Author Topic: running really rough, desperate need of advice--- *Problem SOLVED!!*  (Read 20415 times)

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Offline Bru-tom

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Hey all...my '76 CB550 is misbehaving still

its been a few 2 weeks since i "completed" my build and have ridden it on 3 occasions but not without teething issues.

First was an oil leak followed by rough running while in gear at low rpm (at higher rpm there is absolutely no problems)

so i fixed the leak and now its just the rich scenario.

This is what iv done so far...

-I rebuilt the carbs replacing every o-ring. the main jets, slow jets, needle and seat and emulsion tubes were cleaned thoroughly. float heights were set at 22mm with the float tab just resting on the needle without pressing the needle in. The needle jets clip position is on number two from top. the carbs were soda blasted and cleaned out thoroughly too. Bench synch'd very accurately although the bottom of my slides are not all perfectly flat, some have small wear marks making them slightly larger, but she idles perfectly, the motor is quiet and revs up very smoothly. My air screws are out close to 3 turns to lean out the very rich mix. My mate said when i blasted past him he though i had blown my motor from the rich smoke coming out the zhorst. I have also been having problems with cylinder 4 where it is missing from time to time when i cold start her after a few days, it has carbon build up and works after i clean it, so i assume there is something wrong with the 4th carb? reason i know, header 4 is cold when others are hot after a minute of idling.

my airbox is a custom one: i have tried my best to get the surface area of the opening to match the original with the space the mesh takes up. the filter material i used, if anything will let more air through than stock, so it cant be the reason for running rich? i have also removed the filter completely to see whether if it could have been restricting airflow...no change.

My exhaust is an aftermarket one, loud too, so i assume its got very little baffling.



this is what the inside looks like. ignore the rough edges, its not the final product.



My tappets are adjusted to spec, the cam chain is tensioned, I have new spark plugs, new plug caps too.

The other thing i have not really fiddled with is the ignition timing until today. Both honda and clymer manuals are not so easy to understand when it comes to point gaps.

-I basically need to rotate the crankshaft until the points for 1.4 are fully open, makes no difference where timing marks are, correct? then do the same for the 2.3? and use 0.3 or 0.4mm feeler gauge to set the gaps...
The Clymer not only says that the gauge you should use is 0.04mm, but also that when points 1.4 are fully open the index marks 1.4 must line up with fire mark? its contradicting to me... at the index mark and fire mark for either 1.4 or 2.3 the points contacts are closed....not fully open...

-after reading up a bit, TwoTired mentions that one should eliminate all lateral and vertical movements of the points plate by putting a feeler gauge between the plate and the case at one of the 3 screw mounting points, correct? this should actually be done before the point gaps are set to prevent any movements what setting ignition timing later on?

like this? The plate after the feeler gauge (red strip) will push the plate towards the other mounting points in the direction of the arrows:



once that is done, then there are different methods of setting the ignition timing, either strobe, or bulb methods? i dont want to get too far into that for now, as i have not fiddled with that part yet.


Does anyone have an idea as to what can be causing my problems? im at wits end  :-[

here are some pics of said bike:









so i ask you again, why would i get the major jerking and stumbling on acceleration at nearly no throttle until i open the throttle past say 1/4 throttle, then she flies! she sometimes kind of spits out the exhaust, like a misfire sound, can also be heard from the airbox on occasion.
« Last Edit: March 10, 2014, 12:56:36 PM by Bru-tom »

Offline flybox1

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Re: running really rough, desperate need of advice =/
« Reply #1 on: December 07, 2013, 12:01:04 PM »
Put in some clean plugs, let it idle for 2-3 minutes, and then take out the plugs.  Post a picture of their tips/insulators.
'78 750K (F3 engine) PD42b's, Modified airbox w/K&N  filter, 40/110 jets, 1 needle shim, IMS@ 1 turn out. Kerker + Cone 18" QuietCore

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Offline Bru-tom

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Re: running really rough, desperate need of advice =/
« Reply #2 on: December 07, 2013, 12:08:43 PM »
done, im going to have to order some tomorrow. thanks so much for chiming in Mr, you always seem to come to my rescue ;) my limited knowledge is getting the better of me now. Im currently running DR7EA's. My climate is relatively hot, i mean, temperatures in the day are between 64 and 86 deg fahrenheit in winter and summer respectively and anywhere between...

ps: If i were to get new jets etc, would Keyster be the brand to get? just doing research beforehand.

Offline LesterPiglet

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Re: running really rough, desperate need of advice =/
« Reply #3 on: December 07, 2013, 12:12:02 PM »
Bad reports about Keyster. Do a search on them.
'Then' and 'than' are completely different words and have completely different meanings. Same with 'of' and 'have'. Set and sit. There, their and they're. Draw and drawer. Could care less/couldn't care less. Bought/brought FFS.


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Offline Bru-tom

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Re: running really rough, desperate need of advice =/
« Reply #4 on: December 07, 2013, 12:15:34 PM »
shaaize, i would normally order from David Silver in UK, where would i get the "better stuff" from?

Offline LesterPiglet

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Re: running really rough, desperate need of advice =/
« Reply #5 on: December 07, 2013, 12:36:48 PM »
I've never had to buy jets and wonder how to know you need new ones.   :-\
I would imagine there would need to be a lot of miles on the engine to require new jets.


Edit. I forgot about your modified airbox.
'Then' and 'than' are completely different words and have completely different meanings. Same with 'of' and 'have'. Set and sit. There, their and they're. Draw and drawer. Could care less/couldn't care less. Bought/brought FFS.


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Offline Bru-tom

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Re: running really rough, desperate need of advice =/
« Reply #6 on: December 07, 2013, 12:42:37 PM »
well, i dont know...my mains were a little damaged where the spring slots into it by a PO, almost like they were trying to force remove it... it didnt look like it damaged the jet hole where the needle seats...see in pic below:


Offline LesterPiglet

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Re: running really rough, desperate need of advice =/
« Reply #7 on: December 07, 2013, 12:44:43 PM »
If it was mine I would ignore that if it fits and the inner hole isn't damaged.
'Then' and 'than' are completely different words and have completely different meanings. Same with 'of' and 'have'. Set and sit. There, their and they're. Draw and drawer. Could care less/couldn't care less. Bought/brought FFS.


Les Ross.            Certified by a Professional

Offline Bru-tom

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Re: running really rough, desperate need of advice =/
« Reply #8 on: December 07, 2013, 12:46:48 PM »
ignored ;D

Offline flybox1

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Re: running really rough, desperate need of advice =/
« Reply #9 on: December 07, 2013, 01:17:47 PM »
Why 'R' plugs?  I thought d7ea's were stock. 
What resistance are your plug caps?
'78 750K (F3 engine) PD42b's, Modified airbox w/K&N  filter, 40/110 jets, 1 needle shim, IMS@ 1 turn out. Kerker + Cone 18" QuietCore

Past Bikes
1974 550K0 (stock), 1973 CB350F (stock), 1983 Yamaha XS400K (POS)
77/78 cool 2 member #3
"Knowledge without mileage equals bullsh!t" - Henry Rollins

"This is my CB. There are many like it, but this one is mine…"

Offline Bru-tom

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Re: running really rough, desperate need of advice =/
« Reply #10 on: December 07, 2013, 01:41:38 PM »
I am using 5k plug caps, NGK XD05F. the originals are supposed to be 10k iirc. Should i try source the non R plugs to increase the spark a bit?

Offline dave500

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Re: running really rough, desperate need of advice =/
« Reply #11 on: December 07, 2013, 02:02:14 PM »
get your ignition spot on first then like flybox said check the caps resistance and use non resistor plugs,also a good bench sync no matter how good you think it is isnt good,you must vacuum sync the carbs,vacuum sync them then re check your bench type sync,itll be way off,the slides never are exactly the same height once properly vacuum synced,your adjusting and balancing the vacuum not actually making all the slides the same height,check all the jets have the same numbers stamped on them and dont appear drilled?

Offline Bru-tom

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Re: running really rough, desperate need of advice =/
« Reply #12 on: December 07, 2013, 11:15:38 PM »
will do that Dave, thanks....

i am having issues with timing though, not sure on the correct procedure as mentioned above.

i did remember that when i removed the carbs that the air screws were not all the same, but why at idle, they allow the bike to smoothly rev up and is super linear and fast?

what is causing the miss on cylinder 4? could this be the case when she splutters that she is only firing on 3 cylinders and when i open her up, she runs fine which means she is getting all the right things at the right time?

Offline LesterPiglet

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Re: running really rough, desperate need of advice =/
« Reply #13 on: December 08, 2013, 01:48:21 AM »
If you only have problems with one cylinder it isn't your points as this would affect 2 pots. Dirty carb or duff plug on that one.
Air screws will never be identical as each cylinder will have slightly different flow characteristics.
'Then' and 'than' are completely different words and have completely different meanings. Same with 'of' and 'have'. Set and sit. There, their and they're. Draw and drawer. Could care less/couldn't care less. Bought/brought FFS.


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Offline Bru-tom

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Re: running really rough, desperate need of advice =/
« Reply #14 on: December 08, 2013, 02:01:00 AM »
then how would i get the air screw properly synch'd?

i am suspecting a shot plug. I have ordered a new set of D7EA and see what they help...i cant see it being my carb, i mean, i was meticulous when it came to cleaning and reassembling them, check my build out.

could a plug really cause a splutter like that? could it be that i am using resistor spark plugs and 5k plug caps? the plugs that are in there had 50km on them
« Last Edit: December 08, 2013, 02:12:11 AM by Bru-tom »

Offline Bru-tom

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Re: running really rough, desperate need of advice =/
« Reply #15 on: December 08, 2013, 02:07:31 AM »
i set my ignition timing today, maybe not the correct method, but will see what you guys have to say...

-i turned the crank until point 1.4 had the largest gap, then i set the gap to 0.3mm.
-i turned the crank some more until the 2.3 point was at its largest, i set it to 0.3mm.
-i set my multimeter on continuity and placed one lead on ground and the other on the point 1.4. I turned the crank until it reached the F mark and rotated the points plate until the buzzer stopped ringing at just past the F mark. did the same for the 2.3.

it idles good and revs smooth, is that the correct method? I dont think my issue is with timing though..

But my question is, why the heck would my air screws be out nearly 3 turns????

Offline Bru-tom

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Re: running really rough, desperate need of advice =/
« Reply #16 on: December 08, 2013, 08:54:40 AM »
i have managed to figure out the timing procedure and its spot on for 1/4 and 2/3. I feel i have accomplished something hahaha. Need to get my hands on a dwell meter and timing light now. would like to learn about the timing thing a bit more, hope to get a better understanding.

I did find that the boots from carb to intakes were not properly tightened on 1 and 4. they were not 100% nipped up, so i reset them and tightened them properly. I am using thicker clamps so they tend to pull the rubber off the intake and carbs a bit. I am happy that they are now affixed correctly.

Could this affect the running at low throttle range? like 0 to 1/4 throttle?

i also battle to pull off from stand still, also splutter and jerks quite a bit, im assuming and hoping its a bad spark caused by carbon build up from running rich. will get new plugs in and idle for 2 mins and then remove and post pics as requested.

Still cant understand why my airscrews are out so far???

Offline dave500

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Re: running really rough, desperate need of advice =/
« Reply #17 on: December 08, 2013, 11:39:10 AM »
dont bother with trying to read the plugs,just see how it rides with the new ones in,if you do want to idle it and look at the plugs get the engine fully hot first on the old plugs then install the new ones.

Offline Bru-tom

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Re: running really rough, desperate need of advice =/
« Reply #18 on: December 08, 2013, 11:50:13 AM »
thanks mate, will do just that!

any idea as to the air screw being so far out? if its any further in its rich at idle, i know they generally need to run a little rich, but not black smoke when you rev to say 4k at idle?

Offline Deltarider

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Re: running really rough, desperate need of advice =/
« Reply #19 on: December 08, 2013, 11:50:27 AM »
I can improve the idle of my 500 by turning the airscrews 3 turns out like you did. The engine will pur like a kitten, BUT... it will not accelerate well. That's why 1 turn out is prescribed. Only then my bike picks up cleanly but (alas) idle is not as nice. All 500s and the older 550s need quite a rich idle to accelerate well.
You may want to check if the little O-rings around the mainjets seal well.
You must be able to check/set your ignition. It is number one.
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Offline dave500

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Re: running really rough, desperate need of advice =/
« Reply #20 on: December 08, 2013, 12:03:11 PM »
recheck your float heights.

Offline Bru-tom

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Re: running really rough, desperate need of advice =/
« Reply #21 on: December 08, 2013, 12:11:35 PM »
I can improve the idle of my 500 by turning the airscrews 3 turns out like you did. The engine will pur like a kitten, BUT... it will not accelerate well. That's why 1 turn out is prescribed. Only then my bike picks up cleanly but (alas) idle is not as nice. All 500s and the older 550s need quite a rich idle to accelerate well.
You may want to check if the little O-rings around the mainjets seal well.
You must be able to check/set your ignition. It is number one.

if i set mine on 1.5 turns out, the engine cuts out from over fueling. the o-rings are new, i couldnt source the correct ones from my o-ring supplier, so i went with a smaller, but stretched it over and was a tight fit in the carb, so i can assume its sealing well.

recheck your float heights.

this is how i originally set them:



at 22mm with my vernier caliper. i have had little to no leakage from the overflow as of yet. i had a sticky needle and seat the other day on one cylinder though...

My next thought is that my carbs are lower at the rear than stock due to my mounting of the airbox being a little lower, could this effect the float height enough to cause this issue?

Offline Bru-tom

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Re: running really rough, desperate need of advice =/
« Reply #22 on: December 08, 2013, 12:33:34 PM »
i am not sure the allowable tilt on these carbs, but to me, this could possible be causing this rich issue...

here is a reference line wrt the engines cooling fins:



but wouldnt it cause less fuel to get to the slow jets as they are positioned closest to the motor side of the carbs? the main jet would have more fuel to suck up though?

here is one of a standard setup, carbs float bowl parallel with fins:

« Last Edit: December 08, 2013, 01:04:21 PM by Bru-tom »

Offline LesterPiglet

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Re: running really rough, desperate need of advice =/
« Reply #23 on: December 08, 2013, 05:00:48 PM »
Correct me if I'm wrong but from memory the float pin/hinge is at the front of the carbs. The tilt on yours will lower the fuel in the bowls.
The floats will shut the valve sooner.
« Last Edit: December 08, 2013, 05:02:22 PM by LesterPiglet »
'Then' and 'than' are completely different words and have completely different meanings. Same with 'of' and 'have'. Set and sit. There, their and they're. Draw and drawer. Could care less/couldn't care less. Bought/brought FFS.


Les Ross.            Certified by a Professional

Offline Bru-tom

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Re: running really rough, desperate need of advice =/
« Reply #24 on: December 08, 2013, 08:16:00 PM »
the floats are hinged at the rear closest to the airbox, Sir..

i have also been using finger and hand gestures to try figure out what will happen with the rear lower, i may be dyslexic!  :o