Topic: Because I love debate... and I am bored

[nickjtc]

Isn't it interesting that mankind is split into people who want to know the answer to stuff, and who then do whatever it takes to reinforce their belief (whatever it may be), and people for whom the whole question is irrelevant. I'm not sure that the answer to 'life, the universe and everything' will ever be found. Yes, I know it's 42, but that is another story. And frankly I couldn't care less.

However I do care when people around me try to tell me that they know the answers for sure, just because, and then belittle everything else because it does not fit into their belief structure. I say, "Who cares?". What difference does it make to our existence on this Earth? Apart from making a person happier or more comfortable within their shell I cannot see a purpose to asking the question of "Why?" or "How?". Personally I've got more important (to me) things to do in life, such as producing two fine sons and making sure that they have the same way in life that I did.

When I went to school we had an assembly every morning, during which we sang a hymn and said the Lords Prayer. Why did we do it? Because it was a way of unifying the school at the start of each day. Did it offend my sensibilities (or my parents) because I am not a Christian? Absolutely not.

And this whole business about 'teaching' evolution or creation.....what's to be taught, and who cares? We never had either subject 'taught' when I was at school and frankly I don't feel that I missed out. We were left to make our own choices if there was a necessity to solidify a particular 'belief'.

Sorry for the ramble; just had a no show for a driver exam.

[ofreen]

I'm not sure that the answer to 'life, the universe and everything' will ever be found. Yes, I know it's 42, but that is another story. And frankly I couldn't care less......  I say, "Who cares?". What difference does it make to our existence on this Earth? Apart from making a person happier or more comfortable within their shell I cannot see a purpose to asking the question of "Why?" or "How?".

I can understand how you might think that way, because the argument over what seems to be the unknowable can get tiresome for some people.  But the inclination to ask 'Why" and to not be satisfied with not knowing is just human nature and is the reason we aren't still living under deadfalls and eatin grubs out of rotting stumps.

[cmorgan47]

having caught up....i'll chime in...why not, i'm bored with a bit of a buzz.

first off, to the people looking for religion to answer how the world came to be, i offer a paraphrase from one of the smartest men to ever grace this planet.

~"if your god is a god of the how, you have an ever diminishing god.  if you have a god of the why, you have an ever expanding god"~   --joseph campbell.

i find this to be of the most brilliant and succinct statements on the topic ever.  science will continue to explain the cosmology of our universe better than any of the religions ever could've hoped to, but science will always fail on why it is this way as that's out of scope for science.  it is within the scope of philosophy.  looking to religion to explain the beginnings of the world is no less ignorant--in the actual meaning of the word--than the greeks assuming that the gods carried the sun across the sky each day.


obviously species adapt.  we can watch it happen as we speak.  it's the reason viruses are now immune to the antibiotics that killed them instantly less than a generation ago.  when compared to early man, we are taller, more upright, less sloped heads, shorter intestinal tracts, etc....  species adapt.  sometimes, they evolve.  there's evidence of this as well.  look at the german kid born with arguably super-human muscle development.  is this random chance?  is there a salient difference between random chance and evolution?  at what point does adaptation become evolution?  we've seen fish develop lungs and become amphibious?  is that adaptation or evolution?

i think the problem here is we tend to think of ourselves as the be-all end-all of evolution rather than yet another step within a long chain.  we're too tied up in it to see it happen.

finally, i ask those of you tied to the christian creation story, what makes your story more valid than any of the other religions.


all this being said, i have no answers and anyone who says they do is a charlatan at best.

[edit]
seriously, ofreen, nothing?

[Rocking-M]

Ok, I'm way behind in this debate. But, here's some more of my 2 cents.

As stated in my first post, whatever you believe you believe by faith.

If it's evolution you do so with out the links to our current status.
You merely believe those links existed at some time in the past,
even though no fossil record supports your belief. You accept by faith
the tenants taught by men of science that this is the reason you
are what you are today. Futher, you see natural selection and by faith assume that
this must support evolutionary theory. You see similarities in design between differing
species and assume that this supports evolution.

If I accept biblical creation, the big bang, God spoke and bang here we are,
then I accept it by faith. My faith based on scripture which through prophecy has
always proved itself without error. Some have questioned the legitimacy of
the claims of Christ. However, if one takes the time to study the old testament
prophecies of Christ it will be seen that He was the living fulfillment of those
predictions. To the letter I might add and this even though he was
rejected by those who were the keepers of the prophecies, the Jews.
(They had their own ideas of the time line to be followed in the prophetic
fulfillments and Christ did not come as an earthly king at the time they felt he should,
that prophecy is yet to be fulfilled). So, I look at the prophetic fulfilments embodied
in the God/man Christ and accept by faith that which is beyond my abilities to prove.
So when I see natural selection I see, just that, God given natural selection and this
is simply the ability of God's creatures to adapt to the environment they are placed
in by God. I see similarities between species and say, well, there should be similarities
as all were created by God.

Which brings me to, should these theories be taught in School?
Since both are faith based (and I'm only dealing with 2 thought there may be more theories I am sure),
perhaps they should not.

If we accept it as the law that there is to be separation of
"Church and State". However, I think the Constitution was and is clear on this
too! The general government should not be deciding what is acceptable on the State level and
for that reason could not pass a law that a national religion be created. However that never meant
that on the local level the people could not decide on what they thought best. So the separation
clause has been a created clause that was added in by the General Government and contrary
to the strict interpretation of the constitution.

Therefore, I come back to what Mr. Jefferson said, let each compete on a level
playing field and in the end truth will win over error.

Having written the above I will tell y'all this.

Given that my beliefs in the ability of truth to compete were not allowed
in public schools neither of my sons ever attended a day of public/government school.
Both were home schooled throughout their educational experience.

[Raul CB750K1]

I'm catholic because I was raised as such. I didn't choose my religion, but I could have rejected it as many people I know since I was a kid. The good thing about catholicism is that you can be the biggest criminal in the world, that if you repent and take religion in your deathbed you are good to go!!!! Wich other religion can beat that?  HAHAHAHA  Now seriously, if we can't give answers today, with everything we have learned from discoveries, what kind of answers could give the people who wrote the Bible? I understand it's an interpretation and you can't deny the evolution theory just because it was not mentioned in the Bible. I believe in the existence of a greater being because I can't believe everything under the Sun would exist without something creating it, just by pure coincidence. I believe there is something after life, I don't believe in the "switch off" theory because then life would have no meaning. Reincarnation? No, I don't think so, but I believe souls meet after death, and I'm dying -not literally- to see again my grandma whom I lost when I was 8, and a bigger brother I never knew.

Even if there is nothing after death, death will be interesting because at the end we will know the biggest question in the World: Does God exist or not? Science doesn't believe in the existence of souls because it cannot be measured or detected, so if our souls transcend it means the souls have been created by something above science. And if nothing happens, then it's OK, too late. People doesn't die as long as they are remembered, so just try to do the right thing so people will remember you. After almost 30 year I still remember my grandma.

In the end, we are just a toy in God's hand. He created everything, set up some rules and is watching how it works. If he doesn't like, he will probably change the rules and start over again. As somebody has said, we are so arrogant to believe we are the final step, but evolution has just started...


Raul

[ofreen]

[edit]
seriously, ofreen, nothing?

Huh?

[crazypj]

I'm catholic because I was raised as such. I didn't choose my religion, but I could have rejected it as many people I know since I was a kid. The good thing about catholicism is that you can be the biggest criminal in the world, that if you repent and take religion in your deathbed you are good to go!!!! Wich other religion can beat that?  HAHAHAHA

Didnt Emo do a joke about that, praying for stuff doesnt work so steal it and ask forgiveness?
PJ

[aptech77]

#$%* it...... this got boring after page 5!

[mrbreeze]

Well E Brandon.....Wadda ya think?  You got quite a few members to run a half page ad about what their idea of life is about .No arguements....just opinions.... What you think of the results

[Rsnip988]

I think that was a pretty good debate as Mr Breeze said no petty arguements just different points of view


RKS

[Bob Wessner]

I think that was a pretty good debate as Mr Breeze said no petty arguments just different points of view


RKS

I agree, particularly considering the topic and the kind of exchanges and behaviours it can elicit in the rest of civilization.

[Rsnip988]

who knew "bikers" were so distinguished and insightful?


with the exception of
"

#$%* it...... this got boring after page 5!

"

which kinda screws up the rest of the philosophical thread.


RKS

[mrbreeze]

Oh....so wrong my "DICK"!!!....that is an opinion....just like everybody else's opinion!!! (LMFAOTICSS!!!!! ) Take a pill Grasshopper!!!!!!.....you will soon learn.........

[Rsnip988]

I think I have driven MrBreeze insane because that last post made no sense


RKS

[GeoffT]

Insert Quote
I think I have driven MrBreeze insane because that last post made no sense

I think I got it , appart from

LMFAOTICSS!!!!!

Maybe I shouldn't ask 

[Rushoid]

LMFAOTICSS!!!!!

Trying to figure this one out... Laughing My F**king Ass Off 'Til I Can't See Straight? Did I win? 

[Rsnip988]

that sounds good to me Rushoid


RKS

[Ebrandon]

I think the thread went better than i had dared hope. Obviously we are not going to fid the answer to the "ultimate question" but reading different view points is great exercise for the mind.

Thank you everyone that contributed and especially for keeping it civil :

I was up lte last night and got to see the episode of south park you guys were talking about. Pretty ff. Now i have to get back to the mind numbing remaining 6 hours of my work day. 

[Chris Schneiter]

I BELIEVE in Darwin, who's actions were pre-ordained by the Speghetti Monster, with the WORD spread by PIRATES.

[crazypj]

Science channel has run a return to Galapogos islands documentary last night. Darwin didnt go far enough with his theory, and it took him 25 yrs to decide on evolution, debate still ongoing Intelligent design could have come up with a better idea than putting the pleasure garden next to the sewage works
 Evolution anyone?
PJ

[cafehonda]

Go out in your yard, look around.....

All that #$%* happened once.. Just once... by total chance huh? 

Actually, with all due respect of the opinions of others, it didn't all just happen by total chance. It happened over hundreds of millions of years, in hundreds of billions of places, in hundreds of trillions of places. If faith makes one feel good, by all means, feel good. But everything you see around you is the end result of nature finding a way without regard to outcome. Success is rewarded until conditions change and then mutation wins and it becomes the new standard, until conditions change.....One thing that most people fail to consider or don't get is that this state of existence is just one of many possible outcomes. Only those states which have the lowest amount of entropy can produce an ordered rational being such as an oak tree. Likewise, in a state that can produce an oak tree, the possibility for somewhat more complicated organisms also exists. The fact that one or more of these relatively more complicated organisms can think about their own existence is proof of nothing more than the anthropic principal. Based on prevailing evidence, evolution seems to be the most likely answer to "Why are we here?" God, again based on the prevailing, available and peer reviewable evidence, seems much less likely an answer. However, in closing, I would just like to offer this: I in no way wish to judge anyone based on their willingness to believe. A mans got to believe in something, I believe I need a drink. Toke and poke and tell a joke, peace out.

[Roach Carver]

248

[cafehonda]

248

cheater!

[Rocking-M]

Science channel has run a return to Galapogos islands documentary last night. Darwin didnt go far enough with his theory, and it took him 25 yrs to decide on evolution, debate still ongoing Intelligent design could have come up with a better idea than putting the pleasure garden next to the sewage works
 Evolution anyone?
PJ

Might be why Darwin rejected the new relegion of evolution that folks created from his observations and theories on "Natural Selection".
Reject it he did too!

[ic455]

Let's be clear here, folks:  Neither Religion nor Science have the answer for everything.

There's no scientific proof that a God exists, there is also no proof of any kind that science is any greater than the human minds which hold so tightly to it. 

IMHO, Religion is something made up by folks a long time ago to justify the human race.  Also IMHO, science is the same damn thing.  Who's to say that our great scientific discoveries aren't just a bunch of bull#$%*?  Who can prove otherwise?  Our world, our existence, is not just black and white. 

Just ask yourself this simple question:  If humans hadn't "discovered" atoms, or protons, or electrons, would they exist? 

Mankind wants to justify its existence, but I don't think it can be done.