Topic: Do I need a new alternator?

[Anton]

Took my 550 out for her first ride a few days ago after a full rebuild this winter, just a quick 10 minute run around some residential streets to make sure everything was operating correctly. Everything seemed just fine. I even checked my battery when I got back and it read around 14V. The next day I was going to take it on a longer ride, so I went to the gas station to fill up the tank and after doing so I couldn't get it started again. I ended up pushing it home (lucklily I wasn't to far). Checked the battery again and it was down to under 10V. I did check it before I left on that second ride as well and it was fine.

I checked the resistance between the three yellow wires coming from my alternator and I was getting a reading of .13 ohms. My manual says it the reading should be .35 + 10%. I didn't have any charging issues before the rebuild and it seemed to be fine after that first ride that I had.

I am running an Antigravity 4 cell lithium battery (kick start only), ricks motorsport reg/rec.

Any not really sure what my next move should be. Can anybody help me out?

Thanks

[Anton]

Any chance that on the short trip to the station, you left the ignition/light on while fueling? With that small battery, you won't have much reserve amps stored, especially after a "short ride".

I'm surprised that your battery would read "near" 14v. Fully charged it should be 13.2v. While running, the alternator could throw up to ~14.5v at it, but only to recharge it based upon what the R/R senses as it's currently diminished state.

Using that small of a battery, I'd be certain to use the Kill switch and key OFF whenever I wasn't running the engine. And be aware, below ~2500 RPMs, she's in a deficit charge.


I've used this link successfully to identify the electrical gremlins in my bike. Without much more info from you on the diagnostics, try walking thru a few of these steps to determine your issue: http://www.electrosport.com/media/pdf/fault-finding-diagram.pdf

To be clear, this is the bike with the custom harness and the aftermarket multi-function switch? If so, be 100% certain that the battery NEG has a ground to the engine case and frame! I found this to be a culprit for some of my charging issues recently. Grind any powder coat or paint off the engine, the frame bracket, and the inside of the frame. Metal-to-metal with a solid ring terminal clamped in between.

Hey Cal, to answer some of your questions;

No I did not have the ignition/light on while fueling, and yes this is the bike with the aftermarket harness and switch. The Battery is currently grounded to the bolts that are securing the r/r, I will change this asap.

One thing i just clued in on is that the first ride I took (about 10 mins or so) I did not have the head light on. The second ride I did have the headlight on, but this was only a 2 min ride up to the gas station. Do you think the battery should be able to handle a bit more than that with the head light on?

Anyway, thanks for sharing the link, I will go through the tests when I have some time.

Cheers

[bjbuchanan]

You will get max charging after 2500 rpm so if you run it under there you are still depleting the battery. Not sure what your rpm was like but it is important to remember that, especially with a baby battery like that.

Additionally, you gotta be careful with those lithiums, tho you have probably heard plenty about that by now but they don't handle depletion like a lead acid battery does

I have attached a link for the full walkthough for charging diagnosis. If you are methodical and do it like you are supposed to it will give you an answer. I used it recently to diagnose a fried regulator(my fault after accidental hookup) in my combined reg/rect unit.

http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=112853.0

[Anton]

You will get max charging after 2500 rpm so if you run it under there you are still depleting the battery. Not sure what your rpm was like but it is important to remember that, especially with a baby battery like that.

Additionally, you gotta be careful with those lithiums, tho you have probably heard plenty about that by now but they don't handle depletion like a lead acid battery does

I have attached a link for the full walkthough for charging diagnosis. If you are methodical and do it like you are supposed to it will give you an answer. I used it recently to diagnose a fried regulator(my fault after accidental hookup) in my combined reg/rect unit.

http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=112853.0

Awesome, thanks man.

Do you guys think its worth getting rid of the 4 cell and getting an 8 cell instead? Or is there a better option for a smaller size battery I could go with?

[bjbuchanan]

I am not in to the lithium myself, my best suggestion with them is to get the bike totally sorted with a lead acid if possible and then make your switch to the lithium. Just for the fact that lead acid takes the beating of setting up the bike better if you have any troubleshooting to do.

All you really need to know is the req'd size/amp rating of the system minus starter. I don't know it for our bikes but I know that it can be found using that left hand google search bar.

[Anton]

Any chance that on the short trip to the station, you left the ignition/light on while fueling? With that small battery, you won't have much reserve amps stored, especially after a "short ride".

I'm surprised that your battery would read "near" 14v. Fully charged it should be 13.2v. While running, the alternator could throw up to ~14.5v at it, but only to recharge it based upon what the R/R senses as it's currently diminished state.

Using that small of a battery, I'd be certain to use the Kill switch and key OFF whenever I wasn't running the engine. And be aware, below ~2500 RPMs, she's in a deficit charge.

I've used this link successfully to identify the electrical gremlins in my bike. Without much more info from you on the diagnostics, try walking thru a few of these steps to determine your issue: http://www.electrosport.com/media/pdf/fault-finding-diagram.pdf

To be clear, this is the bike with the custom harness and the aftermarket multi-function switch? If so, be 100% certain that the battery NEG has a ground to the engine case and frame! I found this to be a culprit for some of my charging issues recently. Grind any powder coat or paint off the engine, the frame bracket, and the inside of the frame. Metal-to-metal with a solid ring terminal clamped in between.

Hey Cal, just wondering if the tests from the link you posted are to be done with headlight on or off?

[bryanj]

Lithium batteries need a far better regulated charge than you can get out of these old SOHC and it could be that running that type of battery has done something to the Reg/Rec as the electronic ones need a "stable" battery and excellent connections

[Anton]

Anton - many of those tests don't even account for the drain of the system, only the specific proper function of the components. So, headlight or not, doesn't matter.

A couple things I learned (from TT honestly who helped me enormously offline) is that your battery NEG must have the proper ground. Your bike may work doing it differently, but it will work best and most reliably when you reinstall it to the upper rear, right motor hangar and between the frame and engine case. Bare metal contacts all the way from engine to inside of frame (both sides of the hangar ground to metal too).

Regarding the Li-ion: I use the Shorai. I'm wicked happy with it. Mine is a 14Ah unit and in a small package to boot. True, they have a preference for their charger, but I've experienced nothing but high reliability and re-charge capabilities with it.

If I were to "bet" in your current problem, I'd seek to diagnose the Reg/Rec wiring and connections. I have the same unit as you, and until I provided it with proper grounds, proper wiring from the stator, and to a stable 12v switched sensed feed, I could not get the proper charging voltage.

Understand this: (my explanation from what I interpreted from TT) the battery provides a charge to start and to run the bike when the drain is greater than the charging system (alternator/stator) are producing at a given moment. Once producing the proper charge, the alternator will not only feed the engines electrical requirements (including the accessories) but will also send back to the battery as much voltage as allowed by the R/R. It is the function of the R/R to request and limit that voltage to the capacity of the battery. Too much voltage, and you'll fry your battery in an instant. Too little voltage requested, and you won't get a re-charge while riding.

So in your case, battery needs to be properly grounded to provide and receive current. Stator/alternator must be producing a charge proportional to the RPMs. (Run the engine and record the voltage seen at the battery at 2, 3, 4 and 5k RPMs). Record those. And lastly, your R/R must limit that voltage to safe ranges and begin requesting it from the alternator as soon as it notices the battery being depleted.

On your custom harness, places to verify good, proper connections are:
- Left side, as wires exit alternator, make sure those bullet connectors are clean, and tight. Might have to pop off the left side cover to verify.
- left side again, where the factory flat white plug coming from stator plugs into the R/R. This where you should have your yellows, white and green on the "engine" side. (post a picture of that)
- R/R wiring and grounding. The R/R needs a really good ground too! Not just under a nut to the frame
- And of course, the battery.

You asked about 4 cell or 8 cell. Depends entirely upon what devices you're running, and the rev-range you're running at. If mostly in town riding, with lights and blinkers, and aftermarket ignition and coils, better step up to 8 cell. If mostly stock ignition, and limited lighting, then 4 cell can get you by, by 8 would be better until you ride in more prolonged situations with higher rev-ranges.

I fully expect, as was my case, it's going to come down to a very simple correction. Go step-by-step to isolate the problem. It's pretty damn easy with TT helping in the wings.

Hey Cal,

I fianally got to go work on my bike today after about a week. I followed the "fault finding flow chart for charging seystems" that you sent me. According to the chart the bikes charging system is fine. Voltage reads higher than 13.5V at 2500 rpms and lower than 14.8 at 5000 rpms.

Here are the readings I got ;

2500 rpm - 13.05V
3000 rpm - 13.05V
4000 rpm - 13.07V
5000 rpm - 13.09V

I popped off the left side engine cover and the connections seem fine, I ground off the powder coat on the frame behind the upper right engine hanger bracket and have grounded the battery there. Just wondering if its ok to ground the r/r to the NEG battery terminal? Dont really know where else i could ground it too.

Man I hope this solves the problem, It seems like when the bike is running with the headlight on, it is losing about .01V/second

[Anton]

here is the photo of the alternator plug

[Bodi]

I'm not sure what float voltage your battery wants, but 13V is too low for a fully charged lead acid battery. I suggest jumpering the field coil power wire directly to battery + and seeing if you get a higher voltage, this tells you if the regulator is what's keeping the voltage down. A normal regulator should not be limiting system voltage to 13V. If you really want 13V for your lithium battery and have added an adjustable regulator set to this, no problem.
If, even with the field coil jumpered, a fully charged lead acid battery, and revs above 3000 or so, you only get 13V: there's a problem in the harness (especially check the connections under the engine covers!) or your electrical load is just too much for the alternator. The usual cause of this is a higher wattage headlight and a higher drain electronic ignition (the basic Dyna draws more than stock).

[scottly]

Lithium likes more like 14.4 volts; even after sitting for a year, mine read 13.8+.

[Anton]

Could I join my r/r ground to my NEG battery ground wire so I can use the same ring terminal for proper grounding? I just havnt seen 18ga ring terminals that are big enough to fit around th engine hanger bolts.

[Anton]

So that actually made it worse somehow. I'm now reading 12.97 from 2000 to 5000 rmp after grounding them all together 

[Anton]

Thanks for all your replies fellas, I really appreciate it. I've got zero time to continue to try to diagnose this one, Iv brought the bike to a shop down the street. Only have a few months left of decent riding weather  . I will post what the problem was when I find out.

Thanks again!

[Anton]

hey guys, so its been about a month since I last posted on this thread and still have had no success sorting out this charging issue that I'm having. My Mechanic gave my bike back a few days after I brought it to him saying that his boss had a break down or something about not wanting to work on these old CB's with charging issues anymore unless a $1200 deposit was giving for all new charging components + labour ...or something like that, didn't really fully understand.

Anyway he gave me some advice and sent me on my way, haven't had anytime to really put any real effort into solving this. The end of summer is closing in on us really fast over here in the Pacific NorthWest and I'm feeling a little desperate, I really want to get this thing on the road, it hurts me everytime i stand beside her, helpless not knowing what to do  . Boo hoo right! I'm really hoping for some guidance from you guys.

Cal, I think you were on to something there before I bailed and took her to the mechanic.

Here are some updates,

New battery - AMG, got rid of the tiny lithium ion.
Ground off some powder coat in a few spots hidden under the tank to get some better grounds.
Found NOS  field and stator coils and rotor (installled today except rotor, didn't make any difference)

So, with bike running I'm reading 12.4 v at the battery from 2000  to 5000rpm.

I followed the chart again that Cal had posted http://www.electrosport.com/media/pdf/fault-finding-diagram.pdf .
 
Here's where Iam confused, I have 5 DIFFERENT colour wires coming from R/R which sends me to "D"

which says to unplug the alternator and take a Resistance reading between the two "spare wires" aside from the three yellow wires. My alternator connection consists of three yellow, one blue/red (oil switch), one green/red (neutral switch), and then a white and green from the field coil. So I took a Resistance reading between green and white and got no reading. I get a reading of 1.6 ohms between all three yellow wires.

That's as far as I got and as far as I know how to go, hopefully someone can help me out??

Thanks for reading if you made it this far

cheers,

Oh here's a photo of what I'm working on..

[Anton]

Anton - a couple of things to look at:

Remind me again, other than the custom harness, and multi function left hand switch, the rest of the your components is stock, right? Dyna ignition and coils if I recall correctly? But no other aftermarket changes?

If you have accurately tested your alternator with the troubleshooting diagram, and the resistance and voltage out put is correct, and your battery (with motor off) has a full 13.2v or higher, then your problem has to be oriented to the R/R.

Let's agree: the alternator puts out voltage, more than the battery can absorb. The battery stores voltage and dispenses it to the engine while running. The alternator re-charges the battery while the motor is running, provided the RPMs is high enough to create enough voltage output from the alternator,

It is the function of the r/r to limit the amount of voltage sent to the battery, and to insure that enough voltage does actually get sent to it. Hence the "regulation" and "rectification". In order for the r/r to do this, it must have proper wiring to the alternator (should be okay there as you're using the "stock" plugs, and it must have a path to the 12v switched power line. I think this might be part of your problem.

If I recall, recently you installed a relay between the multi switch and the ignition. If you are running the factory key switch, you should have 4 wires coming from it: red, black, brown, and Brn/Wht.  Red is direct to 12v, brown and Brn/Wht are for the accessory lighting. The black is the target for us. It should only have 12v registering when the key is "on" position.

So run a little test with your meter.  Verify that the black gets 12v only with key, then trace that to the relay you installed. Which wire there is "switched" to hot with the key? Whatever wire coming from the relay and heading to the ignition circuit, is the wire you need for the next step.

The r/r plugs into the alternator output (white plastic 6 wire block connector). At the r/r, there should be a red, green and black wire coming from the r/r. Red goes to battery + (mine uses an inline fuse) the green is to frame ground, and the black wire is the "sensing" wire. Let's focus on this one.

The r/r black wire must monitor the battery's condition of depletion and charge state to instruct the r/r to manage the output of the alternator; "I need more or less voltage please". If this black wire is not properly tied to the switched 12v wire from your key switch/ignition circuit, then you will never get proper charging voltage at the battery.

When you got worse readings by moving the green r/r lead to the frame ground, that tells me that either the sensing wire is wrong or the ground is crap. Or both those things. But this is where you need to focus your diagnosis. Of course, all of this is my opinion, and I'm doing this remotely and somewhat blind, but based upon all I know and recall about your bike, it's the only logical explanation.

If I've missed something or drawn the wrong conclusions about your installation, let me know. If you have any means to either sketch up a wiring diagram for what you think you have, or some more pictures, that could help too. But I'm putting money on the sensing wiring and the relay being out of sorts to the r/r black wire.

I will follow this direction tomorrow

[scottly]

So I took a Resistance reading between green and white and got no reading.

That should be about 5 ohms, plus meter error. You have an open circuit in the field coil wiring somewhere.

[Spanner 1]

Wait now fellas.... before spending more money  , let's double-check that field coil reading. As Scottly says, it must read close to 5ohms or no charging. Set your meter on it's lowest 'ohm' option and try again between White and Green, ( both wires disconnected from the R/R ). If still no reading then it's time to remove the stator cover and examine the bullet connectors under it. Often that's the problem. If the field coil tests good without checking the hidden connectors I would suggest doing a test on the rectifier portion of the R/R. One blown ( open circuit ) diode of the 6 in the rect. would shut-off 1/3 of the stators output = low charging voltage. Do a search here for testing rectifiers....

[Anton]

wow, do I just have terrible luck or do these things commonly fail? This is crazy.. I will go test again today

[Anton]

Respectfully, I think your testing methodology is flawed. Or you're missing a step?

Quite possibly Cal, I'm going purely on what I'm reading, with hardly any knowledge on the matter at all.

Step one - set Multi-meter to lowest ohms setting?

Step two - touch one of the multimeter leads to green wire, touch other multimeter lead to white wire?

step three - look at multimeter screen?

I know the multimeter is working because when I check resistance between the three yellow wires coming from the stator i am getting a reading

[Anton]

Just did some more testing. Original Stator and Field Coil are testing fine, around 5 ohms and the field coil. With the field coil connected directly to the battery and the bike running, with the alternator unplugged, all three yellow wires are reading over 50V at 5000rpm.

So following the electrosport diagram it brings me to the RR testing, this is where I got a little confused, dont know if im doing the test correctly.

I have the RR (rick's motorsport not stock) disconected and the multimeter set for Diode test. Red lead to red wire and black to each of the yellow wires. I do not get any reading.
The electro-sport chart is asking if above 1.5V or below 1.

If I then switch the black lead to red and red to yellow it reads  460  on two of the yellow and 476 on the other.
the chart is asking if around 0.5v or lower than 0.2v and above 1v.

Something doesnt seem right

[scottly]

 the multimeter set for Diode test. Red lead to red wire and black to each of the yellow wires. I do not get any reading.

If I then switch the black lead to red and red to yellow it reads  460  on two of the yellow and 476 on the other.

This is a correct reading for a diode test. It is actually .460, but some cheap meters omit the decimal point.
Let's get back to the field coil. Can you now measure 5 ohms from the white wire where it connects to the regulator and ground (solid green wire or metal part on motor like a screw head)?

[Anton]

 the multimeter set for Diode test. Red lead to red wire and black to each of the yellow wires. I do not get any reading.

If I then switch the black lead to red and red to yellow it reads  460  on two of the yellow and 476 on the other.

Hey scottly,

The field coil is reading 4.4 ohms between the green and white wires and the gang plug.
This is a correct reading for a diode test. It is actually .460, but some cheap meters omit the decimal point.
Let's get back to the field coil. Can you now measure 5 ohms from the white wire where it connects to the regulator and ground (solid green wire or metal part on motor like a screw head)?

[Anton]

Anton - a couple of things to look at:

Remind me again, other than the custom harness, and multi function left hand switch, the rest of the your components is stock, right? Dyna ignition and coils if I recall correctly? But no other aftermarket changes?

If you have accurately tested your alternator with the troubleshooting diagram, and the resistance and voltage out put is correct, and your battery (with motor off) has a full 13.2v or higher, then your problem has to be oriented to the R/R.

Let's agree: the alternator puts out voltage, more than the battery can absorb. The battery stores voltage and dispenses it to the engine while running. The alternator re-charges the battery while the motor is running, provided the RPMs is high enough to create enough voltage output from the alternator,

It is the function of the r/r to limit the amount of voltage sent to the battery, and to insure that enough voltage does actually get sent to it. Hence the "regulation" and "rectification". In order for the r/r to do this, it must have proper wiring to the alternator (should be okay there as you're using the "stock" plugs, and it must have a path to the 12v switched power line. I think this might be part of your problem.

If I recall, recently you installed a relay between the multi switch and the ignition. If you are running the factory key switch, you should have 4 wires coming from it: red, black, brown, and Brn/Wht.  Red is direct to 12v, brown and Brn/Wht are for the accessory lighting. The black is the target for us. It should only have 12v registering when the key is "on" position.

So run a little test with your meter.  Verify that the black gets 12v only with key, then trace that to the relay you installed. Which wire there is "switched" to hot with the key? Whatever wire coming from the relay and heading to the ignition circuit, is the wire you need for the next step.

The r/r plugs into the alternator output (white plastic 6 wire block connector). At the r/r, there should be a red, green and black wire coming from the r/r. Red goes to battery + (mine uses an inline fuse) the green is to frame ground, and the black wire is the "sensing" wire. Let's focus on this one.

The r/r black wire must monitor the battery's condition of depletion and charge state to instruct the r/r to manage the output of the alternator; "I need more or less voltage please". If this black wire is not properly tied to the switched 12v wire from your key switch/ignition circuit, then you will never get proper charging voltage at the battery.

When you got worse readings by moving the green r/r lead to the frame ground, that tells me that either the sensing wire is wrong or the ground is crap. Or both those things. But this is where you need to focus your diagnosis. Of course, all of this is my opinion, and I'm doing this remotely and somewhat blind, but based upon all I know and recall about your bike, it's the only logical explanation.

If I've missed something or drawn the wrong conclusions about your installation, let me know. If you have any means to either sketch up a wiring diagram for what you think you have, or some more pictures, that could help too. But I'm putting money on the sensing wiring and the relay being out of sorts to the r/r black wire.

Hey Cal,

So the black is getting 12v only when key stitched to "ON". Two of the wires coming from the relay get 12V with key switched on and left hand control switch at bottom postion (if you remember i believe you said it was the same left hand control that you have). These two wires are spliced together  tied into the black power wire from the main harness. The other two wires at the relay only get 12v when the left hand control is switched to next postion up, which are the blue/wht from left hand control (kill switch main) and the other goes to coils. The bike will only start at this position.

Now following that black wire that gets the 12v when key is switched on and left hand control switched to bottom position (off position) from the relay, it brings me to the back of the harness to a connection that includes two thin black "power" wires, One thick black wire from the ignition switch and the black wire to r/r.

I believe that all my grounds are now good, iv scraped off powder coat to ground too

hope this makes things a little more clear

[Anton]

Everything sounds perfect there. Any resolution on your alternator/field coils?

Yea, it turns out my testing was off. the new ones and original are testing fine. is it possible that even though the r/r is testing fine through the diodes test that it could still be failing?