Author Topic: '78 CB750F jetting with 836 kit  (Read 1873 times)

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Offline KJ790

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'78 CB750F jetting with 836 kit
« on: June 03, 2013, 06:55:55 PM »
Hello everyone. I am just putting the finishing touches on my '78 CB750F and am trying to sort out the jetting. I put an 836 kit in and ported the head. The exhaust is the stock 4-1 with a straight through glass pack silencer. I rebuilt the carbs, and went up to 120 main jets with the stock pilot jets.

Right now, with the low speed screws out 3 turns it will idle perfectly, and when I twist the throttle it is very snappy. However, when I took it out on the road today it had a lean spot when I was cruising (just barely turning the throttle). If I turned the throttle past 1/4 turn it would pull hard and ran good. 3/4 turn and wide open it runs great, but from about 1/8 turn to 1/4 turn it gets lean and sputters. If I pull the choke on while I'm riding this sputter goes away and it revs cleanly at the troublesome throttle positioning.

I am thinking that I should try shimming the needles and see if it will help at all. Does this sound like I'm going in the right direction? Any input?
« Last Edit: June 05, 2013, 06:06:38 PM by KJ790 »
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Offline HondaMan

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Re: '78 CB750F jetting with 836 kit
« Reply #1 on: June 03, 2013, 08:04:30 PM »
Hello everyone. I am just putting the finishing touches on my '78 CB750F and am trying to sort out the jetting. I put an 836 kit in and ported the head. The exhaust is the stock 4-1 with a straight through glass pack silencer. I rebuilt the carbs, and went up to 125 main jets with the stock pilot jets.

Right now, with the low speed screws out 3 turns it will idle perfectly, and when I twist the throttle it is very snappy. However, when I took it out on the road today it had a lean spot when I was cruising (just barely turning the throttle). If I turned the throttle past 1/4 turn it would pull hard and ran good. 3/4 turn and wide open it runs great, but from about 1/8 turn to 1/4 turn it gets lean and sputters. If I pull the choke on while I'm riding this sputter goes away and it revs cleanly at the troublesome throttle positioning.

I am thinking that I should try shimming the needles and see if it will help at all. Does this sound like I'm going in the right direction? Any input?

Do you also have individual pod air filters?
See SOHC4shop.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

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Offline Bodi

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Re: '78 CB750F jetting with 836 kit
« Reply #2 on: June 03, 2013, 08:12:42 PM »
There are a few carb function charts on the web, you should take a look at one. I don't have a URL at the moment.
Carbs must be absolutely clean and should be roughly synced. All intake and exhaust equipment has to be installed. Float levels must be set to spec.
It's sweet if you have a brake dyno and EGA available.
If not, you do plug chops: you need time, an open road with no speed limit or no police, and a few jet sets or enough time to wait for new sets. You start with WOT at mid high RPM: WOT at redline is an unusual condition for a street bike and you will run into carb choking issues with stock carbs... so trying to tune it there generally doesn't work best. Warm up the motor thoroughly then do a high gear roll-on for as long as you can - I think 30 seconds is minimum - without getting into the top 10% of redline rpm. Use the brakes if you need to. Shut off the kill switch, pull in the clutch, and roll to a stop. Pull the plugs and check the insulator color.
First get the mixture at WOT good: light tan plugs or just over adiabatic (slightly rich) on an ega. That is all main jet, so you can only swap the mains until it's right.
Then you mark the throttle at 1/4, 1/2, and 3/4 open.  Do a plug chop or dymo/ega run at each. If they are relatively consistent (all lean, ok, or rich) you can shim the needles if needed to get it right. If not, you will need to change (near impossible since these needles aren't stocked in different profiles) or modify the needles. Modifying isn't really hard, you just thin each needle down a bit where they are lean. You can mark where the needle enters the emulsion tube at 1/2 throttle if it's lean there for example, and then thin it down for a few mm below that mark. I use brasso or solvol on a rag with the needle in a drill press, a few seconds squeeze where it's too thick removes a few thou. A micrometer can check actual diameters for matching once you get close.
From 1/4 throttle down things get complicated: the needle, pilot jet, airscrew, and slide cutout are all involved. The cutout is not fun to modify so get the best idle and roll-on you can with what you have unless you are very handy with a milling machine for increasing the cutout... I haven't found a good way to make a smaller cutout. Tuning is easiest with the stock intake system: using pods changes the intake airflow quite a bit - and getting good tuning with pods becomes much more of a chore (there are many experienced members here that will say it is not possible, and it's definitely close to impossible).
Although counter intuitive, it's not unusual to need smaller pilot jets with overbored and better breathing engines... you may also be OK with what you have or need larger. The airscrews on most Keihin street carbs have a limited travel that actually does anything. If you've opened them over 1 3/4 turns or closed them past 3/4 turn you should probably change the pilot jet size and try again.
If you use an EGA, the mixture should be fairly rich at idle and low throttle unless you have accelerator pumps: this helps reduce stumble at low rpms. Setting it close to adiabatic will have it stalling when you try to rev from idle. Accelerator pump carbs don't have this problem as badly but I've found that the idle is better when a bit rich anyway.

You can also adjust float level to change mixture, it affects low rpm/low throttle operation more than high rpm/open throttle. I think this, like cutout mods, is pretty much a last resort.

Offline KJ790

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Re: '78 CB750F jetting with 836 kit
« Reply #3 on: June 04, 2013, 04:03:08 AM »
Thanks guys, I do have pods on it, but first thing I am going to do is put the stock airbox on and see what it does. I might try going up on the pilot jets just so that I am not out so far on the low speed mixture screws.
The most dangerous part of a motorcycle is the nut that connects the handlebars to the footpegs.

Offline KJ790

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Re: '78 CB750F jetting with 836 kit
« Reply #4 on: June 04, 2013, 07:41:24 PM »
So tonight I put the stock airbox on and took it for a spin. It is much better now, but now it is a little lean at an idle. I checked for air leaks and couldn't find any. I'm thinking I should go up a size on the pilot jets so that I am not so far out with the mixture screws. Is it possible to change the press-in style pilot jets with the carbs on the bike? I know I can get the float bowls off without removing the carbs, but is it possible to change the pilot jets like this?
The most dangerous part of a motorcycle is the nut that connects the handlebars to the footpegs.

Offline HondaMan

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Re: '78 CB750F jetting with 836 kit
« Reply #5 on: June 05, 2013, 04:54:58 PM »
So tonight I put the stock airbox on and took it for a spin. It is much better now, but now it is a little lean at an idle. I checked for air leaks and couldn't find any. I'm thinking I should go up a size on the pilot jets so that I am not so far out with the mixture screws. Is it possible to change the press-in style pilot jets with the carbs on the bike? I know I can get the float bowls off without removing the carbs, but is it possible to change the pilot jets like this?

The stock jets are fine for 836cc with the stock airbox in place. That said, the mainjet on the post-1976 bikes is a little lean at (usually) 105 size. Today's fuels burn slower, so you might try a #115 instead. If the low end is set too rich, it "feels" fine, but will foul the sparkplugs in short order, and will also fall flat when it enters the 3000 RPM range and starts to ride on the mainjet and needle settings. This is due to the spark having advanced fully by then, and it is thus expecting the idle circuit to be leaning out as the slide cutaway goes into action. If this "flatness" is too severe, you can raise the needles a notch to help blend it together.

After the engine is broken in (1000 miles), you can best set the mainjet size by taking it out on the hiway in 3rd gear and running along at 75 MPH for maybe 5 miles, then stop and check the plug colors. If they are white, go up a 10 size, if they are light tan (very light) make it a 5 size. After this step is done, you can more easily go back and blend into the idle-to-midrange performance areas. Otherwise you end up chasing your tail, because adjusting the idle and midrange before the mainjet is selected just means you have to re-adjust the idle and midrange again later. ;)
See SOHC4shop.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
Hondaman's creed: "Bikers are family. Treat them accordingly."

Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

Link to My CB750 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?adult_audience_rating=00&page=1&pageSize=10&q=my+cb750+book
Link to My CB500/CB550 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?sortBy=RELEVANCE&page=1&q=my+cb550+book&pageSize=10&adult_audience_rating=00
Link to website: https://sohc4shop.com/  (Note: no longer at www.SOHC4shop.com, moved off WWW. in 2024).

Offline KJ790

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Re: '78 CB750F jetting with 836 kit
« Reply #6 on: June 09, 2013, 12:25:33 PM »
Thanks Hondaman. Today I swapped in some 40 pilot jets and played with the mixture screws. It seems to run the smoothest with the 40 pilots and the mixture screws set at about 3/4 turns out. I still have a little pop on decel though, I think it may be an exhaust leak. I used new exhaust gaskets, but I think I might pick up some more and put them in to be sure. I checked again for air leaks on the intake side and found nothing. It idles great, and runs smooth at all rpm's and throttle positions, just pops a little while engine braking.

I have decided that I am going to install a baffle in the exhaust next week to quiet it down a little, so I am not going to bother trying anything else until I have the baffle in and new exhaust gaskets in the headers.
The most dangerous part of a motorcycle is the nut that connects the handlebars to the footpegs.

Offline KJ790

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Re: '78 CB750F jetting with 836 kit
« Reply #7 on: June 13, 2013, 09:27:51 AM »
Well I installed the baffle in the exhaust, and changed all of the exhaust crush gaskets at the head again to make sure that I do not have an exhaust leak. Played with the mixture screws and my decel pop has gotten much better, but I am out 3 turns on the mixture screws. I'm finally starting to see some color on the plugs when I do a plug chop at a small throttle opening, but it is still a little on the lean side. I may need to put in 42 pilot jets and see if I can get this thing richer. It is running great at all throttle and RPM ranges now, no studders or pops under power or while idling, but when decelerating it still pops a little. I'm keep plugging along with it until I get it right.
The most dangerous part of a motorcycle is the nut that connects the handlebars to the footpegs.

Offline 74750k4

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Re: '78 CB750F jetting with 836 kit
« Reply #8 on: June 13, 2013, 01:04:58 PM »
Working on a similar issue...  about 1000 miles on a stock 78' domed piston 61mm bore, stock 341's, hogged out airbox w/K&N, long duration cam, minor porting job, CycleX Super Flow valves. Started off with 110 mains, down to 102's now, but may need to go another step or two, to really get it in the zone. Not much popping at all on decel, but it sure likes a 2000 RPM idle. It's better now, it will kinda idle around 1600 if I just give it a very tiny nudge on the throttle every few seconds or so, otherwise, it instantly dies. These same carbs worked perfectly with my stock cam. Have not tried 38 idles yet, still at 40.