Author Topic: 4th gear slipping to neutral  (Read 3864 times)

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Offline rockthehellout

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4th gear slipping to neutral
« on: June 08, 2015, 02:45:55 PM »
I've been searching for quite some time and can't seem to find a topic with the same symptoms. After a recent top end rebuild on my 76 750k, where the motor sat for two and a half weeks, my clutch has been slipping out of 4th, and 4th only, around 1800-2000 RPM's. I naively added 20w50 synthetic oil for about 150 miles worth of riding after the rebuild. I'm curious to know if that WAS indeed the problem, will I be able to work out the synthetic over time with another oil change or two? I've put another 100 or so miles on it with SAE 20w50, but still having the same problem.

Or does this have nothing to do with the oil at all at this point, and should I start looking elsewhere?

Offline flybox1

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Re: 4th gear slipping to neutral
« Reply #1 on: June 08, 2015, 02:51:53 PM »
the M2/3 gear shifts ---> towards the clutch side to mate with the M4 dogs.
If it doesnt slide enough, it can slip out under load.

« Last Edit: June 08, 2015, 02:53:39 PM by flybox1 »
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Offline rockthehellout

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Re: 4th gear slipping to neutral
« Reply #2 on: June 08, 2015, 02:56:15 PM »
the M2/3 gear shifts ---> towards the clutch side to mate with the M4 dogs.
If it doesnt slide enough, it can slip out under load.



Is there a repair or just a replace?

Offline flybox1

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Re: 4th gear slipping to neutral
« Reply #3 on: June 08, 2015, 03:00:33 PM »
others might chime in, but if the dogs on 2/3 are worn round, its a replace item.  cyclex has undercut
You didnt do anything to the bottom end when the engine was out besides synthetic oil??
'78 750K (F3 engine) PD42b's, Modified airbox w/K&N  filter, 40/110 jets, 1 needle shim, IMS@ 1 turn out. Kerker + Cone 18" QuietCore

Past Bikes
1974 550K0 (stock), 1973 CB350F (stock), 1983 Yamaha XS400K (POS)
77/78 cool 2 member #3
"Knowledge without mileage equals bullsh!t" - Henry Rollins

"This is my CB. There are many like it, but this one is mine…"

Offline rockthehellout

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Re: 4th gear slipping to neutral
« Reply #4 on: June 08, 2015, 03:45:35 PM »
others might chime in, but if the dogs on 2/3 are worn round, its a replace item.  cyclex has undercut
You didnt do anything to the bottom end when the engine was out besides synthetic oil??


Not a damn thing.

Offline HondaMan

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Re: 4th gear slipping to neutral
« Reply #5 on: June 08, 2015, 06:45:05 PM »
When you say, "...the clutch is slipping out..." do yo mean it jumps out of gear (like Neutral?), or does it just start slipping like the clutch is bad, and then grabs if you let up on the throttle a little bit?

Reason I ask: in that clutch there is one special cork plates that has bigger tabs on the outside ends, and it is usually found on the top of the stack, first under the pressure plate. This is the plate that wears the most in the "F" bike. If it is worn to the limit, it will slip under power in the higher gears, and 3rd and 4th usually have the highest torque load under nominal riding. The synthetic oil, if you oil is not a "low detergent" type, makes the foaming worse, which helps induce the slip. The fix is to replace that plate: it is the type that has slanted-cut corks on the face of it.

If your oil is not the "motorcycle oil" made expressly for these kinds of bikes, the synthetic acts like a super-suds agent. If the oil is a mineral-based type or a diesel-rated synthetic, it will have low detergent qualities and your bike (and gearbox) will hug you for it...
:)
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Offline rockthehellout

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Re: 4th gear slipping to neutral
« Reply #6 on: June 08, 2015, 10:02:14 PM »
When you say, "...the clutch is slipping out..." do yo mean it jumps out of gear (like Neutral?), or does it just start slipping like the clutch is bad, and then grabs if you let up on the throttle a little bit?

Reason I ask: in that clutch there is one special cork plates that has bigger tabs on the outside ends, and it is usually found on the top of the stack, first under the pressure plate. This is the plate that wears the most in the "F" bike. If it is worn to the limit, it will slip under power in the higher gears, and 3rd and 4th usually have the highest torque load under nominal riding. The synthetic oil, if you oil is not a "low detergent" type, makes the foaming worse, which helps induce the slip. The fix is to replace that plate: it is the type that has slanted-cut corks on the face of it.

If your oil is not the "motorcycle oil" made expressly for these kinds of bikes, the synthetic acts like a super-suds agent. If the oil is a mineral-based type or a diesel-rated synthetic, it will have low detergent qualities and your bike (and gearbox) will hug you for it...
:)

Thanks as always hondaman! Is the plate issue the same in the K as the F?

And to answer your question, it's slipping to neutral, or more like a false neutral. After it disengages, up takes me to 5th, down to 3rd (once or twice back to 4th.) But, I wondered the same thing you're getting at. So tonight I took the bike out and if info from 1/4 throttle to WOT in 4th, it holds. On deceleration it will hold until the 2,000ish RPM range, and then slip out. Not sure if this changes your diagnosis  ???

Offline ekpent

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Re: 4th gear slipping to neutral
« Reply #7 on: June 09, 2015, 05:16:49 AM »
Sure sounds like it may be the classic 2nd and or 4th gear worn dog/fork syndrome.Did you do rings and a hone also on the top end rebuild?  If so synthetic oil is not recommended for proper break in.

Offline PeWe

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Re: 4th gear slipping to neutral
« Reply #8 on: June 09, 2015, 10:42:04 AM »
Thanks as always hondaman! Is the plate issue the same in the K as the F?

My CB750 K6-76 has that kind of clutch too. I use std fibers with HD springs.
Missing 4:th to an extra neutral is std on my CB750. Can happen when not getting the gear fully in or mistake during heavy acceleartion and the foot touch the gear pedal...
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Offline Bailgang

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Re: 4th gear slipping to neutral
« Reply #9 on: June 10, 2015, 02:53:15 PM »
I had issue with my F2 popping out of 4th but it only did it when under load and or accelerating hard so I don't know if this applies to you. The problem turned out to be bent shift forks, I took care of that and it shifts like a dream now and doesn't pop out of 4th or any other gear for that matter anymore.
Scott


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Offline HondaMan

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Re: 4th gear slipping to neutral
« Reply #10 on: August 01, 2015, 08:43:26 PM »
When you say, "...the clutch is slipping out..." do yo mean it jumps out of gear (like Neutral?), or does it just start slipping like the clutch is bad, and then grabs if you let up on the throttle a little bit?

Reason I ask: in that clutch there is one special cork plates that has bigger tabs on the outside ends, and it is usually found on the top of the stack, first under the pressure plate. This is the plate that wears the most in the "F" bike. If it is worn to the limit, it will slip under power in the higher gears, and 3rd and 4th usually have the highest torque load under nominal riding. The synthetic oil, if you oil is not a "low detergent" type, makes the foaming worse, which helps induce the slip. The fix is to replace that plate: it is the type that has slanted-cut corks on the face of it.

If your oil is not the "motorcycle oil" made expressly for these kinds of bikes, the synthetic acts like a super-suds agent. If the oil is a mineral-based type or a diesel-rated synthetic, it will have low detergent qualities and your bike (and gearbox) will hug you for it...
:)

Thanks as always hondaman! Is the plate issue the same in the K as the F?

And to answer your question, it's slipping to neutral, or more like a false neutral. After it disengages, up takes me to 5th, down to 3rd (once or twice back to 4th.) But, I wondered the same thing you're getting at. So tonight I took the bike out and if info from 1/4 throttle to WOT in 4th, it holds. On deceleration it will hold until the 2,000ish RPM range, and then slip out. Not sure if this changes your diagnosis  ???

There's a possibility here of the forks or gear dogs being worn, or the gearshift drum "lid" being loose. The extra power afforded by your recent rebuild may now be nudging the torque just higher enough that it now lets it pop out of gear, if the gears were barely engaging before. The mainshaft twists quite a lot on these bikes, especially in the upper gears under heavy throttle. This makes it shorter across the width of the engine: if it is barely engaging 4th and it starts to loosen up, then the dogs on the gears jump apart.

The shift drum has a round disc on the top of it that holds some pins firmly against the shift drum body. On the K4 and later bikes, Honda did not always peen the screw in the center of this disc, and it can unscrew a bit, especially if the bike ever fell on the gearshifter. This can let the pins be loose, and the gears that suffer most from partial shifts then are 3 and 4. It doesn't turn all the way to that gear if those pins are loose, during a shift. That's one possibility.

Another one is: if someone replaced the clutch (ahead of you owning it) and installed the cup washer that holds the clutch basket to the mainshaft backward (hollow side out, instead of toward the engine), then after a while the dogs wear on the 4th gear (and sometimes 3rd), letting it jump out of gear under power.

Those are the 3 main things I've seen that can cause it?

See SOHC4shop.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
Hondaman's creed: "Bikers are family. Treat them accordingly."

Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

Link to My CB750 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?adult_audience_rating=00&page=1&pageSize=10&q=my+cb750+book
Link to My CB500/CB550 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?sortBy=RELEVANCE&page=1&q=my+cb550+book&pageSize=10&adult_audience_rating=00
Link to website: https://sohc4shop.com/  (Note: no longer at www.SOHC4shop.com, moved off WWW. in 2024).