was the wrong thing to do, delaying work on my cycle just for special events and company, and I have been talking to my wife about her priorities.

But I digress.

Anyway, in answer to your inquiries, all readings were taken with the battery fresh from the battery charger and at a full charge. Running readings were taken after starting the bike with the kicker (it started very easilly with, like, half an arc).

With the new used voltage regulator the readings are as listed above. Additionally:

1: I think the wattage on the headlight is 55/60, but I put it in last year and I don't precisely remember and the markings on it may as well be Cyrrillic. It is a new 7" Phillips halogen. The running readings reported in my first post for voltage at the battery were taken both with the headlight in the bike and with it removed from the bike. They are the same with the headlight in and with the headlight removed. I also have a vintage Vettor fairing on the front of the bike which the headlight is mounted in. The voltage readings also were taken with the fairing wiring harness connected and disconnected. Again, they were consistent whether the fairing was connected to the system or not (I suspected the fairing wiring harness early on). I think this eliminates the headlight as the culprit. You are far more knowledgable of the intricacies of electricity than I. Do you agree?

2. I don't know how to check the rectifier. I actually hope it comes down to this part because I have a new one en route that I just happened to stumble onto at a great price. Tell me how and I'll check the one that's in there.

3. Resistance across the yellow wires from the alternator are 1.1 ohms across all three (two at a time, of course). I know that's high, but I did not adjust for the resistance in the tester and I figured since they were all the same that the field coil is OK.

4. Is testing the stator different than the test I just described? Sorry for the possibly dumb question.

5. Resting voltage reading at the battery is 13.2 The others is as follows:

Black wire at voltage regulator to green wire at voltage regulator: 11.8 with the lights off and 10.4 with the lights on (the headlight is back in and operating)

Black wire at VR to battery negative terminal: 11.82 w/o  lights, 10.55 with lights

White wire at VR to green wire at VR:  11.21 w/o lights, 9.99 with lights

White wire to battery 11.19 w/o lights, 10.04 with lights


All voltage readings were taken with a new Craftsman multi meter. The alternator reistance readings were taken in April with an ancient, ancient Craftsman ohmeter. So ancient I swear it has stone parts.

Do these tell you anything?

Thanks.



1970 CB750 K0
1982 VF750S Sabre
1987 VT1100 Shadow
1979 Yamaha XS11
1969 Yamaha DT1B
etc.

Offline HondaMan

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Re: Phantom power drain
« Reply #3 on: June 04, 2006, 11:54:51 AM »
One thing you didn't mention: does the battery voltage drop after its been running 30 minutes?

Reason I ask, tight intake valves will give this same symptom, as far as the running is concerned.

You can use that Stonehenge meter to check the rectifier: each diode conducts current just one way in the stack. Touch the connector pins to "reach" the diodes. All should read like an open circuit in one direction, low resistance in the other, and they should all be within 10% of each other's readings.
See SOHC4shop.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
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Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

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Offline TwoTired

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Re: Phantom power drain
« Reply #4 on: June 04, 2006, 03:57:12 PM »
1: I think this eliminates the headlight as the culprit. Do you agree?

 yes. But I reserve final judgement till the real culprit is found.  ;)

2. I don't know how to check the rectifier. Tell me how and I'll check the one that's in there.

The regulator has it's own plug into the harness.  Unplug it and look at bright shiny connector terminals.  Don't get mesmerized. What? They aren't bright and shiny?  Make them so.
 You'll find that green, red/wht, and yellow wires go to it.  You will measure resistance from green to each yellow, red/wht to each yellow then reverse the meter polarity and do it all over again.  You should find six measurements that give you continuity and six that don't.

3. Resistance across the yellow wires from the alternator are 1.1 ohms across all three (two at a time, of course). I know that's high, but I did not adjust for the resistance in the tester and I figured since they were all the same that the field coil is OK.

4. Is testing the stator different than the test I just described? Sorry for the possibly dumb question.

The yellow wires are the alternator stator.  White and green wires attached to the regulator is the alternator field.  You're looking for 7.2 ohms. (subtract out meter measurement error.)

5. Resting voltage reading at the battery is 13.2 The others is as follows:

Black wire at voltage regulator to green wire at voltage regulator: 11.8 with the lights off and 10.4 with the lights on (the headlight is back in and operating)

Black wire at VR to battery negative terminal: 11.82 w/o  lights, 10.55 with lights

White wire at VR to green wire at VR:  11.21 w/o lights, 9.99 with lights

White wire to battery 11.19 w/o lights, 10.04 with lights

The black wire at the regulator is connected to the battery positive terminal when the ignition switch is on.  The readings given indicate you are losing 2-3 volts in connections and switches between those two points.  This is dismal performance for a media that strives for zero loss.
Go ahead and measure voltage loss between the battery positive terminal and the vreg black or white wire. (hope for zero)
Also measure the voltage loss between the battery negative terminal and the green wire at the regulator. (hope for zero)

The white wire is the field coil which creates a magnetic field in the alternator.  The strength of this field and the spinning of the rotor determine the output power of the alternator.    If it can't get full battery power to the field, the alternator can't make the full 210 watts at 5000 RPM.

The alternator resistance readings were taken in April with an ancient, ancient Craftsman ohmmeter. So ancient I swear it has stone parts.

Cool.  Solid state!

Do these tell you anything?

Getting there.  We are still in the discovery process, gathering data.  There are definitely aberrations, but it is too soon to pounce.

So far, I'm guessing you have a lot of connections/ terminals / switches to clean.
 The high stator readings are of concern if accurate.  Did you check for shorts of yellow wire continuity to the engine case?
Need rectifier data, and field coil resistance to eliminate major component faults.

Cheers,
Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
72 500, 74 550, 75 550K, 75 550F, 76 550F, 77 550F X2, 78 550K, 77 750F X2, 78 750F, 79CX500, 85 700SC, GL1100

Those that learn from history are doomed to repeat it by those that don't learn from history.

Offline Patrick

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Re: Phantom power drain
« Reply #5 on: June 04, 2006, 04:35:43 PM »
Thanks, y'all. I'm on it. I get back with more readings in a day or so. Gotta fire up the old Craftsman ohmmeter again. It can be tough to get that old beast going. What with shoveling the coal in the fire box and all, it's a lot of work.....
1970 CB750 K0
1982 VF750S Sabre
1987 VT1100 Shadow
1979 Yamaha XS11
1969 Yamaha DT1B
etc.

Offline Patrick

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Re: Phantom power drain
« Reply #6 on: June 05, 2006, 05:12:39 PM »
Hi TT and Hondamanl. Got some new numbers.

1. Rectifier - Not absolutely sure I did this testing right, and I didn't write anything down because I was looking for reaction, not straight numbers. When I touch the red probe to one side and check resistance to the yellow wires it goes very high, 100 or more. When I touch the black to that same side I can get no reaction from the yellow wires. Vice versa on the other side, Black goes very high, red no reaction. This is the new, used rectifier I picked up. The old one looked a touch melted and gave me similar resistance reactions, but the high numbers varied widely, between about 60 and 195.

2. Field coil - resistance between white wire and green wire is 6.8. Same with white wire to frame.

3. I cleaned (150 grit sandpaper) the positive battery cable connector (who knew if was brass?) and the bullet connection on the red and yellow wire off the battery. I also dragged some sandpaper through the main fuse clamp. Now I test 12.24 volts at the battery (it's been on quite a while while I messed with everything). It tests 11.64 at the black wire at the vreg and 11.24 at the white wire. I thought both should test the same? Does this mean I have issues with my vreg? I cleaned all three connectors on the vreg - 150 grit sandpapered the male ends, contact cleaner on the female connectors. Do you ave a good method for cleaning out those female ends? The contact cleaner had some effect, but we're talking 30+ years of grime and corrosion.

Anyway, I haven't tried a running voltage test again, yet. I still haven't found anything that would seemed to be draining, unless it was the rectifier. I regained some sitting voltage, but I figure I've got a bunch more connectors to clean before I run it again.

Any thoughts?

Thanks,
Patrick
1970 CB750 K0
1982 VF750S Sabre
1987 VT1100 Shadow
1979 Yamaha XS11
1969 Yamaha DT1B
etc.

Offline TwoTired

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Re: Phantom power drain
« Reply #7 on: June 05, 2006, 10:13:58 PM »
Your rectifier might be good, I can't tell for certain with the data you've given.

Some notes on resistance.  Low resistance means values approaching zero ohms.  High resistances are larger numbers with infinity being the upper limit.

What meter are you using for resistance checks?  Modern meters usually have a diode symbol range setting.  This setting puts extra power into the circuit under test so that diodes have enough to conduct when forward biased.  Other ranges won't have enough power to turn the diode on and it may read open with both polarities.  This is not an issue with the old coal fired ohmmeters. ;)  Their measuring circuits aren't very sensitive, so they put plenty of power into the circuits they test.

Field coil looks good.

Don't worry about the regulator yet.  Yes, in theory the black and white should test the same.  There are contacts inside that spark when interrupting current flow.  This action can actually improve contact resistance as well as degrade it.  We'll revisit those contacts after we start getting 14.5 V regulation and the vreg is doing some contact chattering rather than simply passing system voltage to the field coil.

Quick lesson.
The amount of voltage lost through a high resistance connection is directly proportional to the current passing though it.  It is a function of ohms law.  E (voltage) = I (current) X R ( resistance)

Example:  lets use a constant 12V source, a known 0.1 ohm connection resistance and a load device that consumes either 10 amps or 1 amp.

When 1 amp is selected, the voltage loss through the connection is 0.1 volt. The load device sees 11.9 V of the source 12 V.
When 10 amps is selected, the voltage loss through the connection is 1.0 volt. The load device sees 11.0 V of the source 12 V.

Now imagine that there are ten connections between the power source and the load device.

When the 1 amp load is selected, the total voltage loss through ten connections is 1.0 volts. The load device sees 11.0 V of the source 12 V.
When 10 amps is selected, the voltage loss through ten connections is 10.0 volts. The load device sees 2.0 V of the source 12 V.

In reality your headlight, or for that matter, most all of the power consumers on your bike are not constant current loads, but draw commensurate with the voltage they receive.  Your 60 Watt headlight, for example will draw 5 amps when fed 12 Volts.  It will draw 4.2 Amps when fed 10 V and produce light like a 42 watt headlight.

Your immediate concern is that the black wire off the ignition switch is somewhere in the middle of your 10 or more series of connections shared with other devices.  As long as your connectors and switches provide non-zero in-line resistance, the total operating load placed on the black wires is going to change the voltage readings you take.

In other words, when you make voltage readings to compare to previous tests, make sure the load conditions are the same.  And, just to make it more interesting, note that the voltage of the battery drops as it depletes.  So, to know the voltage drop at load, you need to always compare to the "right now" voltage at the battery.

The reason why I explained this is that the new voltage readings in your recent message can only be compared to ones from your previous post, if the test conditions were identical.  Can you verify they were?

I don't want to discourage you from connector cleaning.  I'm just looking for quantifiable data to show you are doing the most important ones first.

The data presented so far seems to suggest you've got more cleaning to do.  Look at your schematic.  Follow power path from battery to alternator field and to the rectifier.  Note each connector or switch in the path.  Each one has the potential for voltage loss.  Don't forget the ground path, too, as it is in the current loop and can consume power, as well.

Cleaning connectors-
Male terminals you already know how to access and clean with a Scotchbrite pad.  The female bullets are more interesting.  I made a tool to clean these.  I got a piece of brass tubing from the hardware store in a smaller diameter than the bullet males.  I also bought some crocus or emery cloth.  Very fine abrasive, I think it has a coating of red jewelers polishing rouge on one side.  I used a razor saw to cut a slot in the end of the tubing wide enough to accept the thickness of the cloth. Cut widths of cloth about the length of the bullet male and make the strips long enough to wrap around the end of the tube with the abrasive exposed.  Chuck the tube in your electric drill and insert into the female connector.  As the drill spins it cleans and polishes the contact surface.  You can adjust the number of wraps to make good pressure inside.   If needed, readjust the female socket tension for a good grab onto the cleaned male bullet.  Just before final assembly, I squirt a little DeOxit on both the male and female connectors.
The new tool makes the female bullet contacts easier and faster to clean than the males!

Female spade terminals I clean with a modified thin fingernail file about the same or less thickness than the male spade terminal.  It was well used and not very aggressive cutting.  I ground one so its width was about the same as the male spade.  I made mine cut on extraction from the female spade socket. One or two insertion/extraction cycles is usually all it takes to clean the terminal.   The male terminals are exposed to cleaning like the Bullet type.  A little DeOxit and reassemble.

Cheers,
Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
72 500, 74 550, 75 550K, 75 550F, 76 550F, 77 550F X2, 78 550K, 77 750F X2, 78 750F, 79CX500, 85 700SC, GL1100

Those that learn from history are doomed to repeat it by those that don't learn from history.

Offline HondaMan

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Re: Phantom power drain
« Reply #8 on: June 06, 2006, 08:36:03 PM »
Speaking solid-state-wise: if the rectifiers maesure different ohms readings in their forward (high meter deflection mode) direction, they are uneven. This usually indicates damage. If the new ones measure 100 on your meter and the old ones much less than 90 (or more than 100, about 10% variance), suspect a damaged diode. These silicon diodes, if damaged by a shorted battery, will work OK until they heat up, then they leak current until they cool back down. The CB/CL/SL 350 was famous for this, but used a somewhat less robust rectifier.
See SOHC4shop.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
Hondaman's creed: "Bikers are family. Treat them accordingly."

Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

Link to My CB750 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?adult_audience_rating=00&page=1&pageSize=10&q=my+cb750+book
Link to My CB500/CB550 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?sortBy=RELEVANCE&page=1&q=my+cb550+book&pageSize=10&adult_audience_rating=00
Link to website: https://sohc4shop.com/  (Note: no longer at www.SOHC4shop.com, moved off WWW. in 2024).

Offline BobbyR

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Re: Phantom power drain
« Reply #9 on: June 07, 2006, 04:04:15 PM »
There is a quick and easy old school method for seeing if you have a short to ground. You simply take a bulb or meter and connect one lead to the NEGATIVE battery terminal. Then touch the other lead to a good ground source on the bike. If the bulb lights or the meter reads voltage, you have a short. The principle is simple, if you have a short to ground in your wiring, voltage is flowing through what would normally be a ground and you have completed a circuit by going ground to ground, this should not be. I personally do not like connectors except in places where you need to dosconnect something, such as replacing the headlight. In the remainder of the wiring, connectors ate used for manufacturing efficiency not great connectivity. I have removed all unnecessary connectors and hard soldered. It is very simple to do, you create a vibration and corrosion immune connection. Some solder and some shrink tubing is all you need. I dab silicone sealer at each end of the shrink, it makes me feel better.
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Offline Patrick

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Re: Phantom power drain
« Reply #10 on: June 07, 2006, 06:30:12 PM »
As my electrical education continues, I have happened upon another situation...

I figured I could help zero in on the power drain by going to the source - in this case I mean the fuse box. I figured all the juice is going through there, so maybe I could at least limit my search parameters. Please tell me if my reasoning is sound. I'm still very new at this spark stuff. I really need to find a way to get someone to payme not to go to work so I have more time for this stuff. I enjoy it much more than my 8 to 5.

I measured the voltage on each side of the fuses, grounding the multi tester to the shock bolt. The exercise either brought me vital new information, or not. On my first readings on the top and bottom fuses I found a serious amount of voltage loss across the fuses. The top fuse lost .3 volts and the bottom fuse lost .2 volts. I took my 150 grit sandpaper to the fuse holders and shined them up. Now top fuse measures volts on the left (front of bike), which I figure has to be the "innie," and 8.78 volts on the right. I figured there would be some resistance across the fuses - or how else would they work - but I didn't know if that was excessive. By the way, the numbers themselves may not be that significant since my prolonged testing without recharging the battery has it reading only 11.9 volts between the battery termnals now. The middle fuse I could find no reading. That sorta baffles me, since the bike does run and everything works. The bottom fuse had 11.17 volts on the left and 11.01 on the right.

Should the difference in voltage between the fuses be that great? I figured it was all the same electrical system and should have about the same voltage everywhere. Or perhaps have I found the section of the electrical system I should be concentrating on. I know that top fuse is lighting. Or is this all interesting  but ultimately irrelevant information?

Should the voltage loss across the fuses be that large? Or should I maybe be look for another fuse block?

By the way, with the shiny fuse clamps the voltage from black vreg to ground is now 11.55 volts, so a least I'm making progress.

Thank you for your continued help and your patience.

Patrick
1970 CB750 K0
1982 VF750S Sabre
1987 VT1100 Shadow
1979 Yamaha XS11
1969 Yamaha DT1B
etc.

Offline Patrick

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Re: Phantom power drain
« Reply #11 on: June 11, 2006, 07:35:28 PM »
For the past three days I have been cleaning connections. There are about 14,453 electrical connections on a K5 750. I polished them all with 2000 grit sandpaper, wet sanding with contact cleaner for lubricant. Those years as a Boy Scout finally paid off. It's a wonder I did not start a fire and erupt into flames. The motion was actually quite similar.

Here is where the charging system currently stands:

With a fresh charge, the battery reads 12.92 volts terminal to terminal.

Black wire at vreg, 12.54 volts. White wire at vreg 12.02 volts.

I cannot for the life of me manage to get a consistent resistance reading on the rectifier. It reads very high one direction, no reading in the other. Reverse the probes and go to the other wire and you get high readings one way, no reading the other. The high readings fluctuate a lot. I can check the same two terminals back to back and get two very different high readings. I have no idea what, if anything this means, beyond the fact that I likely don't know what I am doing and I should concentrate on something I do know how to do well. There's a cruise ship out there somewhere that needs a gigolo real bad. I must find it.

Bottom line, with the lights off the charging system quickly shoots to 14.55 or even 14.6 volts at the battery. It holds there as long as the rpms exceed 4,000. With the lights on, the system charges between 13.96 volts and 14.05 volts at the battery. It does not increase as rpms increase. gets there quickly. This voltage holds at that level. It does not rise as the rpms increase. Whatever is limiting it is limiting it very consistently.

So how much charge does the bike need to run the electrical system and charge the battery? I'm thinking this is good enough. I'm out of stuff to try, short of switching out other parts, like the ignition, kill switch and perhaps the whole wiring harness. Anybody ever used one of the $75 wire harnesses Partsnmore sells?

I have given up my plan to install a surround sound system and I guess I'll never get to hook up the subwoofer. That would have been so cool. Such is life.

One thing I have learned. When the PO works on the wires and puts in splices it is well worth the time to pull those splices apart and do them again. I did a lot of soldering and shrink wrapping to make complete wires again. Some of those connections were as scary as my wife first thing in the morning.

I'm thinking, now, that the electrical system in these bikes was overdesigned and never needed all those extra volts. I think 14 is just fine.

Thanks for the help and the encouragement. Outside of the perhaps religious cult indoctrination, I would be hard set to find a support group as helpful and reliable as y'all.

Thanks,

Patrick
1970 CB750 K0
1982 VF750S Sabre
1987 VT1100 Shadow
1979 Yamaha XS11
1969 Yamaha DT1B
etc.

Offline TwoTired

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Re: Phantom power drain
« Reply #12 on: June 11, 2006, 10:58:06 PM »
Your bike is most likely okay.  And, it sure looks like the connector cleaning has paid off big time.
At idle the bike doesn't make enough power to charge the battery and certainly with the lights on it begins to drain.  Reving the motor will put charge back into the battery, but the peak voltage will take time to achieve, as the battery slowly gets back to peak charge conditions.  I suspect it will get there eventually as you cruise the highway, even with the lights on.

No reason not to enjoy your ride.

Cheers,
Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
72 500, 74 550, 75 550K, 75 550F, 76 550F, 77 550F X2, 78 550K, 77 750F X2, 78 750F, 79CX500, 85 700SC, GL1100

Those that learn from history are doomed to repeat it by those that don't learn from history.

the_genrl

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Re: Phantom power drain
« Reply #13 on: June 12, 2006, 12:48:55 AM »
i agree and think that your bike is fine.  the problem lies with the terrible alternator on these.  my 1977 750k has almost identical charging properties.  if i ride in the city for more than 30 mins (usually under 3k rpm), eventualy my bike has been known to DIE and not able to start again until it is jumped >:( .  highway or even moving streets it's fine, but its the idling at intersections does it. 

ive adjusted the regulator till no end and have found that no matter how i tune it, i can still cant get the bike to give forward voltage (more than he battery stand alone) when it is under 2k-2.5krpm.  even at the point where it would boil that battery at 4k rpm, still, not enough at 2k.

i have a friend with a cb450 (maybe 350?) and a cb550.  i dont think the alternators on all of the bikes are teh same, but i know he has the same EXACT problems.  its in the design.  why?  my guess is it was cheaper to make these that way.  plus, i guess they designed the bikes to be ran at higher rpms all the time.   :-\  beats the FK out of me!

remember that these are efficient alternators, just under powered?.  also they require power to work (field current) which is also part of the reason at low speeds, they take more power than they make.
  im guessing the bikes require over 120 watts to power all of that crap AND put positive current into the battery.  the alternator is probably RIGHT at that and depending on the rpms, slightly more or less. 

hope i helped a little....sure took me 10 min to write this damnit!



ps your rectifier is fine, and when you are testing it, it is doing its job  ;) . think of them as a "check valve" for electronics.  whats limiting the voltage at higher rpms is the regulator, also doing its job.  you could adjust it...but it wont do you much good.

Offline TwoTired

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Re: Phantom power drain
« Reply #14 on: June 12, 2006, 01:05:31 AM »
if i ride in the city for more than 30 mins (usually under 3k rpm), eventualy my bike has been known to DIE and not able to start again until it is jumped.

Next time this happens, pull the headlight fuse and kick start the bike.  That should get you going again without a jump start.

Is your headlight of stock rating?  Do you have more electrical load than a stock bike?

Have you checked the voltage lost between the battery terminals and the black and green wires at the regulator?

Cheers,
Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
72 500, 74 550, 75 550K, 75 550F, 76 550F, 77 550F X2, 78 550K, 77 750F X2, 78 750F, 79CX500, 85 700SC, GL1100

Those that learn from history are doomed to repeat it by those that don't learn from history.

the_genrl

  • Guest
Re: Phantom power drain
« Reply #15 on: June 23, 2006, 10:22:11 PM »
ya know, that is a good tip.  i was going to put a switch on my headlight so i knew to turn it off when i was putting around, but fuse will do the same thing.

also i do have higher power front running lights...maybe that could be it.  i dont think they were more than 50% more power than the stock ones though.  dont rememeber :-\ but will check.  i think the headlight is stock though. 

do you mean check the voltage comming out of the regulator and the voltage at the battery?  well, to be honest, not in a while.  ill check that tomorrow.  just so i can see a base, what is a good number for each while idling?

thanks again for helping, on someone elses thread for that matter lol

Offline TwoTired

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  • Posts: 21,802
Re: Phantom power drain
« Reply #16 on: June 24, 2006, 12:19:33 AM »
Your alternator only puts out about 40W at idle and 210W at 5000 RPM.

The stock bike draws about 120W with lights on, regardless of engine RPM, and, 40 or 50W less with the stock headlight off.

The vreg monitors the bike's system voltage (Black wire) and passes it to the alternator Field (white wire) when the voltage is below 14.5V.
Some old bikes lose a bunch of voltage on the black wire, and when the alternator field doesn't get it's full dose of battery juice, it puts out less than rated power because its magnetic field is at lower strength than it ought to have.  Cutting you alternator output by 10 or 20% in this way doesn't help reduce battery drain at idle or recharge it as fast when at best engine speed.

Engine speed doesn't matter for the test.  In fact, you don't even have to have the engine running.  You DO need all the electrical operating on the bike, including headlight.  So, have a fully charged battery for the test.  You are going to compare the voltage at the battery terminals with the voltage at the regulator black and green wire terminals.  Do these tests quickly, as the battery is draining and losing voltage as it does so.
Ideally, the voltage readings should be the same.  And, the smaller the difference, the better.  Differences larger than 1 volt is of some concern.  0.5 volts or less is fine.  In between these readings is not good, but operationally acceptable, I suppose.

Cheers,

Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
72 500, 74 550, 75 550K, 75 550F, 76 550F, 77 550F X2, 78 550K, 77 750F X2, 78 750F, 79CX500, 85 700SC, GL1100

Those that learn from history are doomed to repeat it by those that don't learn from history.