Author Topic: 550 battery charging  (Read 2483 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline K_Kalynuik

  • Enthusiast
  • **
  • Posts: 147
550 battery charging
« on: October 01, 2013, 01:35:39 PM »
 Quick question. This may sound dumb but if a 1978 cb550 was running perfect, how long could you idle in traffic before the battery dies? This is hypothetical. Like say I start my bike in the morning and the voltage meter I have in my tach gauge reads 12.8 v at first start. But then as it idles the voltage amount drops slowly. I'm just curious how long I have to idle before it dies. I live downtown Toronto and the traffic keeps me from really giving the bike much throttle untill I get to the highway or to a more open road. I don't want to have to push the bike home. I've only had the bike in the city for a couple weeks and havnt had much time to test how long it will take to die around idle engine speed. Any help will be appreciated.

Regards,
Kenny
78' CB592 - http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=121580.0
1996 Ducati 900ss
1983 Kawasaki GPz750 Track bike

Offline K_Kalynuik

  • Enthusiast
  • **
  • Posts: 147
Re: 550 battery charging
« Reply #1 on: October 01, 2013, 04:28:41 PM »
Anyone?
78' CB592 - http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=121580.0
1996 Ducati 900ss
1983 Kawasaki GPz750 Track bike

Offline TwoTired

  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 21,802
Re: 550 battery charging
« Reply #2 on: October 01, 2013, 04:38:49 PM »
Are all the electricals stock?  Lighting on?

If so, the battery deficit is about 6 amps depletion mode during idle.  A 12 AH stock battery when new, ought to run 90-120 minutes before the battery voltage falls low enough to stop spark.
« Last Edit: October 01, 2013, 04:41:13 PM by TwoTired »
Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
72 500, 74 550, 75 550K, 75 550F, 76 550F, 77 550F X2, 78 550K, 77 750F X2, 78 750F, 79CX500, 85 700SC, GL1100

Those that learn from history are doomed to repeat it by those that don't learn from history.

Offline K_Kalynuik

  • Enthusiast
  • **
  • Posts: 147
Re: 550 battery charging
« Reply #3 on: October 01, 2013, 05:57:33 PM »
Hi TT. Thanks for replying to my post.

No my electricals are not stock. I was mostly interested in what stock bikes were like as mine is not and I plan on overhauling my electrical system over the winter to attempt to correct some charging issues. I wont waste your time with the details. Most of the issues are my fault. Making bad decisions.

Thanks again for the info!

Kenny
78' CB592 - http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=121580.0
1996 Ducati 900ss
1983 Kawasaki GPz750 Track bike

Offline K_Kalynuik

  • Enthusiast
  • **
  • Posts: 147
Re: 550 battery charging
« Reply #4 on: October 04, 2013, 07:53:15 PM »
Hey TwoTired, a quick question somewhat related to this topic. I read in a post from 2012 that you mentioned running a Shorai lithium Battery in your 550 for about year and was wondering if you had any negative things to say about them being used on the 550s? I am running one now and I don't believe it's being charged properly.

1978 550
-dyna ignition 5 ohm coils
-45w/55w headlight bulb on a switch
-1157 turn signal bulbs on electric relay
-motogadget 'dark' tach gauge w speedo
-combination reg/rec

I don't think I can idle for even close to the amount of time a stock setup does. Or even an acceptable length of time. I'll need to redo the electricals this winter. Maybe ditch the dyna ignition and revert back to points?
78' CB592 - http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=121580.0
1996 Ducati 900ss
1983 Kawasaki GPz750 Track bike

Offline phil71

  • Master
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,813
Re: 550 battery charging
« Reply #5 on: October 04, 2013, 09:59:17 PM »
the upgrades are not your problem. Your battery is not your problem. You need to read the factory service manual chapter about how to test that the components of the charging system are within the tolerances outlines.
Test the stator.
Test the field coil.
Test the intermediate harness for burned and dirty connections. You'd be shocked at how much resistance can build up at those connectors.
Another smart thing is to take the main output of your reg/rect and home run it to the battery terminals instead of the original harness.

Offline K_Kalynuik

  • Enthusiast
  • **
  • Posts: 147
Re: 550 battery charging
« Reply #6 on: October 05, 2013, 07:49:03 AM »
Thanks for the input phil71. I need to redo the harness this winter. It is a mess. I tested the stator and coil and seemed ok so I'm sure it's in the harness.
78' CB592 - http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=121580.0
1996 Ducati 900ss
1983 Kawasaki GPz750 Track bike

Offline TwoTired

  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 21,802
Re: 550 battery charging
« Reply #7 on: October 05, 2013, 11:56:58 AM »
Hey TwoTired, a quick question somewhat related to this topic. I read in a post from 2012 that you mentioned running a Shorai lithium Battery in your 550 for about year and was wondering if you had any negative things to say about them being used on the 550s? I am running one now and I don't believe it's being charged properly.

I didn't run the Shorai battery very long in the CB550 for fear of it being damaged from undercharging (during idle) and losing capacity.  A regulator intended for a lead acid battery doesn't meet the needs of the LiFePO4 battery.  And, there is no automatic management of dropping electrical loads when the battery is depleted.  I will only consider using that battery on a regular basis, AFTER I put a voltmeter on the bike, so that I can monitor and make the run time decision to risk battery over depletion, rev the engine, or shut the machine off to save the battery from internal damage.  The battery sees use in my RC flight box now.

If you read the instructions that came with the Shorai battery, it specifically stated to never let the voltage of the battery fall below 13.0V.  This changes the basis for the lowest system voltage the bike should see from 12.6 V to 13 V.  (Which no off the shelf motorcycle Vreg knows about.)
The Honda shop manual does reveal information about what can be expected of the CB500/550.  The electrical chapter (6) has a chart with some numbers in it.  The chart has some printing errors, but I believe the numbers are valid.  First they confused Day riding with Night riding. Night riding has lights on and therefore the higher current draw (until 1977 there was a separate lighting switch).  Second the printers omitted the minus sign in the first column listing current.  So with lights on and running at idle the basis is 12v and a 6.5 amp drain from the battery.  Note the 12V number is a full volt below what the Shorai minimum is specified and sure to damage the battery if allowed to go that low.  Such damage is not reversible.

The 13v basis also increases the power load.   You can calculate the circuit resistance by observing the voltage and current and using ohm's law.  E/I=R.  If we assume a 10A load @12 V the circuit resistance is 1.2 Ω.  Changing the voltage basis to 13v does not change the circuit resistance.  It is still 1.2Ω but at 13V, the amperage draw will be 10.8 A.    In effect the Shorai battery has placed a higher load on the alternator, due to it's requirements for survival.  Since the alternator was deficient before the battery component change, it is even moreso now.

The Cb550's 150W alternator makes only about 1/3 of full capacity at 1050 RPM.  A stock bike will draw ~120W whenever the key switch and lighting is on.  This means the battery will always deplete during idle by about 6 amps (stock bike).    I did some calculations for your bike.  A 5 ohm coil will draw 2.6A.   The stock point cam powers each coil 52% And there are two of them.  So 52% of 2.6 is 1.352A.  Two of these draw 2.7 Amps from the bike's system when using points.  The dyna-s feeds each coil power  91% of the time.  Repeating the calculations, 91% of 2.6 is 2.4 A. Two of these draw 4.8 Amps from the bike's system when using the Dyna.  The difference being an added 2.1 amps over what the stock ignition demanded.

Let's review: the stock alternator at idle provides 50-60 watts at idle.  At 12.8V that would be 3.9 to 4.7A   The new battery's minimum basis (13V) would reduce current available to 3.8 - 4.6A.  The dyna ignition increased current load by 2.1 A.   You also added a higher wattage headlight, further increasing power demand.  I'm tired of calculations, at this point.  But, I would estimate that your set up probably allows 15-30 minutes of idle time, if you begin operations with a fully charged Shorai battery.  If the Shorai is depleted, note it will take 14 hrs at or above 3000 RPM to recharge the Shorai from the bike's alternator.

The stock bike and battery will still fire the plugs when voltage falls to 10V.  The Shoria battery will go from from 13V to 10V in about 30 Seconds with any sort of load on it.  That's a function of the technology.  It holds voltage until expended, then output falls sharply.  Lead acid tech tapers off far more gradually.

I suspect that your existing Shorai battery is now damaged.  It should be charged with a proper smart charger, which will check each cell for charge state, and attempt to balance the cells for equal capacity.  It may fail this, or appear to be restored.  Then the battery should be cycled or "conditioned".  The charge cycle test will show the capacity of each cell, or curtail the test when the weakest cell reaches minimum voltage.
If the battery recovers, or is replaced,  I recommend you fit a voltmeter to the bike and monitor system voltage as you ride.  It is as important for battery survival as your engine is to oil pressure and cylinder head temperature.

All his assumes the bike's charging system is operating as normal.  Do you need my charging system checkout procedure?
Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
72 500, 74 550, 75 550K, 75 550F, 76 550F, 77 550F X2, 78 550K, 77 750F X2, 78 750F, 79CX500, 85 700SC, GL1100

Those that learn from history are doomed to repeat it by those that don't learn from history.

Offline Mooshie

  • Expert
  • ****
  • Posts: 1,042
Re: 550 battery charging
« Reply #8 on: October 05, 2013, 05:56:33 PM »
I've run a Ballistic performance motorcycle battery for over 2 years in my 1976 CB550 with no problems whatsoever.  Not the one, obviously, you are speaking about but same principle (maybe? yes? no?).  It is teeny tiny too.
1976 CB550F
Standard disclaimer: Remember I am just a girl--so be nice fellows!

Offline TwoTired

  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 21,802
Re: 550 battery charging
« Reply #9 on: October 05, 2013, 06:32:19 PM »
I've run a Ballistic performance motorcycle battery for over 2 years in my 1976 CB550 with no problems whatsoever.  Not the one, obviously, you are speaking about but same principle (maybe? yes? no?).  It is teeny tiny too.

4 cell or 8 Cell?
Have you added electrical load to the system?
What Vreg are you using?
What percentage of your run time is idling?
Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
72 500, 74 550, 75 550K, 75 550F, 76 550F, 77 550F X2, 78 550K, 77 750F X2, 78 750F, 79CX500, 85 700SC, GL1100

Those that learn from history are doomed to repeat it by those that don't learn from history.

Offline scottly

  • Global Moderator
  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *****
  • Posts: 17,561
  • Humboldt, AZ
Re: 550 battery charging
« Reply #10 on: October 05, 2013, 07:29:30 PM »
I have used a 4 cell LiFe battery for 3 relays so far. ;D  After the first relay I switched to a solid-state regulator due to the voltage spikes from the stock reg. I used a $17 unit available at any car parts store. BTW, the stock reg places a 36 ohm load on the electrical system at all times; .355 amps @ 12.8 volts is wasted as dissipated heat.
Don't fix it if it ain't broke!
Helmets save brains. Always wear one and ride like everyone is trying to kill you....

Offline Mooshie

  • Expert
  • ****
  • Posts: 1,042
Re: 550 battery charging
« Reply #11 on: October 05, 2013, 08:05:25 PM »
I've run a Ballistic performance motorcycle battery for over 2 years in my 1976 CB550 with no problems whatsoever.  Not the one, obviously, you are speaking about but same principle (maybe? yes? no?).  It is teeny tiny too.

4 cell or 8 Cell?
Have you added electrical load to the system?
What Vreg are you using?
What percentage of your run time is idling?

Hmmmm, well now you are speaking jibberish (to me anyway)

Lets see I think it is 8 cell.
I have not added any extra load to the system
Vreg (what the heck is that?) :o
Dash idles as little as possible.  He likes to be on the move! 8)
1976 CB550F
Standard disclaimer: Remember I am just a girl--so be nice fellows!

Offline scottly

  • Global Moderator
  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *****
  • Posts: 17,561
  • Humboldt, AZ
Re: 550 battery charging
« Reply #12 on: October 05, 2013, 08:21:10 PM »

Dash idles as little as possible.  He likes to be on the move! 8)
;D ;D ;D
Don't fix it if it ain't broke!
Helmets save brains. Always wear one and ride like everyone is trying to kill you....

Offline K_Kalynuik

  • Enthusiast
  • **
  • Posts: 147
Re: 550 battery charging
« Reply #13 on: October 05, 2013, 08:31:07 PM »
Thanks So much for the reply TwoTired. Epic answer as always :)

I'll start with yes I have a digital voltmeter in my gauge. That told me the battery was going below 13v in longer idle situations. I didn't want to rev it out to 3000rpm that whole time. I stuck it on the Shorai Smart charger instantly when I got home. Seems ok now but I havnt run the bike since. Having a few other issues.

I definitely don't think my charging system Is up to par so I would be great full for your charging system checkout procedure.

I usually do mostly day riding and run with my headlight off , on a switch, so something's up. I'll do the full checkup this winter.

Thanks again,
Kenny
 
78' CB592 - http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=121580.0
1996 Ducati 900ss
1983 Kawasaki GPz750 Track bike

Offline TwoTired

  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 21,802
Re: 550 battery charging
« Reply #14 on: October 05, 2013, 10:35:13 PM »
This is for an unmodified, stock SOHC4.  I haven't accounted for custom mods.

Charging system methodical verification checks, CB750, CB550, CB500, CB400, and CB350.


Begin with problem verification and characterization with recorded data.
A -- Fully charge a known good battery.  Let it rest for 2 hours, off the charger, and measure the battery voltage.  (Target is 12.6-12.8V.)
B -- Start the bike and measure the battery voltage at idle, 2000, 3000, 4000, and 5000 rpm.
C -- Repeat the measurements of B with lighting off.

The above tests identify charging system success, failure, or degree of "faulty".  The success voltages are listed in the Shop manual.

D -- Assuming the above indicates faulty, do check the RECTIFIER diodes with a diode tester or ohmmeter capable of testing diodes and uses more than .7 volts to make the test(s).
Of the twelve test made in D, six must read low ohms and six must read very high ohms.

E- assuming no faults were found in D,  Measure the white and green wires disconnected from the REGULATOR.  CB750s should 6.8 ohms - ish,  CB550s/350s/ and 400s should read 4.9 ohms- ish.

F- If there are no bullet holes or road rash/divots on the alternator case, the stator is probably good.  But, you can check for yellow to yellow continuity (.35 ohms) among all the wires, and that no yellow wire has continuity to the engine case.

G- Assuming no faults found in D, E, and F, measure the disconnected terminals of the REGULATOR.  The black and white terminals should measure zero ohms (subtract meter error if there is any).  Higher than Zero ohms, indicates internal contact contamination needing cleaning and attention per shop manual.

H - Assuming D, E, F, and G have not found faults. We can verify all the of the charging system minus the regulator is functioning correctly, by using a temporary jumper to connect the disconnected white wire (normally attached to the REGULATOR) and connecting the White directly to the the battery POS terminal.  Repeat the B and C tests.  However, if at any time the battery voltage rises above 15V, stop the test.  Such an indication would prove the charging system capable of maintaining a known good battery.  If this test never achieves 15V, then there is a wire/connector issue in either the ground path leading back to the battery NEG terminal, a wiring/ connector issue withe the rectifier RED path to the battery POS terminal, or you made a mistake in D through G.

I - (not used, can be confused with L)

J -  The only parts that remain to prove or expose are the REGULATOR (in active mode) and the electrical path between the battery POS terminal and the black wire that connects to the REGULATOR.

K - Lying to and starving the regulator
The regulator can only do its job correctly if it gets a proper voltage report of true battery voltage status.  The Vreg monitors the Black wire for this status.  Measuring the voltage lost between the Battery terminals and the Vreg connections identifies problems that are not really the charging system's fault.
Two connection paths must be checked, the Battery POS terminal to the Black wire connection at the VReg, and the Battery NEG terminal to the Green wire connection to the Vreg.  A volt meter can measure these losses directly by placing a probe between the two identified points, Black path and then the green path.  The numbers are summed and the error seen by the Vreg quantified.  Anything over .5V loss is cause for concern and anything over 1V is a certain issue to be corrected.  Each connector, terminal, fuse clip, or switch in the pathway can cause voltage reporting loss.

The regulator also passes the received voltage on to to the Alternator field coil to create a magnetic field within the alternator,  The voltage level determines the strength of the magnetic field and the maximum output capability of the alternator.  Therefore, starving  the Vreg of true battery voltage leads to reduced max output capability of the alternator.

L - regulator operation/verification.
  The Vreg sends voltage to the alternator field in response to measured voltage which is battery state of charge.  Any voltage at the battery of less than 13.5V sends full black wire voltage to the alternator's white wire.  The alternator output will vary with RPM, even if "told" to produce max power by the Vreg.  If the alternator has enough RPM to overcome system load, any excess power is routed to the battery which will raise the battery voltage (slowly if depleted and rapidly if nearly full).   When the battery reaches 14.5V, the regulator reduces the voltage to the alternator, reducing output strength and preventing battery overcharge.  If the battery exceeds 14.7V, the regulator clamps the alternator field coil power to zero (0V), effective shutting off the alternator.

Because, there is electrical load from the system, an alternator that is not producing power allows the battery to deplete and the voltage falls.  The Vreg responds by turning the alternator back on in accordance with battery state/ charge level.

The Vreg state changes can be monitored/verified by observing the battery voltage state, and the White wire to the alternator field.  (Two meters are handy for this.)  The "trip" voltages can be adjusted with the adjust screw, while changing engine RPM and electrical load that the bike presents to the battery/charging system to "make" the battery reach the voltage levels need for the set trip points.  IE. with load reduced (lighting off) and the engine above 2500 RPM, a charged battery will attain 14.5 V.  Anything above that and the adjust screw needs to be backed out to keep the battery safe from harm.
The shop manual outlines bench set up mechanical adjustments that should be performed on unknown or tampered units.  These should be resolved before final trip point adjust tuning.

Note that while the system is working, the Vreg can change states rapidly before your very eyes., changing 5 times or more while you blink.  Therefore, you may have to mentally average values measured on the White wire if your selected meter doesn't do that for you.

Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
72 500, 74 550, 75 550K, 75 550F, 76 550F, 77 550F X2, 78 550K, 77 750F X2, 78 750F, 79CX500, 85 700SC, GL1100

Those that learn from history are doomed to repeat it by those that don't learn from history.