Author Topic: Can't set ignition timing cb550 right with electronic ignition  (Read 8465 times)

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Offline CB-Cape

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Can't set ignition timing cb550 right with electronic ignition
« on: January 06, 2013, 07:03:35 AM »
Does anyone know why I can’t adjust the ignition timing right on my 78 CB550K?

I have an electronic ignition unit on my bike. On idle ( 1100 rpm) I can align the index mark with the F (fire mark) but when I increase the engine speed to 3000 rpm or even more it seems like my advance unit doesn’t go far enough. I can’t align index mark between the two lines of the 1-4 F mark but just before

Offline CB-Cape

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Re: Can't set ignition timing cb550 right with electronic ignition
« Reply #1 on: January 06, 2013, 07:08:31 AM »
I’ve placed a movie file on YouTube but I don’t have a clue how to post that on this forum

Offline goldarrow

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Can't set ignition timing cb550 right with electronic ignition
« Reply #2 on: January 06, 2013, 07:13:03 AM »
Did you make sure valves tappets, cam timing to the T are properly adjusted before adjust ignition timing? Static timing to F mark next to T is sufficient and you will have better idle.  I think the main cause may be advanced spring too old
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Offline CB-Cape

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Re: Can't set ignition timing cb550 right with electronic ignition
« Reply #3 on: January 06, 2013, 07:22:23 AM »
Here I can place some sort of link to my YouTube movie: youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=RkyfSFXp6aI

« Last Edit: January 06, 2013, 07:24:21 AM by jrootselaar »

Offline goldarrow

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Can't set ignition timing cb550 right with electronic ignition
« Reply #4 on: January 06, 2013, 07:32:13 AM »
You need to keep posting to get post count up to 5, you are almost there.

www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=RkyfSFXp6aI
« Last Edit: January 06, 2013, 07:33:55 AM by goldarrow »
Life Is Full Of Challenges - And My Backyard Is Full Of SOHC4's

CB550 K0
CB750 K0, K2, K23 JDM, K45, K5
And the little ones z50r, xr50r, st90


750k5 http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=114817.0

Offline CB-Cape

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Re: Can't set ignition timing cb550 right with electronic ignition
« Reply #5 on: January 06, 2013, 07:44:35 AM »
Haha, cool thanks Goldarrow, I've found a nice way around it but this is even better! What do you think of the timing result in the movie?

Offline HondaMan

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Re: Can't set ignition timing cb550 right with electronic ignition
« Reply #6 on: January 06, 2013, 11:31:05 AM »
Recheck the gap between the magnet and the pickup/trigger device. If the gap is wrong, the timing will not advance correctly. This is a common problem with the aftermarket electronic pickups.
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

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Offline dave500

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Re: Can't set ignition timing cb550 right with electronic ignition
« Reply #7 on: January 06, 2013, 11:02:06 PM »
does it use the factory advancer?make sure the advancer unit is free to move,rev the engine to around 3500,then set the timing between the full advance marks,,where it comes to at idle so be it,,itll be slightly higher than the factory f mark,dont worry about it.

Offline CB-Cape

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Re: Can't set ignition timing cb550 right with electronic ignition
« Reply #8 on: January 07, 2013, 01:13:42 AM »
HondaMan, do i need to push in the gap between the magnet and the pickup/trigger device? in other words... do I need to make the gap smaller by pushing the two black trigger divices (pointed with red arrows) in the picture more towards the magnet?

« Last Edit: January 07, 2013, 01:15:43 AM by jrootselaar »

Offline CB-Cape

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Re: Can't set ignition timing cb550 right with electronic ignition
« Reply #9 on: January 07, 2013, 01:19:12 AM »
does it use the factory advancer?make sure the advancer unit is free to move,rev the engine to around 3500,then set the timing between the full advance marks,,where it comes to at idle so be it,,itll be slightly higher than the factory f mark,dont worry about it.

Hi dave500, yes it's the factory advancer and its free to move. Would and more advanced (earlier) idle ignition like that not damage te piston, rings and valves?
« Last Edit: January 07, 2013, 01:21:21 AM by jrootselaar »

Offline dave500

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Re: Can't set ignition timing cb550 right with electronic ignition
« Reply #10 on: January 07, 2013, 11:44:11 AM »
so long as the max advance is at the factory marks itll be ok,dont worry about what it ends up at idle,the marks arent dead accurate,you can have nearly 4 degrees lash in where the advancer pin locates into the crank,anyone getting all fussy setting points to the nth degree who hasnt dialed in the t and f marks is kidding themselves.
heres an example of lash,note the marks between the two photos,with the centre bolt loose this unit has this much lash.


some are better or worse than others.
« Last Edit: January 07, 2013, 11:58:17 AM by dave500 »

Offline thep1pe

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Re: Can't set ignition timing cb550 right with electronic ignition
« Reply #11 on: January 07, 2013, 12:08:25 PM »
What is the make of your electronic ign?

Offline CB-Cape

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Re: Can't set ignition timing cb550 right with electronic ignition
« Reply #12 on: January 07, 2013, 12:17:14 PM »
@Dave500 Thanks for your clear answer

@thep1pe its an electronic ignition from accent http://www.cmsnl.com/downloads/Ignition_En_rev_b.pdf

Offline HondaMan

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Re: Can't set ignition timing cb550 right with electronic ignition
« Reply #13 on: January 07, 2013, 09:55:28 PM »
HondaMan, do i need to push in the gap between the magnet and the pickup/trigger device? in other words... do I need to make the gap smaller by pushing the two black trigger divices (pointed with red arrows) in the picture more towards the magnet?



Well, I can only make an educated guess, as I haven't worked on that particular one. All but one of these aftermarket units use a Hall Effect transistorized switch as their trigger (the one that isn't this way is opto-electronic, different animal altogether). All of these Hall devices are very sensitive to the distance between them and their magnet. If the magnet is too far away, the trigger turns OFF too late in the revolution, and back ON too soon: this can make the spark appear to not fully advance under the typical timing light strobe. What is actually happening is this: at slow engine speed, the trigger stays OFF longer as the magnet takes longer to pass by the trigger. As the RPM rises toward 2500, the OFF pulse becomes too short, and the timing light, which adjusts itself to the now-weaker (and shorter duration) spark, triggers early and stretches the flash out so a human can see it. So, it appears that it is not advancing all the way, but in reality what is happening is: the spark duration is becoming very short instead. If you attempt to ride the bike, it will feel listless at 4k+ RPM from the very short, weak spark.

A direct example: in the 1970-1990-something era of Dyna S, when their backplate was made of circuit board material (much like your new unit), Dyna used to give a nice manual that showed how far the pickups should be adjusted away from the magnet in their rotor. IIRC, it was in the range of .015" to .025", and it it was more than .030" the engines lost considerable power above 6000 RPM. Starting in the late 1990s, Dyna changed their pickups to a more sensitive type so this gap could be made wider, because many of the pickups were getting hit by out-of-true spark advancers, and were being damaged. This new gap is more like .028" to 0.033", and has to be set precisely with feeler gages and the like.

So, I would suspect that your new unit has some sort of spec about how big the gap between those pickups and the magnet pole in the advancer should be. Use a feeler gage between them to help you make a consistent setting. If there is no spec, try the tried-and-true electronic industry setting of .030" first to see if it helps: on many Hall-Effect magnetic industrial sensors (for automated machinery), this is their magic number. You can usually go down to .020" before saturating the Hall Effect junction: if it gets saturated then you will have no spark at all when the magnet swings past the sensor. If you go too far away, it simply will not trigger.
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
Hondaman's creed: "Bikers are family. Treat them accordingly."

Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

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Offline dave500

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Re: Can't set ignition timing cb550 right with electronic ignition
« Reply #14 on: January 07, 2013, 10:48:34 PM »
the boyer uses a reluctor unit,im sure others do aswell,the hall effect is an electronic switch passing a small voltage triggered by the passing magnet,the reluctor actually generates a small voltage as the magnet passes,some people confuse the two,the optical would be the worst of the lot,have a look how any dissy on autos is triggered on the last of the dissy equipped autos,the lucas had the optical,then went reluctor,if your unit is new dont tamper with it.
« Last Edit: January 07, 2013, 10:53:18 PM by dave500 »

Offline CB-Cape

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Re: Can't set ignition timing cb550 right with electronic ignition
« Reply #15 on: January 08, 2013, 07:16:08 AM »
so long as the max advance is at the factory marks itll be ok,dont worry about what it ends up at idle,the marks arent dead accurate,you can have nearly 4 degrees lash in where the advancer pin locates into the crank,anyone getting all fussy setting points to the nth degree who hasnt dialed in the t and f marks is kidding themselves.
some are better or worse than others.

@dave500 You are right about the lash where the advancer pin locates into the crank. See movie file where you can see the amount of lash on my advancer unit.

Lash advancer pin cb550

I’ve followed your advice to set the max advance at the factory mark and a bit over the F mark.

What I find strange though is that there also seems a bit of difference between the timing of 1-4 and 2-3. If I set the max  advance timing right for 2-3 it still seems a bit of for 1-4?


« Last Edit: January 08, 2013, 07:35:40 AM by CB-Cape »

Offline CB-Cape

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Re: Can't set ignition timing cb550 right with electronic ignition
« Reply #16 on: January 08, 2013, 07:34:14 AM »
@HondaMan unfortunatly I can't adjust the pickups because they are set in some sort of resin

Offline Deltarider

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Re: Can't set ignition timing cb550 right with electronic ignition
« Reply #17 on: January 08, 2013, 07:42:43 AM »
Both Dave and CB-Cape, compliments for your excellent pictures.
I've wondered for a while if a (spring?)washer under the head of the bolt in the middle of the advancer would help.
CB-Cape, could you tell us how you shot your pics?
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Offline CB-Cape

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Re: Can't set ignition timing cb550 right with electronic ignition
« Reply #18 on: January 08, 2013, 08:06:11 AM »
Thanks Deltarider. I've used a macrolens on my Nikon D90. The 4 timing pictures are basicly a screen capture of a movie file i've filmed with that same D90 and lens.

Offline dave500

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Re: Can't set ignition timing cb550 right with electronic ignition
« Reply #19 on: January 08, 2013, 12:31:12 PM »
a washer under the bolt wont help,,its where the advancer ends up when its locked down,itll be plus or minus a little,the circuit board might have a slightly loose fit in those three lugs in the case,you might be able to wrangle it around to square up the gap using some sort of shim to locate it,most advancers will end up being locked up in the slightly advanced direction from the nuts friction,i try and make sure thats how they lock up,better a slight advance than retard i think being so slight.

Offline HondaMan

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Re: Can't set ignition timing cb550 right with electronic ignition
« Reply #20 on: January 08, 2013, 08:35:45 PM »
Maybe also check the shaft that mounts the advancer, for concentricity. On the 750 in particular (bigger bores, more drag), folks who pull the big nut back & forth (with the sparkplugs in) when setting points timing inadvertently bend this shaft. This mostly affects the 2-3 timing due to the location of the little dowel that aligns the baseplate: when bent, the shaft cause the points cam to not be perpendicular to the engine. So, the 2-3 side becomes a little "late" compared to the 1-4 side timing when this happens. Removing the advancer and tapping the shaft straight again (using a dial indicator and SMALL hammer) fixes most of them right up.
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
Hondaman's creed: "Bikers are family. Treat them accordingly."

Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

Link to My CB750 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?adult_audience_rating=00&page=1&pageSize=10&q=my+cb750+book

Link to website: www.SOHC4shop.com

Offline CB-Cape

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Re: Can't set ignition timing cb550 right with electronic ignition
« Reply #21 on: January 09, 2013, 08:08:44 AM »
I see that the original breaker point base plate has the option to adjust cylinder 2-3 individual (with the two screws on the picture below). Seeing that I've quite a bit of difference between the timing on cylinder 1-4 and cylinder 2-3 I don't understand why there is no option to do this on my new electronic unit. I'm going to try to install the old breaker plate back on my bike soon to see if I can adjust the full advance timing better and to have the same timing on 1-4 and 2-3. than I maybe will find out if it's a problem in the aftermarket unit or a problem with the concentricity of the shaft as described by HondaMan. I personally now expect the electronically unit, either a wrong position of the trigger pickup devices or a crappy notch on the crankshaft (the turning one with the magnets in there)
Of course I will let you guys know what the result is.
Thanks BTW for all your input!

Offline Deltarider

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Re: Can't set ignition timing cb550 right with electronic ignition
« Reply #22 on: January 09, 2013, 10:13:14 AM »
Be aware that the little bolts on the ignition plate should have both washers and spring washers. To be specific: the bolts that fasten the breaker points and the two that fasten that extra 2&3 plate. Some manuals (Haynes) do not show them. The spring washers are even missed in some Honda pictures! Be extremely precise mounting/adjusting breaker points. Insulation rings are tiny and a mistake is easily made. Whilst you're there, you may check if the little lubrication felt is still there and in the right position.
« Last Edit: January 09, 2013, 10:19:08 AM by Deltarider »
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