Author Topic: K8 cb750 Bronze swingarm bushing  (Read 6532 times)

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Offline Djfob

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K8 cb750 Bronze swingarm bushing
« on: June 28, 2013, 10:29:45 AM »
Ordered a set of these from vintagecb750.com.  When I removed the collar from the swingarm with OEM plastic bushings it was tight.

New bronze bushing fits tight in swingarm, collar is not when sliding into bushing and has a tiny bit of play. I'm thinking this will effect rideability and possibly wasted $50 on these bushings?
« Last Edit: June 28, 2013, 08:23:20 PM by Djfob »
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Offline markreimer

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Re: Bronze swingarm bushing
« Reply #1 on: June 28, 2013, 11:04:38 AM »
I redid my bushings last year with those same bronze bushings. I had a pair of steel bushings in my swing arm that totally marred the collar. I just replaced the collar, which wasn't very expensive if I remember correctly. After assembling, there was zero play anywhere. Perhaps your collar is toast? Are there any scratches or marring on it?

Also, while you have it out, it's a good idea to replace the grease zerks with standard American zerks if they haven't already been.

Offline Duke McDukiedook

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Re: Bronze swingarm bushing
« Reply #2 on: June 28, 2013, 11:26:00 AM »
You want zero play in the bushings, look to change the collar like mark said.
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Offline alacrity

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Re: Bronze swingarm bushing
« Reply #3 on: June 28, 2013, 11:28:36 AM »
yes, what he said.  ZERO play. You want a perfectly round collar and perfectly round bushings with just enough clearance for there to be a film of grease around the inside there. You want to be riding on the grease obv...
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Offline Bootlegger56

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Re: Bronze swingarm bushing
« Reply #4 on: June 28, 2013, 02:15:47 PM »
So being that I intend to do my K5 this winter who has the best collar prices???? 
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Offline Powderman

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Re: Bronze swingarm bushing
« Reply #5 on: June 28, 2013, 03:29:44 PM »
What is the proper procedure for installing the bushings? Freeze the bushing,heat the swing arm up? I'm thinking it might help to use the collar and the pivot bolt to make sure everything goes together in line.
I was able to buy 3 sets of bushings shipped for $52 for my CB400f swing arms, I believe they are the same bushings for some of the other arms also.

Offline Lostboy Steve

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Re: Bronze swingarm bushing
« Reply #6 on: June 28, 2013, 03:52:20 PM »
What is the proper procedure for installing the bushings? Freeze the bushing,heat the swing arm up? I'm thinking it might help to use the collar and the pivot bolt to make sure everything goes together in line.
I was able to buy 3 sets of bushings shipped for $52 for my CB400f swing arms, I believe they are the same bushings for some of the other arms also.

I freaking hope not my swingarm is so nice a powder coated, I'd hate to have to heat it or whatever.
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Offline Powderman

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Re: Bronze swingarm bushing
« Reply #7 on: June 28, 2013, 04:18:14 PM »
What is the proper procedure for installing the bushings? Freeze the bushing,heat the swing arm up? I'm thinking it might help to use the collar and the pivot bolt to make sure everything goes together in line.
I was able to buy 3 sets of bushings shipped for $52 for my CB400f swing arms, I believe they are the same bushings for some of the other arms also.



I freaking hope not my swingarm is so nice a powder coated, I'd hate to have to heat it or whatever.

The powder can be heated to up to 500*f without hurting it. If you do it in an oven and not with a torch you would e safe.

Offline Djfob

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Re: Bronze swingarm bushing
« Reply #8 on: June 28, 2013, 07:33:34 PM »
The collar seems fine without any noticeable wear but thats just to the naked eye. Fit tight in the old plastic bushings when removed. I have a 78 cb750k and collars are discontinued. Brass bushings are made in Japan so not sure if the bushings are too big or collar warn out.


Can I use prior year collars with a k8 bushing which is one piece. Earlier years had 3 piece bushings.
« Last Edit: June 28, 2013, 07:54:08 PM by Djfob »
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Offline Powderman

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Re: K8 cb750 Bronze swingarm bushing
« Reply #9 on: June 28, 2013, 08:16:49 PM »
According to the fiche all CB750 (F,K) models from 76-78 use the same collar.

Offline cb650PK

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Re: K8 cb750 Bronze swingarm bushing
« Reply #10 on: June 28, 2013, 08:20:13 PM »
The collar seems fine without any noticeable wear but thats just to the naked eye. Fit tight in the old plastic bushings when removed. I have a 78 cb750k and collars are discontinued. Brass bushings are made in Japan so not sure if the bushings are too big or collar warn out.



I had exactly the same problem on K6. I think those bushings are simply too loose.
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Offline Powderman

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Re: K8 cb750 Bronze swingarm bushing
« Reply #11 on: June 28, 2013, 08:39:55 PM »
The bushings are the same as on a CB400f, the collars are different though.

Offline Djfob

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Re: K8 cb750 Bronze swingarm bushing
« Reply #12 on: June 28, 2013, 08:41:48 PM »
The collar seems fine without any noticeable wear but thats just to the naked eye. Fit tight in the old plastic bushings when removed. I have a 78 cb750k and collars are discontinued. Brass bushings are made in Japan so not sure if the bushings are too big or collar warn out.



I had exactly the same problem on K6. I think those bushings are simply too loose.

Looks like I wasted $50, should have just went with a hondaman rebuild. Trying to save money cost me more in the end. Man I never learn. :o
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Offline Duke McDukiedook

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Re: K8 cb750 Bronze swingarm bushing
« Reply #13 on: June 28, 2013, 10:53:26 PM »
Eh, you live and you learn with certain parts and work.
I knew I had neither the tools or the expertise to do what Mark does on the swingarm rebuilds so I gladly left mine with him on a ski trip out there. Mounting and balancing tires are another thing I usually leave to others.

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Offline HondaMan

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Re: K8 cb750 Bronze swingarm bushing
« Reply #14 on: June 29, 2013, 03:39:15 PM »
I'm afraid it's become fairly complicated now, due to Honda's mistreatment of the parts situation. They also just quit making the collars, again, in March this year. This is the 3rd time they have quit them, IIRC.

So...

Here's the whole story, regardless of what the parts fiche 'says': The 750K0-K3, CB500-4, and CB550K to 1974 used the early style collar. These swingarms all have grease fittings on both ends of the big swingarm mounting bolt, which is a fancy, precision-made bolt with drilled grease passages and bearing areas on both ends near the head and threads. This mates with the collar, which has hollowed-out ID and thru-holes for the grease to reach the grease grooves, which are fed in the middle section of the bushings. This 'version' of the collar has 0.8422" OD in the bearing areas. The associated bushings are [supposed to be] 0.8430" to 0.8434" ID, and 1.0445" OD, when made in phenolic. These are not flanged bushings, but straight ones.

Trouble is, when Honda switched to making the replacement bushings of powder steel (in the 1990s sometime), they decided to use the LATER bushing dimensions, below...

The post-1973 bikes had a collar with no grease holes, and a swingarm bolt with no grease zerks. Instead, they installed one grease zerk (inaccessibly) in the center bottom of the swingarm (some of the 550F bikes are on top). The collar OD at the bearing surfaces was divided in 2 sections with a shallow groove between them: the inside bearing is 0.8440" to 0.8444" OD, and the outer half is 0.8442" to 0.8448", depending on how the technicians felt that day, I guess? The general idea here apparently was: if you apply enough pressure in the North-American-style grease zerk (about 150 PSI would do it) then the grease could force its way to at least the center groove. Then, if the grease got hot enough, it could hopefully ooze out into the phenolic (flanged) bushings, where the permeability of the phenolic would help 'pump' it along when hot, so it would become thicker after it cooled when the bike was parked awhile. The phenolic bushings became a 1-piece, no-seals, flanged design, and the cups on the ends between the collar and the frame received a dust seal instead. This phenolic bushing ID is made with a -0.0008" to -0.0012" INTERFERENCE FIT with the collar OD, for reasons never explained. The swingarm bolt was changed to be a straight, zinc-plated bolt that fits pretty loosely inside the collars: the original ones had .0020" clearance, while these 'new' ones have up to .005" looseness. Apparently, Honda didn't think this made any difference in the way the swingarm eventually cocks over toward the chain side, with riding?

In 2002, Honda quit making the post-1974 style collars, offering only the earlier ones. This adds .002" extra clearance (on average) to the spec'd .001" manufacturing tolerance. Now, in Honda's own manuals, they recommend replacing the bushings and/or collar when the clearance becomes .0032", because this number DOUBLES across 2 ends of the collar. If you then multiply this by 18" (the average distance collar-to-rear-axle), you get the side-to-side looseness at the rear wheel: (.0064" x 18) = 0.1152", or about 2.9mm (Honda's wear limit as measured at the rear wheel is 3.2mm side-to-side movement). But, if you install Honda's own bushings and the early collar, you get (.0060" x 18) = 0.108" or about 2.7mm, with brand-new parts! While meeting the "letter of the spec", it sure does NOTHING for the bike's handling.

The clearance in the finished, assembled, collar-to-bushing interface should be less than .0010" when new: Honda OEM spec was .0008" to .0012". I try to set them up on the tight[er] side, as they will wear in a little bit right at first.

Right now, I am having a machine shop make collars for me, for the 350F/400F, CB450, CB500/550, and CB750 (and first year of the CB650-4). Not cheap, but they are turning out pretty well, and fairly close to Honda's price. But, they will not work with the Honda steel bushings, nor should they (or any other collar), as even Machinery's Handbook tells anyone who wishes to be a mechanic that "similar metals must never be used as a bearing, or galling will result" (i.e., bearings must always be 2 different types of metals, like steel and bronze, or steel and phenolic). In other words, Honda has seriously made a mistake with these bushings (not IMO only, but all of industry practice agrees), and the reason for this is not clear. When a new Honda collar is installed with these bushings, it takes less than 5000 miles for them to become seriously scored, worn, and even burned, despite the best of maintenance. I estimate that 80% of the arms I get for rebuild now all have had this combination installed, and they are in terrible shape by the time I see them. Sometimes they even rust themselves together, making a solid mass that will not pivot: this then cracks the end caps and sometimes even damages the frame bolsters where the collar is trying to pivot against the frame. (And it is REAL hard to get apart!)

Strange situation?
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Offline Bootlegger56

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Re: K8 cb750 Bronze swingarm bushing
« Reply #15 on: June 29, 2013, 03:52:30 PM »
HM....my K5 has the original swing arm bolt/bushing/collar and it has two grease fittings (not zerks) one on each side.  This is the same setup that my K1 550 has.  At 26K even though I have been thorough in greasing I am starting to feel a little play in the swing arm of the K5 and have been contemplating a rebuild in the near future (winter) and you know I am a do it yourself kind of owner.  That was why I asked in an above post about a collar source.  In short....where does that leave me.
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Offline Powderman

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Re: K8 cb750 Bronze swingarm bushing
« Reply #16 on: June 29, 2013, 06:28:39 PM »
Hondaman, whats the proper procedure for installing the bushings?

Offline HondaMan

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Re: K8 cb750 Bronze swingarm bushing
« Reply #17 on: June 29, 2013, 10:27:09 PM »
Hondaman, whats the proper procedure for installing the bushings?

Well, if they are made correctly, it is: grease the holes and the bushings, insert a die that keeps the bore from shrinking at the "pushed" end, and press them in. I use a long allthread rod with some dies I made for it. Both ends of the rod have big nuts and washers for the pressing operation, just twisting it in.

Most of the aftermarket bushings I have seen have a too-large OD, expecting you to press-fit something like .002" or even more (I had a set that was .0055" larger OD once!), into a steel tube. Ain't gonna happen, at least without some bearing distortion. The bronze should be about .0010" press fit into steel.

The biggest problem with the arms today is: they are frequently tapered, or "bell-shaped" toward their outer ends. This is due to the weakness of the phenolic bushings, which let all the forces of cornering hammer on the ID of the swingarm's tube. Sometimes I wonder if Honda's steel composite bearings were supposed to strengthen their ID for this, but those powder-metal bushings go oval in just a few thousand miles, too. If that was their plan, it didn't work?

Bronze, on the other hand, once installed into a steel sleeve, becomes incredibly strong if the bearing tolerances are small. Outside that sleeve, it is fairly malleable, so the insertion process can bend it. When the fit is too tight, it smooshes the end where you are pressing it in (if you're lucky) and mushrooms the OD out, the ID in, and bends the length of it a little. Then it sticks, and looks like many of the arms I get with bronze hanging halfway out of them. Hard to get out, then! :(
See SOHC4shop.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
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Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

Link to My CB750 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?adult_audience_rating=00&page=1&pageSize=10&q=my+cb750+book
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Link to website: https://sohc4shop.com/  (Note: no longer at www.SOHC4shop.com, moved off WWW. in 2024).