Topic: Problems with standard ignition, especially with centrifugal advancer (CB 550)

[Oette]

Hi Guys,

since I am near to finish my running project I need your help for my ignition issues.

I managed to fire her up, then tried to adjust the ignition with my stroboscope. The manual provided all necessary informations to get the right properties.

I adjusted the ignition at the "F"-mark for cylinder 1 and 4, then went on with the smaller adjustable plate to get the right position at the "F" for cylinder 2 and 3. Here my problems started.

The small plate is already at its limit and I can't move the ignition timing more forward to reach the "F"-mark. It is stuck at the "T"-Mark what means that cylinder 2 and 3 fire about 5 degrees too late. Look at this photo here, it's marked.




But that's one story. The other one is, that my centrifugal advancer doesn't advance the ignition timing enough at 2500rpm or above.
The manual says, that above 2500 rpm the advancer has to reach the marks right above the numbers 1-4 and 2-3. The timing where my advancer stucks is shown in the picture below.



I really don't know what to do. I already checked the whole system and replaced the springs with some of another advancer which is not useable because of other traits anymore, but there is still no difference.

Do you have any tips for me?

Kindest Regards,

Oette

[bollingball]

What is the brand name of the points? TEC or Dihachi? I think there is a post in the thoughts of HondaMan and also TT has a write up about shimming the plate with the cheaper grade dihachi brand. This same problem keeps popping back up from time to time. I don't recall just what the fix is I use TEC points and plate from the Honda dealer and have no issues. Maybe some one will chime in sorry. But tell us what points you have. I think you may have to fudge on the gap on the points.
Ken

[Steve_K]

Plus on what bollingball said,  one also could check if the lube on the advancer is stiff.  The stuff is  near40 years old. 
Steve

[bjbuchanan]

I created a thread which might help you as I had the sane issues. I can't link but in the top left search bar type in setting your points. I think it will fix your problem up. Shimming of the timing plate is probably what you need to do, bottom right corner

[Dave Voss]

Most repair manuals are fairly light on the details needed to fully understand how inter-related the points gap and the ignition timing is between the 1-4 cylinders and the 2-3 cylinders.  Here is what I do, keeping in mind that this is NOT what you'll read in the manuals, but it really does work well for setting the points and timing.

First, make sure the points are in good condition  If there is light pitting, file them smooth, if there is heavy pitting, consider replacing them.  Next, adjust the point gaps for the 1-4 and 2-3 cylinders to the recommend gap (I like to set them between .012-.014).

After adjusting the points, start the engine and let it warm up.  Temporarily raise the idle to about 3000 rpm to allow the ignition advance to reach maximum.  Connect a timing light to the cylinder 1 or 4 spark plug wire and adjust the timing (by spinning the ignition plate) until the maximum advance marks line up with the pointer.

Now connect the timing light to the cylinder 2 or 3 spark plug wire and move the 2-3 ignition points as necessary until the maximum advance marks also line up with the pointer.  If the range of motion for the 2-3 ignition points does not allow proper setting of the timing, then the range can be shifted by resetting the points gap for the 1-4 ignition points.  So, if it was set at .012, try setting it to .014.  It may not seem like this would make much difference, but it does.

From my experience, having all four cylinders fire with the same ignition timing is more important for smooth running than having both sets of ignition points with the same gap, provided both sets of points are within the recommended range.  After confirming that all cylinders are synched at the same maximum ignition timing, reduce the idle to the normal rpm, and observe the timing at idle.  If the advance mechanism is functioning perfectly, and the idle is set perfectly, the 'F' mark should line up.

Don't worry too much if it doesn't, as it could be due to the idle rpm being slightly off, which affects the amount of ignition advance.  Also remember that the exact ignition timing at idle under no load is far less important than in gear under load at higher rpm.

[Rgconner]

Also... Hooking the light up to a spare battery will make it strobe steadily compared to hooking it to the bike's battery.

[englishwheeler]

I'm having the same issue with 1-4 cylinders. I have TEC points.

[scottly]

But that's one story. The other one is, that my centrifugal advancer doesn't advance the ignition timing enough at 2500rpm or above.
The manual says, that above 2500 rpm the advancer has to reach the marks right above the numbers 1-4 and 2-3. The timing where my advancer stucks is shown in the picture below.



I really don't know what to do. I already checked the whole system and replaced the springs with some of another advancer which is not useable because of other traits anymore, but there is still no difference.

Do you have any tips for me?

Kindest Regards,

Oette

The advancer may not be retracting fully at idle speed, so 1/2 of the advance is already used. Check the initial setting statically. You may need stronger springs?

[lucky]

I can solve all of these problems for you right now.
I was a dealership Honda mechanic when these bikes were introduced.

You are not the only one having this same exact problem.
The problem is that you need a shop manual and you need to follow the instructions.

The timing light is ONLY to see if the advance is working THATS it.
You don't really ned it believe it or not. It is not like a car.

Set your points to open using a multimeter set on the ohms X 1000 scale.
Make sure you have a new set of points and condensers and you MUST have a dwell meter which you can get from Sears.
The dwell meter is used when the engine is RUNNING. After you set the points with the ohm meter.


The point gap and the dwell MUST be right. At the same time.
Set the points to the minimum gap. /As they wear the gap will get wider.


The timing light is ONLY ONLY to check to see if the timing is advancing NOT to see when the points fire. That is why you are having so much trouble. It is NOT a CAR.


Now I will post a photo for you about the timing light and mark.
The timing mark should line up on the mark when the timing advances at about 2500 rpm. The ADVANCE TIMING MARKS.

At idle the the "T" should show up with the timing light.
But do not reset the points after you have used the ohm meter to statically set them.

You do not actually even need to check with the timing light  if you do not want to, as long as the advancer is not completely rusted solid.
As long as the advance unit is oiled and has both springs just install it and leave it alone.

Forget about the timing light. IT is messing you up.
You do NOT use the timing light to check when the points open.
CLICK on the photo below for a larger image.

The most important thing is the gap and when the points actually open.

[scottly]

Oette, don't believe a word of lucky's last post. I'm not going to waste my time trying to explain each and every error in it.

[englishwheeler]

Lucky, then what am I supposed to do when I can't get the F mark to line up on cylinders 1-4 using the ohm meter?

[TwoTired]

About the marks.  The "T" mark describes the crank position where Top Dead Center or TDC occurs.  This is where piston reaches the top of its stroke.  It is also used to set the "tappets".

The next mark is labeled "F" and is where the spark should occur slightly before TDC.

I've been able to get each of my point sets to align properly by shimming the points plate as described in the FAQ.  This is mostly required when one insists on using a strobe light to check dynamic timing.  When the plate is loosened for dynamic adjustment, the point cam, point springs, and lateral looseness of the plate within the mounts, makes the whole thing move about laterally (this also effects the gap and dwell, too).  A shim can hold it in proper relationship, but to get both in range may need some experimentation to find out which post needs the shim. (An alternate method is to peen the plate in the post area to make a zero tolerance fit.)

After years of insisting on a strobe adjustment for maximum accuracy, I have found that static adjustment of gap and timing with an ordinary instrument bulb and alligator clips has the engine running the same as with the strobe light method.  Every so often, I'll connect the strobe to verify timing advance operation on my bikes that have a personal run history.  I'll check everything with a new acquisition, of course.

[englishwheeler]

I'm not the smartest when it comes to the electrical stuff, but how does shimming the plate solve the problem?
My plate won't move any more to the right because the bolts are reaching the slot limit in the plate. Shimming the plate would not affect this at all.
I took the entire system off my other CB550 that is timed correctly and put them on this bike...didn't make a difference...just like Oette did.
How does one time a bike if they can't even get the marks to line up?

[bollingball]

At TT Glad to see you back. I thoroughly enjoy your answers to all of the questions you reply to. Not having the background you do I have to dig deep to understand what you are trying to get across. So here it goes.
TT
I've been able to get each of my point sets to align properly by shimming the points plate as described in the FAQ.  This is mostly required when one insists on using a strobe light to check dynamic timing.  When the plate is loosened for dynamic adjustment, the point cam, point springs, and lateral looseness of the plate within the mounts, makes the whole thing move about laterally (this also effects the gap and dwell, too).  A shim can hold it in proper relationship, but to get both in range may need some experimentation to find out which post needs the shim. (An alternate method is to peen the plate in the post area to make a zero tolerance fit.)
Ken
First off I have never had to shim or do any thing to my bike (78 750K). But if I did I would like to know what you are talking about in the red. I can not picture it in my head what or where you are peening or how this works. I am thinking you mean peen the plate on the bottom side next to the post?? But it seems to me a shim would do something different all together.

Ken

[TwoTired]

I'm not the smartest when it comes to the electrical stuff, but how does shimming the plate solve the problem?
My plate won't move any more to the right because the bolts are reaching the slot limit in the plate. Shimming the plate would not affect this at all.

Have read the FAQ?

Perhaps you need to expand your thought approach.  There is a different meaning of lateral movement with respect to rotational movement of the plate.
If the plate fits loosely in the post mounts, it can move laterally as well as rotationally .  Lateral movement of the plate changes dwell/gap as well as point opening timing in relation to the cam position.  The shim or plate peening ensures the plate can only move rotationally.

The plates of 30 years ago were fit toleranced more closely to the post retainment side dimension.  Relaxing dimension requirements makes for a part that is easier to make with less waste examples from production, and reduces quality control precision checking before or after delivery to distributors.   This allows higher profit margins or a reduction in sales price to stimulate more volume of sales.

[TwoTired]

(An alternate method is to peen the plate in the post area to make a zero tolerance fit.)

First off I have never had to shim or do any thing to my bike (78 750K). But if I did I would like to know what you are talking about in the red. I can not picture it in my head what or where you are peening or how this works. I am thinking you mean peen the plate on the bottom side next to the post?? But it seems to me a shim would do something different all together.

Thanks Ken, for the kind words.

If the main points plate is not retained tightly while the three screws are loosened, the plate can move laterally within the mount posts.  The point cam on a running engine pushes against one point spring and then alternately the other.  The springs transfer force from the point cam lobe to the points plate.  Without the tightened screws to hold the plate steady, the plate moves laterally within the post restraint bounds, adding/subtracting the plate's back and forth movement to each point's gap as the cam rotates.  Changing the point gap also changes the timing.

You must loosen the three screws to adjust the plate's rotational position while doing a dynamic timing adjustment.  To maintain consistent point gap, you must also ensure the main points plate cannot allow the point gap to change.  Unless you remove the point springs, a static check will away find the plate pressed against a retainment post by the point spring and you won't imediately observe any plate sloppiness when the screws are loosened.

To be certain the gap will not change during dynamic timing, either the plate is shimmed to eliminate any lateral (vs. rotational) movement of the main plate, or the plate itself is modified dimensionally so it can ONLY rotate.  If the plate moves laterally to the right,  the 2-3 points loose some gap making them "run out" of adjustment.  Moving the whole points plate to the left increases the 2-3 point gap while decreasing the 1-4 point gap.

Identify/locate the plate's interface position with the motor's mount post sides.  Best to do this with a bare plate with components removed.  At each post location on the plate peen the metal (smashing it between hammer and anvil) to slightly reduce the plate thickness in the mount area.  The metal will then extrude or flow outward increasing the circumferential dimension in the areas of the post retainment.  If done carefully, the plate will fit into the post retainers and only allow rotational movement.

The skill come in with deciding which of the three interface point needs to be grown for your particular points examples.  Worn rubbing blocks or poor point build geometry can require biasing the plate extrusion growth greater at one post interface location.  I would recommend doing the shim trick first, to find where the most growth is needed to have both points attain proper adjustment timing.

After a point plate is peened to fit properly in the motors posts, I suggest it be "married" to the motor.  New points would be transferred to the "married" plate when those parts need renewal.

I know this post would be better with pictures.  I simply don't have the time or inclination to make a pictorial document.  Sorry.

Cheers,

[lucky]

Lucky, then what am I supposed to do when I can't get the F mark to line up on cylinders 1-4 using the ohm meter?

There are two scribed lines with a "T" and "F" stamped next to them.
What you are trying to do is to get the single mark on the rotor to fall between the two scribed lines on the stator plate.
When you turn the engine over by hand  slowly the points will be closed and when the #1-4 timing mark comes up to the top the points will open and the volt/ohm meter will show high resistance (infinity symbol) That is when the points fire.

Very seldom is the advance unit not working right.
If it is very old and rusted and the springs are worn out it may be advancing late.
How many people on this forum have asked where to get new advance unit springs?
Almost no one.

READ TWO TIREDS #11 REPLY.
"After years of insisting on a strobe adjustment for maximum accuracy, I have found that static adjustment of gap and timing with an ordinary instrument bulb and alligator clips has the engine running the same as with the strobe light method.  Every so often, I'll connect the strobe to verify timing advance operation on my bikes that have a personal run history.  I'll check everything with a new acquisition, of course."


Lucky- If you use a volt /ohm meter on the ohms X 1000 scale your timing will be better than using a 12 volt light bulb. IF you do not believe this try it both ways .
You be the judge.


About that plate that the points are mounted on.......
The dealership almost NEVER changed that plate. They only changed the points sets and condensers when doing electrical tune ups.

Just like a car. When the distributor is set and timing light used, the distributor is bolted down. There is no reason to do it again. All that has to be done is new points installed when needed. Same idea.






 

[lucky]

I'm not the smartest when it comes to the electrical stuff, but how does shimming the plate solve the problem?
My plate won't move any more to the right because the bolts are reaching the slot limit in the plate. Shimming the plate would not affect this at all.
I took the entire system off my other CB550 that is timed correctly and put them on this bike...didn't make a difference...just like Oette did.
How does one time a bike if they can't even get the marks to line up?

As a prior dealership mechanic I can tell you what happens.
If you really know how to set the points and have done it many times and then you get a problem like this, the answer is that sometimes the bike you have either has the cam installed incorrectly, or the points plate is not the correct one.
Usually the bike does not run very well or at all.

Then you try to get the history of the bike and the owner may something like this:
"Well yes my friends worked on it and they said the cam was 180º off and changed it around. " Something like that.

Then you have to go back and find out if the cam is installed correctly.
Some models like the early CB350's would run with the cam in upside down but not very well.

[lucky]

One more thing...

When you set the points gap then you start it up and check the dwell you can almost never get both sets of points to be the same gap. Just the way it was made.
One set of points is usually .012 the other set may be .014 something like that.
But try to keep the gap as small as possible because the gap gets wider over time.

[lucky]

It is very hard to explain some of these procedures in writing as we all attach certain meanings to words and they may not be the same to another person.

This whole issue with this bike and this problem could be better explained in person.
Also changing the springs on the advancer unit is sure to complicate the entire issue.

You can call me names , tell other people not to listen to me, but I NEVER tell other people on this forum that so and so does not know what they are talking about.
I NEVER call anyone names. Have you?

[lucky]

Something you may or may not know.

The post next to the points set was so that a flat blade screwdriver could have a leverage point to pry against when adjusting to points set.


The flat blade of the screwdriver was halfway in the slot and the other half was up against the protruding post.

[TwoTired]

There are two scribed lines with a "T" and "F" stamped next to them.
What you are trying to do is to get the single mark on the rotor to fall between the two scribed lines on the stator plate.

I don't understand, why do you continue to espouse this?
The T and the F are labels for the marks.
The book says the F mark is 5 degrees Before TDC and that is where the plugs should fire at idle.  If you set between the marks the spark will occur nearer to TDC than 5 degrees BTDC.  Yes it will still run, but it is not what Honda prescribes and as the points wear, the timing will continue to be farther away from spec.
What is your reason for not complying with Honda recommendations?

[dave500]

"But try to keep the gap as small as possible because the gap gets wider over time."

umm?i think youll find as the rubbing block wears theyll close up a little or a lot lucky.

[TwoTired]

When you set the points gap then you start it up and check the dwell you can almost never get both sets of points to be the same gap. Just the way it was made.

I must disagree.  If one has the required prowess, it is easily done.  Particularly, if one makes the points plate a zero tolerance fit into the crankcase mount features.

One set of points is usually .012 the other set may be .014 something like that.

If one allows this to occur, the coil charge times will be different between the two coils.  This matters more when near red line operation as the time between coil discharges is much shorter, particularly on the CB550's higher red line.

[lucky]

There are two scribed lines with a "T" and "F" stamped next to them.
What you are trying to do is to get the single mark on the rotor to fall between the two scribed lines on the stator plate.

I don't understand, why do you continue to espouse this?
The T and the F are labels for the marks.
The book says the F mark is 5 degrees Before TDC and that is where the plugs should fire at idle.  If you set between the marks the spark will occur nearer to TDC than 5 degrees BTDC.  Yes it will still run, but it is not what Honda prescribes and as the points wear, the timing will continue to be farther away from spec.
What is your reason for not complying with Honda recommendations?

You are right. I am two tired I guess. lol
But he cannot seem to even get close. I guess you have to be there.