Author Topic: Spark plugs are as black as night. Why?  (Read 6758 times)

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Offline DavePhipps

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Spark plugs are as black as night. Why?
« on: November 12, 2012, 04:51:24 AM »
This weekend I got the 1972 cb500 back on the road. It was running so rich that I could barely drive.
Here's the setup so far
100 main (replaced the 115s)
40 slow jets
stock neeedle position
Pods (fleshly cleaned, not oiled)
Motad 4-1
Air bleed screws 1.75 turns out.
floats 23mm from base of carb body
valve lash set
Timing set with timing light.
Carbs synced with vacumm gauges
Now call me odd, but with this setup I think I be running lean? My spark plugs are black and fluffy instead.
My riding is mainly 1/4 throttle, with some half throttle on the highway.

There are some other issues with the bike such as oil coming from exhaust port 3. Doing compression test tonight to diagnose that. Also a slightly warped brake rotor, that's being replaced soon.
That's about it. Any input would be appreciated.
Bikes:
90 FZR600 RA
74 CB550k
78 GL1000
72 CB500K

Offline Xnavylfr

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Re: Spark plugs are as black as night. Why?
« Reply #1 on: November 12, 2012, 08:16:35 AM »
With a black carbon deposit on the plugs means you are running RICH. Get a new set of plugs 1 heat range HOTTER and try those to see what indication you get.
Is this bike a daily ride or has it been sitting for awhile?? If it has been sitting , drain the tank and put in fresh fuel.


Xnavylfr(CHUCK)

Offline DavePhipps

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Re: Spark plugs are as black as night. Why?
« Reply #2 on: November 12, 2012, 08:34:46 AM »
Fresh gas(98 octane) and plugs were purchased 2 days ago. NGK D7EAs, that's as hot as they go I think, and black in 2 days.
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Offline flybox1

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Re: Spark plugs are as black as night. Why?
« Reply #3 on: November 12, 2012, 09:20:59 AM »
pretty sure you are lean with your pods.  black and oily is rich. 
You have 2 areas you need to tune. 
IDLE and MID Range.  air screw position will affect idle mixture, and the position of the needle will affect mid range mixture.
change mid range FIRST, then the Idle circuit.

If your needles are in the stock position, you are starving your bike for fuel (making it MORE LEAN) because of the increased air flow from your carbs.  you need to RAISE the needles one notch by moving the needle clip LOWER(towards the pointy end). this will richen mid-range.
ride, and plug chop after riding under load at 1/3 throttle....check deposits. once you get a good tan plug...go to the idle circuit below.

if your Air screw is on the airbox side of your carbs, and you turn it OUT, you are making that circuit MORE lean by introducing more air. turn it IN .25 turns to decrease air (richen). let your bike idle, and recheck plug deposits. if they are better, you are on the right track.
'78 750K (F3 engine) PD42b's, Modified airbox w/K&N  filter, 40/110 jets, 1 needle shim, IMS@ 1 turn out. Kerker + Cone 18" QuietCore

Past Bikes
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Offline DavePhipps

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Re: Spark plugs are as black as night. Why?
« Reply #4 on: November 12, 2012, 09:52:11 AM »
Unfortunately I have nowhere to do a plug chop. If I did I would have already gone that route. When the rain stops here I'll be doing a compression test and cleaning plugs, and adjusting screws.
I would try to adjust the neddles but I'm not sure how to get them out unless I'm taking the carbs apart comletely.
Bikes:
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74 CB550k
78 GL1000
72 CB500K

Offline flybox1

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Re: Spark plugs are as black as night. Why?
« Reply #5 on: November 12, 2012, 09:57:00 AM »
Unfortunately I have nowhere to do a plug chop. If I did I would have already gone that route. When the rain stops here I'll be doing a compression test and cleaning plugs, and adjusting screws.
I would try to adjust the neddles but I'm not sure how to get them out unless I'm taking the carbs apart comletely.
yes, youll have to take your carbs off, remove the slides, adjust the clips, put the slides back in, and put your carbs back on.  might have to do it again if its still not right.

gotta love those pods!! ::)  :P  ;D
'78 750K (F3 engine) PD42b's, Modified airbox w/K&N  filter, 40/110 jets, 1 needle shim, IMS@ 1 turn out. Kerker + Cone 18" QuietCore

Past Bikes
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Offline TwoTired

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Re: Spark plugs are as black as night. Why?
« Reply #6 on: November 12, 2012, 10:11:33 AM »
Here's the setup so far
...
stock neeedle position
...
What do you consider is the stock needle position?

There are some other issues with the bike such as oil coming from exhaust port 3.
Inside the port or next to it?

Are the main jet orings new and intact?
Did you pull the emulsion tubes and clean the air bleed holes?
Did you "prove" the passage clear between air jet(s) and emulsion tubes?
Are you compressing the float valve spring pins for the float adjustment?

Are you operating with choke on?    Up is on, down is off.



Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
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Offline DavePhipps

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Re: Spark plugs are as black as night. Why?
« Reply #7 on: November 12, 2012, 10:27:32 AM »
I cleaned the engine and checked. The oil seems to be coming out of exhaust port 4. The exhaust colloars are wet with oil and there is no oil coming from th4e surrounding areas. There is no leak from head or cam cover gaskets. Tappet covers were checked and no leaks there either.

Stock needle postion is that the needles have never been out to my knowledge and the tabs show no sign of ever being unbent. I would check them but I truly am not sure how to safely get them out with the carbs on the bike and I need to ride to work in the morning.

New 100 mains installed with new O-rings.
I have not pulled the emulsion tubes.
The passage between the air jets and tube will flow compressed air and also carb cleaner. I'll need clarification on the term "prove"
Carbs are vertical when checking and the float tabs are just touching not compressing the valve springs.
Choke is off, and here is a confusing part. I don't need the choke unless it's rather cold (40 F or below). This also points toward richness in the idle circuit.

Your input is appreciated TT, thanks.
Bikes:
90 FZR600 RA
74 CB550k
78 GL1000
72 CB500K

Offline flybox1

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Re: Spark plugs are as black as night. Why?
« Reply #8 on: November 12, 2012, 10:59:22 AM »
the emulsion tubes have tiny holes along them.  the tube will still pass air, even if the tiny holes are clogged/corroded.
the holes are important as they help atomize fuel before burn.
compressed air and carb cleaner shot through only indicates the hole lengthwise is clean.
 
the only way you can prove the are clean is to pull them. poke a wire through each hole.
'78 750K (F3 engine) PD42b's, Modified airbox w/K&N  filter, 40/110 jets, 1 needle shim, IMS@ 1 turn out. Kerker + Cone 18" QuietCore

Past Bikes
1974 550K0 (stock), 1973 CB350F (stock), 1983 Yamaha XS400K (POS)
77/78 cool 2 member #3
"Knowledge without mileage equals bullsh!t" - Henry Rollins

"This is my CB. There are many like it, but this one is mine…"

Offline DavePhipps

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Re: Spark plugs are as black as night. Why?
« Reply #9 on: November 12, 2012, 11:11:53 AM »
Just a bit of info for TT. I just did a compression check. 130 across all four. Bike was warmed up, throttle and choke open. All plugs out. Using a standard compression gauge from an auto parts store with 12 inch hose. I get the same reading with oil added to the combustion chambers. Maybe a leaking valve stem seal?

Flybox, can you tell me how to get the needles and slides out? Whith those out I should be able to get to the emulsion tubes.
Bikes:
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Offline flybox1

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Re: Spark plugs are as black as night. Why?
« Reply #10 on: November 12, 2012, 11:28:36 AM »
on my 350 and 750, you remove the top caps from your carbs. 
unscrew the slide arm from the slide lifter shaft, and slowly lift it out.  you'll have some finagling to do to get the slide off the arm on the way up/out, but its simple.  it goes back in the way you take it out. 
be sure the cut out goes in facing the airbox. 
slide one goes back in carb one....etc.
the emulsion tubes should press out from the slide side. use a wood dowel.
make not of the needle position and post it here...
'78 750K (F3 engine) PD42b's, Modified airbox w/K&N  filter, 40/110 jets, 1 needle shim, IMS@ 1 turn out. Kerker + Cone 18" QuietCore

Past Bikes
1974 550K0 (stock), 1973 CB350F (stock), 1983 Yamaha XS400K (POS)
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"Knowledge without mileage equals bullsh!t" - Henry Rollins

"This is my CB. There are many like it, but this one is mine…"

Offline nancy

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Re: Spark plugs are as black as night. Why?
« Reply #11 on: November 12, 2012, 11:49:06 AM »
As you have pods - ie NON stock air box....I'd expect you should NOT have your needle set to the stock position. Set it to a leaner position. That's my opinion.
Mark

Offline DavePhipps

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Re: Spark plugs are as black as night. Why?
« Reply #12 on: November 12, 2012, 12:09:33 PM »
I have a spare carb body and am trying to get the slide out but I can't see a way to do it without seperating the bodies. What am I doing wrong here?

OK, I got it out but I think finagling is an understatement
« Last Edit: November 12, 2012, 12:13:37 PM by DavePhipps »
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Offline flybox1

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Re: Spark plugs are as black as night. Why?
« Reply #13 on: November 12, 2012, 12:45:10 PM »
I have a spare carb body and am trying to get the slide out but I can't see a way to do it without seperating the bodies. What am I doing wrong here?

OK, I got it out but I think finagling is an understatement
;D yep, carbs off the bike makes it easiest, but it can be done with them on. 
'78 750K (F3 engine) PD42b's, Modified airbox w/K&N  filter, 40/110 jets, 1 needle shim, IMS@ 1 turn out. Kerker + Cone 18" QuietCore

Past Bikes
1974 550K0 (stock), 1973 CB350F (stock), 1983 Yamaha XS400K (POS)
77/78 cool 2 member #3
"Knowledge without mileage equals bullsh!t" - Henry Rollins

"This is my CB. There are many like it, but this one is mine…"

Offline DavePhipps

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Re: Spark plugs are as black as night. Why?
« Reply #14 on: November 12, 2012, 12:46:42 PM »
This is now a weekend project. I'm losing light in an hour and it's getting dang cold. My "garage" is just a concrete parking pad :(
For the carbs it seems the only things left to verify are the emulsion tubes and neddle settings. Now that I know how to get to them it shouldn't take too long once I have time.

The oil coming from the exhaust port still remains a mystery. I'll try replacing the valve stem seal this coming weekend and see if that helps.

Does anyone know of a way to check for leaking seals while the bike is together?
« Last Edit: November 12, 2012, 01:00:18 PM by DavePhipps »
Bikes:
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74 CB550k
78 GL1000
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Offline TwoTired

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Re: Spark plugs are as black as night. Why?
« Reply #15 on: November 12, 2012, 12:59:54 PM »
I cleaned the engine and checked. The oil seems to be coming out of exhaust port 4. The exhaust colloars are wet with oil and there is no oil coming from th4e surrounding areas. There is no leak from head or cam cover gaskets. Tappet covers were checked and no leaks there either.
While I admit to the rare possibility the oil could come out of the exhaust.  I find that very unlikely.  If you are confident that each and every seal is perfect.  The remaining options are:
Cracked head
 Very bad exhaust valve guide.  However, there should be blue smoke from exhaust and the inside of the exhaust coated with oil, as well.

Leaking tach drive seal?  Have you cleaned it, then applied foot powder and watch for where the foot powder begins the absorb oil?  I expect there is something you've overlooked.

Stock needle postion is that the needles have never been out to my knowledge and the tabs show no sign of ever being unbent. I would check them but I truly am not sure how to safely get them out with the carbs on the bike and I need to ride to work in the morning.

Have you owned the bike since new or from when it was in known stock configuration?  Who pod on the pods?


New 100 mains installed with new O-rings.
Can you confirm the orings were correct and sealing correctly to the carb tower?

I have not pulled the emulsion tubes.
At this point, I'd consider that the prime suspect for running rich.


The passage between the air jets and tube will flow compressed air and also carb cleaner. I'll need clarification on the term "prove"
Proving involves testing liquid flow between each of the four exit points in the pilot circuit.  Perhaps you did this?  There are two air jets.  One feeds the pilot, and the other feeds the main/mid emulsion tube cavity.

Can you confirm that each spark plug shows the same deposit pattern as all the others?

Just a bit of info for TT. I just did a compression check. 130 across all four. Bike was warmed up, throttle and choke open. All plugs out. Using a standard compression gauge from an auto parts store with 12 inch hose. I get the same reading with oil added to the combustion chambers. Maybe a leaking valve stem seal?
Almost certainly is not a ring problem.  If guides were an issue, you should also have reported blue exhaust smoke.

Unbind the slide lifter arm from the common actuating shaft (Hex bolt).
Disconnect the lifter arm from the ball and socket slide connector.
You will then have access to the two screws that connect the slide to the lifter base. 
When those are removed, you can twist the lifter base pad for slot alignment and extraction of the slide or needle is now possible.
You will have to vacuum sync the carbs after reassembly.

Cheers,
« Last Edit: November 17, 2012, 05:54:59 PM by TwoTired »
Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
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Offline DavePhipps

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Re: Spark plugs are as black as night. Why?
« Reply #16 on: November 12, 2012, 01:11:23 PM »
There is oil in the 4-1 collector. I removed it to check. I also have blue smoke from the exhaust.
The tach seal is bone dry
I will clean again this weekend and powder
.
All sparkplugs except for #3 show the same deposits. #3 is the one that has oil coming from the exhaust port area.
Main jets sealed very nicely.

I do have a spare head that I can rebuild/refurbish while this one is on bike. It might be easier to just take care of what is on the bike now though.

What would I use to check for worn valve guides? I don't have any measuring devices that small.

.
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72 CB500K

Offline TwoTired

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Re: Spark plugs are as black as night. Why?
« Reply #17 on: November 12, 2012, 01:22:27 PM »
All sparkplugs except for #3 show the same deposits. #3 is the one that has oil coming from the exhaust port area.
Starting to point to valve guides.

What would I use to check for worn valve guides? I don't have any measuring devices that small.
With the valve spring off and the valve in its seat, you observe "wobble" at the stem tip.  Ideally there is a couple thou.  Usually, if oil is seeping past badly, the stem will wobble 1/16 inch or more and the valve seat is usually worn as well.
The test can be done with head on or off.  Head on is trickier.  But, I have done it.  If guide is bad, then head off is recommended for guide replacement.

Cheers,
Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
72 500, 74 550, 75 550K, 75 550F, 76 550F, 77 550F X2, 78 550K, 77 750F X2, 78 750F, 79CX500, 85 700SC, GL1100

Those that learn from history are doomed to repeat it by those that don't learn from history.

Offline DavePhipps

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Re: Spark plugs are as black as night. Why?
« Reply #18 on: November 12, 2012, 03:29:17 PM »
Thanks TT.I'll be removing the head and carbs this weekend.
I'll update Saturday or Sunday.
Bikes:
90 FZR600 RA
74 CB550k
78 GL1000
72 CB500K

Offline 2wheels

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Re: Spark plugs are as black as night. Why?
« Reply #19 on: November 12, 2012, 04:15:47 PM »
Hey Dave
Could you take a picture of the spark plugs and attach here?
Thanks
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Offline steam-powered man

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Re: Spark plugs are as black as night. Why?
« Reply #20 on: November 12, 2012, 07:56:10 PM »
2 stupid questions:  are the bike's current symptoms new?  has it ever run just fine with the current mods?
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Offline luap

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Re: Spark plugs are as black as night. Why?
« Reply #21 on: November 12, 2012, 08:27:39 PM »
I have a spare carb body and am trying to get the slide out but I can't see a way to do it without seperating the bodies. What am I doing wrong here?

OK, I got it out but I think finagling is an understatement
you dont have to seperate the bodies. theres a small retainer clip you need to unpry, an 7 or 8mm nut  you need to pull - 2 small screws at the bottom then the arm an the slide will come out as one. Also I didnt see anywhere- you also need to pull the bowl to get the emulsion tube out.
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Offline DavePhipps

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Re: Spark plugs are as black as night. Why?
« Reply #22 on: November 13, 2012, 03:45:20 AM »
2 stupid questions:  are the bike's current symptoms new?  has it ever run just fine with the current mods?
I got the bike with this setup. There were a host of other issues I had to take care of before getting to the carbs. It's been a rolling project for me. The oil leak is new, but the over rich condition has been there since purchase.

Luap, thanks for the info, but I figured it out.
I'll be removing the head and carbs for inspection this weekend. I'll post pictures of the sparkplugs then.
I tried taking pictures last night but everything turned out blurry.   
Bikes:
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74 CB550k
78 GL1000
72 CB500K

Offline Xnavylfr

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Re: Spark plugs are as black as night. Why?
« Reply #23 on: November 13, 2012, 05:34:12 AM »
OIL LEAK could be caused by the NICKEL seals under the cam towers on the head. If the bike has sit for a while they tend to dry up and not seal as well.These will take some in-depth parts removal and other maintenance to replace. These won't cause oil to be inside the exhaust pipe but will cause oil to seep out of the head and ALMOST impossible isolate where it's coming from!!!


Xnavylfr(CHUCK)

Offline DavePhipps

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Re: Spark plugs are as black as night. Why?
« Reply #24 on: November 13, 2012, 05:39:27 AM »
Those pucks were replaced this summer and checked a few weeks ago just to make sure.
Bikes:
90 FZR600 RA
74 CB550k
78 GL1000
72 CB500K