Author Topic: CB550 For those without airbox  (Read 9023 times)

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Offline prov431

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CB550 For those without airbox
« on: March 01, 2013, 04:31:07 PM »
What did you do with the breather hose...mine is just pointing to the ground just past the battery...not sure I love it.

Offline Scott S

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Re: CB550 For those without airbox
« Reply #1 on: March 01, 2013, 05:25:30 PM »
 You can put a breather filter on it, but that's mostly to make you feel good and maybe keep a stray bug out.
 The CB500 came with the breather vented to the atmosphere. Later bikes vented the gases to the airbox to be recirculated. No air box = vent it to the atmosphere.
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Offline cbtex

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Re: CB550 For those without airbox
« Reply #2 on: March 01, 2013, 05:27:42 PM »
This is what I did on my '78 550.

Offline Dimitri13

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Re: CB550 For those without airbox
« Reply #3 on: March 01, 2013, 09:34:23 PM »
I had mine routed under the battery.

Offline dave500

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Re: CB550 For those without airbox
« Reply #4 on: March 01, 2013, 11:45:29 PM »
its best to be rigged up to hang low and have a draught created at its end,this draws contaminants away,ok untill you have an older smokey/fumey engine that drops oil out of it straight in front of the rear wheel,just hanging at the rear of the case not in a draught its doing nothing,the ones hooked to the air box used the slight vacuum in the box as the draw.

Online Deltarider

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Re: CB550 For those without airbox
« Reply #5 on: March 01, 2013, 11:55:10 PM »
That breather thing was not very popular on this side of the Atlantic and many had it disconnected. When Das Motorrad, the biggest German motormagazine, tested the CB550F2 (18, 1977) they had the airfilter element fouled all the time resulting in reduced airflow through the airfilter affecting performance. At the end of the testperiod, they had found that as long as one didn't top up the oil but had it halfway the dipstick as maximum, the airfilter element would remain more or less clean.
My advice: if you want it like designed, have it checked regularly, very regularly indeed.
I advised a friend with a 550K3 to simply disconnect it (after consulting a dealer who said they did this often) and the fouling of the airfilter element ofcourse was over.
TT will argue that all these people didn't understand the design and neglected maintenance. It's your choice.
For those that read German and are interested http://www.d-roggenbuck.de/Cb_550_F2.pdf
Now you don't have that airbox, so I suggest you have the tube like Dave mentioned.
My 1976 model didn't come with that breather thing and I can assure you: there's not much pollution. Moreover I compensate by riding my pedal bike as much as possible, use public transport and share a car with others. I'm a happy user of the genuine Honda paper filter element that is serviced within 10 seconds and when renewed after 18.000 kms is still in good condition. As a matter of fact I keep them in my basement for reserve. So far I have not witnessed any detoriation by being exposed to whatever. Except for one (very dirty) they all perform well at WOT in 5th. Genuine Honda filters are still there for a reasonable price and good imitations go for as little as € 20,-. You may check Dave Silver and others.
« Last Edit: March 02, 2013, 02:58:26 AM by Deltarider »
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Offline dave500

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Re: CB550 For those without airbox
« Reply #6 on: March 02, 2013, 12:53:00 AM »
Moreover I compensate by riding my pedal bike as much as possible, use public transport and share a car with others.
 
       that does not compute?we;re into riding our hondas around as much as possible,,even needlessly!

Offline prov431

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Re: CB550 For those without airbox
« Reply #7 on: March 02, 2013, 02:43:00 AM »
I should have been more specfic - my breather tube is routed past the battery and then pointing downward just behind the swingarm...it's basically in front of the rear tire, which was my initial concern of spitting oil at the tire. I like the breather idea, hanging in the same spot....I might give that a try.
Thanks!

Offline TwoTired

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Re: CB550 For those without airbox
« Reply #8 on: March 02, 2013, 02:50:00 AM »
TT will argue that all these people didn't understand the design and neglected maintenance. It's your choice.
I will also argue that the US models don't have the inlet restrictor cover (favored by those speaking german) which causes very low pressure levels inside the filter box.

Further, there appear to be two different lengths of pipes on the breather element holder which changes the route the breather fumes take to reach the carb inlets.  My bikes have the longer one, don't have the German favored filter box inlet restrictor, and didn't foul the paper element when I still used one.  Since the US models don't have the big pressure drop caused by a small inlet restrictor, the filter is the first thing to present a pressure drop to the inflowing air (on US models).  Wet a piece of paper and it turns back into limp pulp.  The paper element fibers react in a similar way.  If there exists a major pressure drop across its membrane, the differential behaves as a compression device, mashing the fibers closer together.  As the weather becomes damp, the paper fibers begin to revert back to pulp, deform, and it collapses into itself.  If your induction is like the US models, then a collapsed filter becomes much more significant at making a bigger pressure drop and the carb mixtures become too rich to the point of fouling spark plugs.  I speculate the tiny inlet restrictor for German models is there to extend filter use so it won't be the major contributor to pressure drop effects.  ...maybe.  But, I don't really care about fixing those models, just the ones the rest of the world uses.  Honda stipulates for the US models that the filter be replaced at 1 year intervals.  In my climate, the paper filter always began sooting the spark plug mid to late rainy season and no amount of "cleaning" made it work as well as a new paper filter.  When Honda raised the filter prices to $50 per item, I switched to the Uni foam type which is cleanable and reusable.  I could never find a way to return the "fluff" back to original in the paper filters, and there is simply no way to completely clean all the dirt out of a paper filter so it doesn't become a significant player in the inlet pressure drop.  If you have a different inlet mechanism to provide the most significant pressure drop for the inlet, the effect of a clogging filter will likely be difficult to notice.  And, if both sides of the filter element have the same pressure, the compression effects upon the paper are reduced.

My 1976 model didn't come with that breather thing and I can assure you: there's not much pollution.
Based on what measurement data, do you offer those assurances?

The EPA, and even earlier the CARB, identified crankcase vapor as a major contributor to air pollution and began mandating crankcase recovery systems for autos in the 60's.  They didn't bring pollution focus onto bikes until the mid to late 70's.  I believe it is pretty much standard equipment on anything made since the 80's.
Here in California every car newer than 1975 must get a bi-annual smog inspection.  Right there on the inspection check list is to verify the crankcase breather recovery system is functioning.  The breather recovery system is nearly a no cost, no downside effort to reduce completely unnecessary pollutants in properly designed and maintained systems.

Perhaps the other side of the Atlantic gets a constant air replenishment off the ocean and pollution effects get shifted to other countries which cannot control the source of the pollution upwind in another country?   

What did you do with the breather hose...mine is just pointing to the ground just past the battery...not sure I love it.

Imo.  You should not love it.  Unless, you can permanently hold your breath, and teach everyone else how to do that, too.   ;D  ;D ;D



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Offline dave500

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Re: CB550 For those without airbox
« Reply #9 on: March 02, 2013, 02:51:26 AM »
the filter looks trick but is not,just let it hang open,if anything the filter will hamper the draw through the hose and will only clog up and make it worse,be smart,dont put the filter on your breather,if the hose is pissing oil badly you need a rebore,its blow by.

Offline dave500

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Re: CB550 For those without airbox
« Reply #10 on: March 02, 2013, 02:52:47 AM »
how many key boards this week tt?

Offline dave500

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Re: CB550 For those without airbox
« Reply #11 on: March 02, 2013, 02:56:21 AM »
the honda system isnt a proper positive crankcase ventilation system though.

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Re: CB550 For those without airbox
« Reply #12 on: March 02, 2013, 04:51:04 AM »
None of the 550s had restrictors (as you call them), not even here.
Quote
Perhaps the other side of the Atlantic gets a constant air replenishment off the ocean and pollution effects get shifted to other countries which cannot control the source of the pollution upwind in another country?

 ;D ;D ;D Good one TT, we get far to little air replenishment from the USA. It's a shame we have so little winds from Calif. I was on a hill top once overlooking part of LA. and I must admit: you guys sure do well, uch uch uch. When I had lifted my sunglasses the air was still tobaccobrown. Amazing. No need to smoke. I figure Californians can't wait to see the Chinese across the pond start commuting with V8s and other obesities. Didn't they buy Hummer lately? Sounds promising. Boy, the best is yet to come.
But in all honesty, in Holland we have very bad air (The Ruhr area in Germany contributes a lot) and in even more honesty from what I've read, I wouldn't be a bit surprised if the first really usable electric cars will come from California. I find that interesting. In 1906 just before the San Francisco eartquake there were more electric cars in American cities than petrol cars. Then came the quake and it was obvious to anyone that you could rely on (firebrigade) cars that ran on petrol (easy to fill up) where the electric cars pretty soon came to a standstil. I don't know if it is true but I've read somewhere that the event 1906 has been the turning point, where before everybody had expected the electric car to win over the internal combustion car.
BTW as far as I know the recirculation of blow-by-gas was not to avoid fumes as much as to get rid of all the little oildrops on the turmac that can build to, as we all know, a very dangerous track for motorcyclist (especially in rain after a dry period). That certainly has improved a lot.
« Last Edit: March 02, 2013, 05:38:51 AM by Deltarider »
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Offline dave500

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Re: CB550 For those without airbox
« Reply #13 on: March 02, 2013, 04:57:54 AM »
man if you drove my car for like two two minutes delta youd say #$%* the smog man!if you rode my bike youd say why dosent mine go like this?
« Last Edit: March 03, 2013, 12:27:33 AM by dave500 »

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Re: CB550 For those without airbox
« Reply #14 on: March 02, 2013, 05:09:39 AM »
Quote
if you rode my bike youd say why dosent mine go like this?
Watch it fellah! ;)
There's this expression in Dutch: Ze kunnen beter over je fiets lullen dan over je lul fietsen. (They'd better lul over your ride than ride over your lul. (lul is a slang verb for talk, gossip, but also slang for dick). Damn, I knew you can't translate these sayings.   
« Last Edit: March 02, 2013, 05:13:49 AM by Deltarider »
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Offline dave500

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Re: CB550 For those without airbox
« Reply #15 on: March 02, 2013, 05:15:58 AM »
dont #$%* me around with your double dutch,,so you want to race?or just drive my car?

Offline dave500

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Re: CB550 For those without airbox
« Reply #16 on: March 02, 2013, 05:21:55 AM »
he said the same stuff in two different languages,,thats double dutch?and hes in somewhere close to holland?

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Re: CB550 For those without airbox
« Reply #17 on: March 02, 2013, 05:49:22 AM »
I'll triple dutch you, you double tongued...  I just finished some mods... check this below my friend and remain silent.
« Last Edit: March 02, 2013, 06:18:59 AM by Deltarider »
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Offline dave500

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Re: CB550 For those without airbox
« Reply #18 on: March 02, 2013, 05:53:33 AM »
umm?men dont give men dutch treats for a start,,err,unless thats your thing?thanks anyway but count me out,i dont know what to make of that photo though?youll be hard pressed trying to keep an aussie silent!


now back to prov431,,if your pipe had as much suck as these last few posts youd be alright!
« Last Edit: March 02, 2013, 05:58:32 AM by dave500 »

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Re: CB550 For those without airbox
« Reply #19 on: March 02, 2013, 06:16:12 AM »
Ooops, I'm sorry and I suspect a misunderstanding. As far as I remember a Dutch treat means something like: you take a girl out for dinner and let her pay. Wasn't that so? I suspect the expression has become something vulgar. My apologies, I am not a native speaker. Post above modified.
« Last Edit: March 02, 2013, 06:20:19 AM by Deltarider »
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Offline SohRon

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Re: CB550 For those without airbox
« Reply #20 on: March 02, 2013, 07:57:30 AM »
Just leave the hose routed as it is to act as a draft tube. Its purpose is to clear blow-by from the crankcase; these bikes use a crankcase evacuation system which is different from a crankcase ventilation system in that the case is sealed, requiring a vacuum be established in the case in order to remove crankcase contaminants via the breather hose. The hose should be extended down just past the bottom of the engine so that a venturi effect is created at the tip.

Use of a filter at the end of the hose, or not routing the hose correctly are bad ideas in that they defeat the purpose of the draft tube and will rot your engine from the inside out due to acid contamination (really nasty stuff being created in there from blow-by gasses) and by creating positive crankcase pressure which leads to oil leaks and introduces back pressures that can impede performance.

I'd say go back to the original air induction system or, at the very least, properly rout the tube so that the case has at least some relief from blow-by.
« Last Edit: March 02, 2013, 11:50:10 AM by SohRon »
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Assembling my '74 CB550: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=86697.0
Assembly of the Right-hand Switch (a rebuilder's guide):  http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=80532.0
Installing stock 4X4 exhaust: CB500-CB550 K: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=82323.0
CB550 Assembly Manual: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,151576.0.html

Offline cbtex

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Re: CB550 For those without airbox
« Reply #21 on: March 02, 2013, 10:11:11 AM »
Something I read.................

A reason to install a crankcase breather separate from the air filter someday:
"When blowby occurs on an engine using a crankcase vent routed into the air filter, oil makes its way through the engine breather into the air cleaner [or airbox] and is then pulled into the engine along with the fresh intake charge and burned. That oil tends to carbon up the rings and glaze the cylinder walls resulting in a less than perfect top end seal. Once this occurs the die is cast. The poor top end seal leads to more blowby which pushes even more oil into the intake air which is then forced into the engine creating more blowby and so it goes."

In a healthy engine this isn't a problem, you're not really getting an oil mist blowing into the carb or throttle body,  just air created by some over pressure in the crankcase, nothing to worry about.  If, someday, you find a film of oil inside the air box (assuming a stock intake) then it might be time to pull the hose and vent it outside.  If you install an aftermarket air cleaner you might choose to add a breather instead of drilling a hole in the back of your new air cleaner.

Offline prov431

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Re: CB550 For those without airbox
« Reply #22 on: March 02, 2013, 10:20:26 AM »
Hate to get you guys all in a tizzy....I was just curious about my breather hose!

So here it is....I'm not getting any oil mess, I was just being proactive; if it should stay where it is, then so be it..it stays and I'm a happy camper  ;D

Offline SohRon

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Re: CB550 For those without airbox
« Reply #23 on: March 02, 2013, 10:22:27 AM »
Quote
A reason to install a crankcase breather separate from the air filter someday:
"When blowby occurs on an engine using a crankcase vent routed into the air filter, oil makes its way through the engine breather into the air cleaner [or airbox] and is then pulled into the engine along with the fresh intake charge and burned. That oil tends to carbon up the rings and glaze the cylinder walls resulting in a less than perfect top end seal. Once this occurs the die is cast. The poor top end seal leads to more blowby which pushes even more oil into the intake air which is then forced into the engine creating more blowby and so it goes."

You may have read this on an automotive site; the stock air induction system on these bikes has been engineered to eliminate this problem through a system of catch-cans and filters. It's one reason folks here are so adamantly opposed to removal of the stock airbox...




But then, what do those dunderhead engineers at Honda know, anyway?   ;)
"He slipped back down the alley with some roly-poly little bat-faced girl..."

Assembling my '74 CB550: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=86697.0
Assembly of the Right-hand Switch (a rebuilder's guide):  http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=80532.0
Installing stock 4X4 exhaust: CB500-CB550 K: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=82323.0
CB550 Assembly Manual: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,151576.0.html

Offline TwoTired

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Re: CB550 For those without airbox
« Reply #24 on: March 02, 2013, 10:27:08 AM »
the honda system isnt a proper positive crankcase ventilation system though.

True.  It is a proper recovery system, though.  The goal is recovery and burning the hydrocarbons, rather than dosing lungs.
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Offline prov431

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Re: CB550 For those without airbox
« Reply #25 on: March 02, 2013, 01:44:18 PM »
Yes, I saw that drawing referenced in one of the forum download service manuals...I bought the bike w/o airbox, so I'm working with what I've got. With all the grief these pods are giving me (and I can't get hold of Brian for an "antipod" system, I'm ready to track down a stock airbox......or just sell the bike and go back to my happy late model sport bike days!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Offline Retro Rocket

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Re: CB550 For those without airbox
« Reply #26 on: March 02, 2013, 02:35:40 PM »
umm?men dont give men dutch treats for a start,,err,unless thats your thing?thanks anyway but count me out,i dont know what to make of that photo though?youll be hard pressed trying to keep an aussie silent!


now back to prov431,,if your pipe had as much suck as these last few posts youd be alright!


Wonder if Delta cooks in a Dutch oven Dave.... :o ;D
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Offline dave500

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Re: CB550 For those without airbox
« Reply #27 on: March 02, 2013, 03:18:41 PM »
i was waiting for something like that!

Online Deltarider

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Re: CB550 For those without airbox
« Reply #28 on: March 03, 2013, 12:20:47 AM »
Please, what is a 'Dutch oven'. As I've said before: I'm here to learn English, e-ven-tu-al-ly.
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Offline dave500

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Re: CB550 For those without airbox
« Reply #29 on: March 03, 2013, 12:23:40 AM »

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Re: CB550 For those without airbox
« Reply #30 on: March 03, 2013, 01:09:55 AM »
Quote
you asked for it.
http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=dutch%20oven

As I read it, all definitions for the same thing: blow-by gas recircled. ;D
« Last Edit: March 03, 2013, 01:28:45 AM by Deltarider »
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Offline dave500

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Re: CB550 For those without airbox
« Reply #31 on: March 03, 2013, 01:29:28 AM »
yeah so the 550 blow by hose operates on the dutch oven system,not entirely pleasant for the engine,i imagine the small air bleeds in the carb mouth getting clogged after a while,a proper pcv system operates after the throttle into direct vacuum in most systems.

Offline SohRon

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Re: CB550 For those without airbox
« Reply #32 on: March 03, 2013, 07:21:48 AM »
Yes, I saw that drawing referenced in one of the forum download service manuals...I bought the bike w/o airbox, so I'm working with what I've got. With all the grief these pods are giving me (and I can't get hold of Brian for an "antipod" system, I'm ready to track down a stock airbox......or just sell the bike and go back to my happy late model sport bike days!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I can understand your frustration with the pod setup... seems like there are quite a few in the same boat. The stock airbox is a challenge in itself to put together; most I've seen on ebay or elsewhere are missing parts, so there's some scrounging to do to actually put one together right - but I'm living proof that it's possible! With the proper air induction set-up, you can return the carbs to factory settings quite easily and (at least reduce) that part of the frustration!

With that said, if you're finding adjustment for pods difficult and are frustrated by the airbox then, yes, you're not likely to have much fun with one of these old bikes. They were made in a time when hands-on fiddling was not only possible but pretty much required! And to try and resurrect one today may be more work than you're willing to do if messing with mechanicals isn't your bag.

The new bikes usually don't need a lot of fooling about with, and you can take them to the dealer for any maintenance work and not get your hands dirty!   ;)

yeah so the 550 blow by hose operates on the dutch oven system,not entirely pleasant for the engine,i imagine the small air bleeds in the carb mouth getting clogged after a while,a proper pcv system operates after the throttle into direct vacuum in most systems.

It's not a PCV system, it's crankcase evacuation, and the holes don't get clogged because the stock airbox has a series of filters that prevent this, at least on a '550!  ;)
« Last Edit: March 03, 2013, 07:30:10 AM by SohRon »
"He slipped back down the alley with some roly-poly little bat-faced girl..."

Assembling my '74 CB550: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=86697.0
Assembly of the Right-hand Switch (a rebuilder's guide):  http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=80532.0
Installing stock 4X4 exhaust: CB500-CB550 K: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=82323.0
CB550 Assembly Manual: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,151576.0.html

Online Deltarider

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Re: CB550 For those without airbox
« Reply #33 on: March 03, 2013, 08:04:11 AM »
Quote
has a series of filters that prevent this, at least on a '550!
Sure and H2O passes nonetheless and with it... but I'm starting to repeat myself. Those with foam filters probably will not even notice.
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Offline SohRon

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Re: CB550 For those without airbox
« Reply #34 on: March 03, 2013, 08:17:34 AM »
Quote
has a series of filters that prevent this, at least on a '550!
Sure and H2O passes nonetheless and with it... but I'm starting to repeat myself. Those with foam filters probably will not even notice.

The filters are set up to eliminate water, too! There are at least four steps the blow-by goes through before the stuff hits the carbs, specifically designed to reduce the oil and water vapor. I'm not saying it works perfectly as I have no way to measure it; I guess I just have to trust that the engineers at Honda knew what they were doing when they designed the system!  :o ;)
« Last Edit: March 03, 2013, 08:36:55 AM by SohRon »
"He slipped back down the alley with some roly-poly little bat-faced girl..."

Assembling my '74 CB550: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=86697.0
Assembly of the Right-hand Switch (a rebuilder's guide):  http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=80532.0
Installing stock 4X4 exhaust: CB500-CB550 K: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=82323.0
CB550 Assembly Manual: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,151576.0.html

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Re: CB550 For those without airbox
« Reply #35 on: March 03, 2013, 09:11:16 AM »
Quote
The filters are set up to eliminate water, too!
Sure, but eliminate watervapour (waterdamp?) they won't. I have seen quite a few 550 paper air filter elements that all had that same brownish soft (wettened) spot reducing the elements flow performance. But please test it out and inform us. I wonder how many of you still have the genuine Honda cellulose filter element inside.
« Last Edit: March 03, 2013, 09:16:53 AM by Deltarider »
CB500K2-ED Excel black
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