Author Topic: CB550 Charging Issues  (Read 1780 times)

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Offline Texas Ty

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CB550 Charging Issues
« on: March 19, 2014, 02:36:41 PM »
Howdy,

Getting real close on my CB550 build and I've got one issue that I can't seem to get to the bottom of. I cannot for the life of me get the charging system working.

I've completely rewired the bike, loosely following the hondachopper diagram and am using a Rick's Motorsports Reg/Rec combo unit.

I have:

(From Alternator)
Yellow > Rectifier
Yellow > Rectifier
Yellow > Rectifier
Green > Frame Ground
White > Regulator

From Reg/rec:
Yellow > Alternator
Yellow > Alternator
Yellow > Alternator
Red > Solenoid
Green > Frame Ground
White > Alternator
Black > Ignition

Does any of this seem incorrect? To the best of my knowledge, this is the correct wiring setup, however I'm still not charging, and I was before the rewire. So, I've got to believe this is mechanic error.


I've heard of reg/rec units being finicky about how they are mounted, and have tried mine both rubber mounted and direct to the steel wiring box that is direct welded to the frame.


Any ideas? Hoping to be riding this mad dog around soon.

Cheers
Ty
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« Last Edit: March 19, 2014, 02:45:19 PM by Texas Ty »

Offline TwoTired

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Re: CB550 Charging Issues
« Reply #1 on: March 19, 2014, 02:48:38 PM »
Red > Solenoid

Um, which side of the solenoid?
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Offline KeithB

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Re: CB550 Charging Issues
« Reply #2 on: March 19, 2014, 03:28:14 PM »
Looking at the schematic, the RED wire that goes to one side of the "magnetic starter switch" also goes to the + battery terminal.
Is that the case with your wiring?
Nanahan Man

Offline Texas Ty

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Re: CB550 Charging Issues
« Reply #3 on: March 19, 2014, 04:08:38 PM »
TwoTired - currently it is connected to the opposite side as the positive battery connection. I'm thinking this is incorrect?

Offline TwoTired

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Re: CB550 Charging Issues
« Reply #4 on: March 19, 2014, 04:14:03 PM »
TwoTired - currently it is connected to the opposite side as the positive battery connection. I'm thinking this is incorrect?
Right you are!
The solenoid only connects the opposite post to the battery when the starter is engaged.
You need to connect the charging system (Red) to the battery in order to charge the battery.
Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
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Offline Texas Ty

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Re: CB550 Charging Issues
« Reply #5 on: March 19, 2014, 04:32:51 PM »
Heading back to the garage right now to switch it over and test. Thanks again TwoTired.

Offline Texas Ty

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Re: CB550 Charging Issues
« Reply #6 on: March 19, 2014, 05:29:58 PM »
Switched red wire to the correct side of the solenoid and still nothing surprisingly. Now I'm extra stumped.

Offline TwoTired

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Re: CB550 Charging Issues
« Reply #7 on: March 19, 2014, 09:28:32 PM »
how are you measuring?
Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
72 500, 74 550, 75 550K, 75 550F, 76 550F, 77 550F X2, 78 550K, 77 750F X2, 78 750F, 79CX500, 85 700SC, GL1100

Those that learn from history are doomed to repeat it by those that don't learn from history.

Offline Texas Ty

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Re: CB550 Charging Issues
« Reply #8 on: March 21, 2014, 11:24:04 AM »
I'm metering with a digital multimeter set to 20V, and for resistance set at 20 Ohms.


Question: The green wire (I presume Ground) coming from the alternator/field coil: where does this get connected? I assume it could be a frame ground? I've also been told it goes into the 5-pin connector from the Rectifier portion of the R/R combo, and I've also been told that it connects to the green from the regulator portion of the R/R. Needless to say I'm pretty confused.

Additionally, can the location of my main battery ground affect this? I've tried so far in two locations on the bike: 1) Under a bolt beneath the seat (Paint removed with dremel), and 2) The original location on the right side with the engine mount.

Thanks in advance.
Ty

Offline TwoTired

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Re: CB550 Charging Issues
« Reply #9 on: March 21, 2014, 12:05:22 PM »
I'm metering with a digital multimeter set to 20V, and for resistance set at 20 Ohms.
That is a good start.  But, it is only part of what is needed, as it matters a great deal where the probes are placed and whether the circuit being tested is active/passive or if components are being tested out of circuit with only the meter's power being injected for the test.

Question: The green wire (I presume Ground) coming from the alternator/field coil: where does this get connected?
Green is often referred to as ground.  But electrically, is refers to a connection to the Battery Negative terminal.
The 550 alternator connects this wire to the engine case.  The stock bike has a battery cable connected between the engine case and the frame, making these a common return path to the Battery NEG terminal.
The green wire in the alternator is only used when applying power the alternator field coil.  The field coil makes a magnetic field in the alternator, used to make power production in the stator windings.

I assume it could be a frame ground?
It is in the stock bike.  But, the green wire harness distribution buss, normally terminates at a frame connection point at a coil mounting feature.  From that point the frame carries return current to the battery NEG via the battery cable connection point at the engine frame lug.

I've also been told it goes into the 5-pin connector from the Rectifier portion of the R/R combo, and I've also been told that it connects to the green from the regulator portion of the R/R. Needless to say I'm pretty confused.
All power distribution from the battery POS terminal must also have a return path to the Battery NEG terminal.  Green wire distribution runs perform that return path duty.

Additionally, can the location of my main battery ground affect this? I've tried so far in two locations on the bike: 1) Under a bolt beneath the seat (Paint removed with dremel), and 2) The original location on the right side with the engine mount.
I would prefer point #2.  Most especially if you ever wish the starter motor to operate.

The rectifier Red and Greens are the output of the charging system.  These electrical points must have a clear and direct path to the Battery POS and NEG terminals in order to recharge the battery, and/or inject power into the electrical distribution system.

Are you avoiding Honda's wire diagrams?  Does the wiring you chose correspond to Honda color convention?
Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
72 500, 74 550, 75 550K, 75 550F, 76 550F, 77 550F X2, 78 550K, 77 750F X2, 78 750F, 79CX500, 85 700SC, GL1100

Those that learn from history are doomed to repeat it by those that don't learn from history.

Offline calj737

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Re: CB550 Charging Issues
« Reply #10 on: March 21, 2014, 01:34:26 PM »
TwoTired- you made the point (#2 ground to engine/frame) about impact to the starter motor if a ground was run to the seat pan in lieu of the stock position.

Did I understand this correctly? Can you elaborate what possible issues are created by NOT grounding (layman's verbiage) back to the stock motor/frame location.
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Offline Texas Ty

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Re: CB550 Charging Issues
« Reply #11 on: March 21, 2014, 03:43:03 PM »
TwoTired - Definitely not avoiding Honda's diagrams.

I think I've solved (but not fixed) the issue. Hooked up my old rectifier and regulator and it overcharged, the same problem I was having before. I must have incorrectly wired the R/R a few days ago and fried it. Spoke to one of their technicians and that was his suspicion as well.

Ordered a replacement regulator from Oregon Motorcycle Parts and will carry on using the stock rectifier.


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Offline TwoTired

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Re: CB550 Charging Issues
« Reply #12 on: March 21, 2014, 05:35:49 PM »
TwoTired- you made the point (#2 ground to engine/frame) about impact to the starter motor if a ground was run to the seat pan in lieu of the stock position.

Did I understand this correctly? Can you elaborate what possible issues are created by NOT grounding (layman's verbiage) back to the stock motor/frame location.

The ground currents of all the electrical devices do not rely on pathways through the frame on an individual basis.  For the 550 all the return currents pass through the frame from one point at the frame's coil mounts, to the NEG cable at motor mount point.
This does not apply to the starter motor currents.  Current routes from the Bat POS terminal, to the solenoid and then on to the starter.   The return path for the starter motor is through the engine case to the big NEG cable at the motor mount.  These pathways are all high current capable, as the starter motor can draw 100 amps or more in certain circumstances.  You definitely need 8 G wiring or better to sustain such currents without overheating the wire insulation.

What most don't consider is that any gap in an electrical path that is bridged with impure water, becomes susceptible to metal redeposition, which looks like corrosion over time.  Any incomplete or marginal welds then deteriorate over time and the amount of current the passes though bridge.

The location of wire harness ground distribution connection point on the frame and lowest resistance path to the battery NEG become important for the long term.

To clarify, there are three "ground" points to consider. 
1 - where the battery neg cable connects
2 - where the wire harness green returns connect
3 - where the starter motor or engine case connects to the battery NEG

The frame CAN be used as a return if you can identify the thickest low resistance return route between load the battery NEG terminal which goes through the least amount of welds (which may have dissimilar metals or alloys used in the join).

One particularly bad practice is routing current though the head bearings.  The triple tree metal is NOT a good ground for electrical components mounted upon it.  As those return currents would have to travel across the bearing balls or rollers, and the contact points can erode via electrical redeposition.

Electricity is the movement of ions.  Metals have lots of those, which is what makes them good electrical conductors.  Recall that electroplating is the deposition of metals from source to another surface using electricity as the agent of movement.


Is this clear enough?





Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
72 500, 74 550, 75 550K, 75 550F, 76 550F, 77 550F X2, 78 550K, 77 750F X2, 78 750F, 79CX500, 85 700SC, GL1100

Those that learn from history are doomed to repeat it by those that don't learn from history.

Offline calj737

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Re: CB550 Charging Issues
« Reply #13 on: March 21, 2014, 06:38:54 PM »
I think so. To summarize: do it the stock method for good reason. Did I get that correct?

Seriously, thanks for the explanation and reasoning. My favorite tool for working on electricity is a check book. Following your thread replies has taken some mystery out of it. Greatly appreciated-
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"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of it's victim may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated, but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." - C.S. Lewis

Offline TwoTired

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Re: CB550 Charging Issues
« Reply #14 on: March 21, 2014, 06:59:49 PM »
I think so. To summarize: do it the stock method for good reason. Did I get that correct?

The stock method has the engineering worked out for you.
Other methods can work, if you either get lucky or do the equivalent engineering as Honda.

How many Cafe rewired bikes have survived as long as the original?

Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
72 500, 74 550, 75 550K, 75 550F, 76 550F, 77 550F X2, 78 550K, 77 750F X2, 78 750F, 79CX500, 85 700SC, GL1100

Those that learn from history are doomed to repeat it by those that don't learn from history.

Offline calj737

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Re: CB550 Charging Issues
« Reply #15 on: March 21, 2014, 07:27:41 PM »
That's a bit unfair as the time since they became popular has not even got close to the lifespan of the originals. Perhaps, we should ask how many will survive for another 40 years with the wiring modifications?

To that point, I'm about to re-wire my 550 from scratch (again) but this time I'm using the MotoGadget system. The only concern I have is, 10, 20, 40 years out, how well will these products survive? What if in 10 years, they are defunct and need replacement? That would likely necessitate another replacement. Can't be certain the original products will still be available then too, but possibly more likely.
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"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of it's victim may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated, but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." - C.S. Lewis

Offline TwoTired

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Re: CB550 Charging Issues
« Reply #16 on: March 21, 2014, 08:17:30 PM »
That's a bit unfair as the time since they became popular has not even got close to the lifespan of the originals.

I would agree with you.  But, I've been told on this very forum that the Cafe craze is NOT new.  The mods began in the late 50's (the 59 club?).

I had asked the forum in an earlier thread, who had the oldest Cafe racer.  The results were underwhelming, and mostly indignant by the fadsters.

I have one, actually, a 77 made in the early 80's and abandoned by mid 80's.  Street racer, anyway.  Stripped down, aluminum wheels, pod filters, low bars, fork brace, stupid short pipe muffler (loud, no doubt), etc.  Doesn't have the now required seat hump, though.  I've mostly ignored it since the time it was given to me.  Too many projects, too little time.  At least the frame hasn't been cut up and mutilated.

Cheers,
Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
72 500, 74 550, 75 550K, 75 550F, 76 550F, 77 550F X2, 78 550K, 77 750F X2, 78 750F, 79CX500, 85 700SC, GL1100

Those that learn from history are doomed to repeat it by those that don't learn from history.

Offline calj737

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Re: CB550 Charging Issues
« Reply #17 on: March 22, 2014, 03:17:13 AM »
So thats the origin of all your wisdom! I knew there was a secret lying behind the mask of omniscience. Finally, Superman divulges his Kryptonite. The world is at peace now...

Thank you, TwoTired. You have given us mere mortals hope that we too may evolve over time!

 :) :D ;D

Hope you get some decent weather this weekend too. We are finally looking at 74 degrees today!,,,
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"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of it's victim may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated, but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." - C.S. Lewis