Topic: Lose 1st gear and neutral when warm 1975 CB550

[matt mattison]

Motor and clutch has 5000 miles on it. As far as I know, it has never been opened up.
Just did an oil change, 20/50 W valvoline motorcycle oil. Clutch is adjusted. Most of the time the bike shifts smoothly as it should. No slippage, clunking or any of that. But when it gets a good run, like say 60 mph plus, for over 20 min or so I lose first and neutral for a bit. The shifter feels different. Hard to explain, like it's dead, no resistance. I'm assuming when I run the bike and it gets good and warm, this problem comes up. If I fool with shifting it a bit, after this happens, sometimes it goes back to normal. Or if I let it cool down a minute, all is good. I put a good 1000 miles on it before this started happening. Any ideas are appreciated.

[sinister902]

you know what, I literally JUST experienced the SAME THING. I swapped to 20w50 vavloline this past oil change becuase my headgasket has started weeping much more than before and I figured thicker oil would result in less leaking......and last night I had it out for an extended ride and found myself getting stuck in 2nd gear at stop lights on occasion and it was baffling me why all of a sudden I was having issues.

now that someone else has experienced this.....I'm thinking the oil is too thick and I should go back to the reccomended 10w40.

[matt mattison]

I didn't have any issues until after the oil change either. Sounds bazaar. Let me know if u change your oil what happens

[HondaMan]

Couple of things:
1. Never use automotive oil in these engines. There is a lot of detergent in that oil, and it causes several problems, especially in the long term. One of the biggest: foamy oil, which makes the bearings drag and the transmission sticky in shifting. Eventually it will dissolve the glue that holds the cork on the clutch plates, destroying those plates and making a slipping clutch. Use MOTORCYCLE oil, or Racing oils, which have low detergent. Valvoline is great for car engines, bad for these bikes, in particular. It will slowly dissolve the sealant from the gaskets over time, and then the engine will leak, everywhere. There are many, many posts about this, often turning into 'oil wars'.

2. If your L shift fork is slightly bent, like from having the bike fall over on the shift lever side while the engine is running, the gear dogs will barely engage in 1st gear. Very common, from previous damage events. If then you have foamy oil, the shift drum will not turn quite as far as normal (especially when hot), and that gear will not fully engage. After the engine slows down for a while and the foam rises out of the oil, the problem seems to disappear, like a ghost. Also very common on the wet-sump Fours.

3. DON'T use 10w[anything] oil in the SOHC4 engine in summertime. An unfortunate Jinglish mis-translation of the Honda mauals in the early 1970s caused the 10w40 logo to show up in the manuals and on the dipstick: the Japanese warning actually stated "Never use LESS THAN 10w40 oil in this engine". This light oil will cause premature rocker shaft and engine bearing wear. Use at least 15w40, or 20w50 weight oils. If you tour, use only 20w50: 15w40 or 20w40 is OK for around-town use with the occasional highway trip. Use LOW DETERGENT OIL ONLY in all cases.

Good oils are usually labelled "Motorcycle Oil" right on the label, like Castrol 4T or Bel-Ray. It's not cheap, because it is a fairly small market. The normal oil change interval for the 550 is every 1500 miles, with a new filter every other change.

[matt mattison]

I used the valvoline motorcycle oil for wet clutches.

[TwoTired]

Does the clutch drag?
Hard to find neutral?
Bike jump when put into gear?  ...like the clutch wasn't fully released?

I really fail to understand why people don't follow Honda's recommendations.  Do you think they are lying when they recommend 10W-40 for all weather operation, and did so for all the years of production?

OK, I can understand if you routinely go balls out for long distance in the desert high heat.  But otherwise, the Cb550 just doesn't need thicker oil, particularly a low time, low wear, factory engine.  10W-40 should be changed routinely in high heat conditions.  But, if you are over-temping the oil, even 20w-50 must be changed early, too.

If I've gotten the oil too hot or used it for too long, the trans and clutch will tell me so, with a bit of clutch drag and shifter sticking.  I find the semi-synthetics make this pretty infrequent.  And so far, it's been cheap insurance for avoiding engine dissassembly.

But then, everyone has their favorite oil, whether determined by science, emotion, or the prospect of possibly cheating fate.  ...And is why oil threads are so..."entertaining", I expect.

Mutligrade oils behave as thicker oil when they warm up.  So, at operating temp they are at least 20w equivalent if not more.  They are only 10w when cold, well below operating temperature, or when they have been over used or damaged by over-temp.

About the implication that early manuals printed incorrect information.  I call "story time"  or the invention of an urban myth.  Even manuals in 1977 STILL used the 10w-40 recommendation.  There were certainly other changes in the owner's manuals over the years of production.  How is it that they consistently overlooked correcting such an essential point as an oil recommendation, urbanly declared as a "mistake"?  I'd like to see a Japanese version of the owner's manual for verification.  But, I strongly suspect that it will also say 10w-40 as the all weather recommendation.

Why is it an internet posting has more credibility than the owner's manual?  (Or, all of the manuals, for that matter.)
The manufacturer backed their manual recommendations with a warranty.  Does an internet post have any warranty backing?

Cheers,

[sinister902]

I used the valvoline motorcycle oil for wet clutches.

this is exactly what I did as well. "Valvoline 4cycle 20w50 Motorcycle oil" is exactly what the label reads....

[matt mattison]

Does the clutch drag?
Hard to find neutral?
Bike jump when put into gear?  ...like the clutch wasn't fully released?

I really fail to understand why people don't follow Honda's recommendations.  Do you think they are lying when they recommend 10W-40 for all weather operation, and did so for all the years of production?

OK, I can understand if you routinely go balls out for long distance in the desert high heat.  But otherwise, the Cb550 just doesn't need thicker oil, particularly a low time, low wear, factory engine.  10W-40 should be changed routinely in high heat conditions.  But, if you are over-temping the oil, even 20w-50 must be changed early, too.

If I've gotten the oil too hot or used it for too long, the trans and clutch will tell me so, with a bit of clutch drag and shifter sticking.  I find the semi-synthetics make this pretty infrequent.  And so far, it's been cheap insurance for avoiding engine dissassembly.

But then, everyone has their favorite oil, whether determined by science, emotion, or the prospect of possibly cheating fate.  ...And is why oil threads are so..."entertaining", I expect.

Mutligrade oils behave as thicker oil when they warm up.  So, at operating temp they are at least 20w equivalent if not more.  They are only 10w when cold, well below operating temperature, or when they have been over used or damaged by over-temp.

About the implication that early manuals printed incorrect information.  I call "story time"  or the invention of an urban myth.  Even manuals in 1977 STILL used the 10w-40 recommendation.  There were certainly other changes in the owner's manuals over the years of production.  How is it that they consistently overlooked correcting such an essential point as an oil recommendation, urbanly declared as a "mistake"?  I'd like to see a Japanese version of the owner's manual for verification.  But, I strongly suspect that it will also say 10w-40 as the all weather recommendation.

Why is it an internet posting has more credibility than the owner's manual?  (Or, all of the manuals, for that matter.)
The manufacturer backed their manual recommendations with a warranty.  Does an internet post have any warranty backing?

Cheers,

So it sounds like your disagreeing with Hondamans recommendation of using nothing less than 15w anything. Fair enough. I have the same manual as you do. I'm quite proficient at decoding the English language as well. The summers here has been pretty brutal so far, so using 20/50 mc oil seemed like a logical choice. I didn't really think I was blazing a new trail here with using a thicker oil. I'm really not interested in starting an oil war. I'm just looking for some trouble shooting advice on this shifting issue. And to answer your question, no the clutch doesn't drag, or lurch forward in first . Seems the problem arises as I stated earlier, when warmed up and run moderately. The ambient temp at the time was in excess of 90 degrees, if it matters.

[Eddie]

I also am (recently) having a shifting issue as well. 75' 550 14k miles..using Rotella 10w40...have 500 miles on it. After 5 days of 100deg + heat it started having problems down shifting and occasionaly having false neutrals between 2-3 and 4-5. I'm not a hard driver at all and I dont downshift hard. It also clunks a little when going into first from neutral..oh yeah..I only drive it to work...paved country roads 10 miles each way.. Have no idea how it was driven before I got it...sat since 1992 til I got it in 2011..

[TwoTired]

I also am (recently) having a shifting issue as well. 75' 550 14k miles..using Rotella 10w40...have 500 miles on it. After 5 days of 100deg + heat it started having problems down shifting and occasionaly having false neutrals between 2-3 and 4-5.  ... It also clunks a little when going into first from neutral.

Those are the symptoms I alerted about when the oil wears out, or has been damaged by over temp.  Your clutch is dragging a bit, as the plates can't quite get friction free.  It doesn't matter if the oil has 10 miles on it, if it gets too hot, it's pooched.

It's those occasional days of high heat, that I use semi synthetic, as it has a higher heat withstand tolerance, and remains a lubricant longer when some of the oil has been damaged by heat.
The additives that make it a mutli vis oil get damaged with high heat, and it reverts to the lowest viscosity of the base stock that the oil was blended upon (lowest number).  Synthetics usually have a 50 to 100 degree higher temp withstand ability.  I like to have some of that inside the engine when the additives break down or the base stock oil has broken down in the blend.

Still have to change it when the clutch drags and shifter tells me to, or the 1500 miles of use happens, of course.

These are air cooled engines.  If you run them even at half power, then stop at a light for 3-5 minutes with high outside temps and no airflow for cooling, the oil gets too hot.  The damage to the oil is progressive.

Cheers,

[Eddie]

any reason to change the filter ? or just drain the oil from it ? I'll change it and repost about what I find..

[matt mattison]

If it were mine, I wouldn't if you have say under 1000 miles on it. But referring to the manuals recommendation is always the safe bet.

[TwoTired]

any reason to change the filter ? or just drain the oil from it ? I'll change it and repost about what I find..

No, the filter will be good still.

You might consider using Honda HP4 without moly for a test tryout.  It's a bit spendy on its own.  But, it is cheaper than almost any engine repair work.  You can't go wrong.  And, all of my 550s seemed a bit smoother when using it.

I've also used Red Line (full synthetic) and Spectro Golden 4 semi synthetic in the past. 

Cheers,

[dave500]

check your clutch basket end float,blip the throttle on downshifts theyll go easier.

[TwoTired]

So it sounds like your disagreeing with Hondamans recommendation of using nothing less than 15w anything.

Yes.  Certainly for a low time engine and normal use.  Perhaps when the clearances open up from wear factors, higher vis. oil might be of some help.

The summers here has been pretty brutal so far, so using 20/50 mc oil seemed like a logical choice. I didn't really think I was blazing a new trail here with using a thicker oil.

You're not.  "The more is better" mentality is quite pervasive, and there is lots of mythology spread around to support it.  However, I don't think most riders really enter the "extreme use" arena they worry about.

I'm just looking for some trouble shooting advice on this shifting issue. And to answer your question, no the clutch doesn't drag, or lurch forward in first . Seems the problem arises as I stated earlier, when warmed up and run moderately. The ambient temp at the time was in excess of 90 degrees, if it matters.

OK.  The symptom is not generic to the machine.  So, temperature expansion of the components as cause would be a rare issue.  And, if it were a mechanical issue, an effective cure would involve splitting the cases to see what is going on inside.  The temp does matter, particularly if the airflow about the engine is reduced, restricted, or avoided.

Wouldn't it be nice if simply changing oil, if not the brand, fixed the problem?  If things aren't sliding around internally because the oil is worn out or damaged,  I'd rather try an oil change before splitting the cases.

1000 miles on the oil is 2/3 of the expected service life.  I've read some studies that tested oil in motor cycles which showed that the oil began losing its viscosity modifiers immediately upon use and became significant in the 1200 mile range, if I recall correctly.  Add to that the life shortening effects of higher than normal heat, and the possibility exists that the oil you have is no longer up to the task.

Also consider, oil manufacturers meddle with the formula inside the bottle from batch to batch, often to increase profitability.  They are under no obligation to inform the buyer about changes.

Then again, some machines simply like a certain brand or formulation of oil (or gas) better than others.  It could be that valvoline, in this batch formulation, isn't what your machine happens to like.

At any rate, it seems your choices are to live with the issue, take the cases apart to see what's up inside, change the oil brand, or simply change the oil.  I know what I would try first. 

After doing 30-ish oil changes in my Cb550s, I was surprised at the noticeable difference in trans shifting behavior, when I tried Honda's HP4 without moly.  It was an experiment I was was happy to experience.  They only drawback I've found to HP4 is that it evaporates faster than non-synthetic blend oil.  This makes it seem the engine is using or burning oil between changes, and needs a top up more frequently.  The oil loss worried me until I was tipped off to what was going on with evaporation.

Cheers,

[matt mattison]

So it sounds like your disagreeing with Hondamans recommendation of using nothing less than 15w anything.

Yes.  Certainly for a low time engine and normal use.  Perhaps when the clearances open up from wear factors, higher vis. oil might be of some help.

The summers here has been pretty brutal so far, so using 20/50 mc oil seemed like a logical choice. I didn't really think I was blazing a new trail here with using a thicker oil.

You're not.  "The more is better" mentality is quite pervasive, and there is lots of mythology spread around to support it.  However, I don't think most riders really enter the "extreme use" arena they worry about.

I'm just looking for some trouble shooting advice on this shifting issue. And to answer your question, no the clutch doesn't drag, or lurch forward in first . Seems the problem arises as I stated earlier, when warmed up and run moderately. The ambient temp at the time was in excess of 90 degrees, if it matters.

OK.  The symptom is not generic to the machine.  So, temperature expansion of the components as cause would be a rare issue.  And, if it were a mechanical issue, an effective cure would involve splitting the cases to see what is going on inside.  The temp does matter, particularly if the airflow about the engine is reduced, restricted, or avoided.

Wouldn't it be nice if simply changing oil, if not the brand, fixed the problem?  If things aren't sliding around internally because the oil is worn out or damaged,  I'd rather try an oil change before splitting the cases.

1000 miles on the oil is 2/3 of the expected service life.  I've read some studies that tested oil in motor cycles which showed that the oil began losing its viscosity modifiers immediately upon use and became significant in the 1200 mile range, if I recall correctly.  Add to that the life shortening effects of higher than normal heat, and the possibility exists that the oil you have is no longer up to the task.

Also consider, oil manufacturers meddle with the formula inside the bottle from batch to batch, often to increase profitability.  They are under no obligation to inform the buyer about changes.

Then again, some machines simply like a certain brand or formulation of oil (or gas) better than others.  It could be that valvoline, in this batch formulation, isn't what your machine happens to like.

At any rate, it seems your choices are to live with the issue, take the cases apart to see what's up inside, change the oil brand, or simply change the oil.  I know what I would try first. 

After doing 30-ish oil changes in my Cb550s, I was surprised at the noticeable difference in trans shifting behavior, when I tried Honda's HP4 without moly.  It was an experiment I was was happy to experience.  They only drawback I've found to HP4 is that it evaporates faster than non-synthetic blend oil.  This makes it seem the engine is using or burning oil between changes, and needs a top up more frequently.  The oil loss worried me until I was tipped off to what was going on with evaporation.

Cheers,

I'm gonna change the oil in it today. I will look for the Honda HP4 without moly. If not I know Bel Ray is readily available @ 10 bucks a qt. I will report back with my results.
The 20/50 I just did my oil change with only has like 200 miles on it, but perhaps that doesn't matter. We will see

[orange550]

FWIW I just changed the oil in my 74 550 (30k miles) to Bel Ray 20w-50. I'm currently into 750 miles of a back roads tour ( another 1000 to go) and the bike is performing very well. Shifts well and 'seems' quiter. I'm doing 4-6 hours a day with frequent breaks in 85 degree weather. I'm very pleased so far. (KOW)

[matt mattison]

It was definately the oil. I just changed out the Valvoline Motorcycle 20/50 W with BelRay Mineral based oil. The Valvoline had less than 200 miles on it,unbelievable. I took it out for a 65 mile trip, ambient temp here is around 86 degrees F. Ran her pretty hard during that time and shifts like it should. Thanks for the input!

[sinister902]

Guess I better go buy some new oil and change mine again too.....I put about 200 miles on the 20w50 as well with temps upper 80's low 90's the past week or so, I'm not too upset to have to swap the oil back out.....it's time for a filter too anyways.... Glad to see that's most likely the issue!

[cabrala]

The question I have is related to this idea of "spoiling" the oil due to high temps. Is this something common? Obviously geography plays a role, but beyond that, how cautious does one need to be when deciding the type of oil he/she runs?

For example I am riding (once, maybe twice a week) within the Boston city limits in 80-90 degree weather. How quickly does my 20W50 "spoil"?

Being new to the CB's, I am trying to amass as much knowledge as I can about their likes and dislikes, and while the oil wars entertain me they also confuse the heck out of me when I go to buy some! 

[orange550]

It was definately the oil. I just changed out the Valvoline Motorcycle 20/50 W with BelRay Mineral based oil. The Valvoline had less than 200 miles on it,unbelievable. I took it out for a 65 mile trip, ambient temp here is around 86 degrees F. Ran her pretty hard during that time and shifts like it should. Thanks for the input!

Did you put in Bel Ray 20w or 10w?

[TwoTired]

The question I have is related to this idea of "spoiling" the oil due to high temps. Is this something common?

Always has been.  Every oil in existence has a breakdown temperature, which varies with construction, impurity level, and chemical structure.

Liquid cooled motors are less susceptible, due to the temperature regulation the cooling system provides for the motor.
Air cooled motors, such as the SOHC4, do not have regulation of the engine's temperature.  The outer case and fin area exchange heat into the surrounding air.
The way heat transfer works is that it "flows" or transfers energy from the hotter material to the colder material.  Heat does not transfer if both materials are the same temperature.
So, if the air stagnates about the engine, the air attains the temperature of the motor and heat isn't removed anymore.  The air and the engine increase in temperature as long as fuel is creating an exothermic reaction in the cylinders.  If the surrounding air is replaced with new cooler air, then the engine can shed the heat to the air passing over the engine.  The more airflow, the more heat can be removed from the engine.  The only "regulation" is the volume of air and differential temperature between engine and passing air. (Yes, in cold weather the engine can be "over" cooled.)
The engine oil attains the heat of the motor.  If the motor temp exceeds the withstand capability of the oil, it begins to damage in relation to the severity.  The long chain molecules that make it behave like a thicker oil break down and the oil behaves as it's base stock (the lower number). Increasing temps can turn the base stock to tar and ash.  The temperature withstand of the oil purchased over the counter is rarely published.  The people that sell the oil don't want educated buyers, they want brand loyal buyers.  So, they sell the brand rather than product capabilities.

Obviously geography plays a role, but beyond that, how cautious does one need to be when deciding the type of oil he/she runs?

How much insurance do you buy?
I like the semi-synthetics because of the extra insurance factor. At least a portion of the oil will still be working if it becomes inadvertently over temped.  And I can change damaged oil faster and easier than internal mechanical components.  Like insurance, I may never need it.  But, if I do, it may save the engine.

For example I am riding (once, maybe twice a week) within the Boston city limits in 80-90 degree weather. How quickly does my 20W50 "spoil"?

How often does your oil get heated beyond withstand temp?

Cheers,

[matt mattison]

It was definately the oil. I just changed out the Valvoline Motorcycle 20/50 W with BelRay Mineral based oil. The Valvoline had less than 200 miles on it,unbelievable. I took it out for a 65 mile trip, ambient temp here is around 86 degrees F. Ran her pretty hard during that time and shifts like it should. Thanks for the input!

Did you put in Bel Ray 20w or 10w?

I went with their 20/50 W mineral based. The shop was also selling the synthetic based bel ray. Let's see how the new oil holds up. I don't believe the bike ever overheated, or never shown any signs of it. Perhaps a bad batch of valvoline, as two tired suggested? Not much stop n go riding was done, it was all hammering it down the road.

[Eddie]

Not to start a oil war but... has anybody had any experience with Amsoil synthetic motorcycle oil....they say it is compatiable with wet clutches.

[cabrala]

How much insurance do you buy?
I like the semi-synthetics because of the extra insurance factor. At least a portion of the oil will still be working if it becomes inadvertently over temped.  And I can change damaged oil faster and easier than internal mechanical components.  Like insurance, I may never need it.  But, if I do, it may save the engine.

I understand the theory you have put forth, but in all honesty I don't know jack about different types of oil; regular, semi-synthetic, synthetic. It is something I need to research so that better decisions can be made for the 550. Currently I run 20W50 Castrol 4T Motorcycle Oil.

How often does your oil get heated beyond withstand temp?

As you stated earlier, if the vendor is not publishing withstand temperatures, how would I know (scientifically) that I have surpassed said temperature? What I can tell you, TT, is that recently I have been experiencing some clunky shifting and difficulty finding neutral when the bike is hot. I have attributed this issue to the oil pump, where I believe my small oil leak is coming from (still inconclusive, but very likely).

It is not very often that I ride in the city as I do not find the stop-and-go to be enjoyable. Therefore, based on your earlier post, I assume oil can be spoiled on one ride if the temperature of the bike and environment are hot enough. This is all quite fascinating to me and I really appreciate you taking the time to school me.

Best.