Author Topic: CB750 Race bike rims and tires  (Read 6942 times)

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Offline Kickstart

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CB750 Race bike rims and tires
« on: February 22, 2016, 06:58:11 AM »
I've done a few searches and it appears it's only a cosmetic difference between the shouldered and standard aluminum rims.

I'm upgrading my 750 race bike to aluminum rims (also doing the GL1000 front end swap) and was planning on getting the standard excel aluminum dimpled rims.  I like the look better and they're a little cheaper than the shouldered version.

Before I pull the trigger, I was hoping to confirm there's no performance difference between the two rims. 

Looking for feedback from those of you who have experience or knowledge in this area.

Thanks,
Chris
« Last Edit: June 21, 2017, 11:27:16 AM by Kickstart »
- Chris
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Offline FunJimmy

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Re: Excel rims - shouldered or standard for racing?
« Reply #1 on: February 22, 2016, 07:26:48 AM »
You might think the shouldered rim is more rigid than the standard but would it be noticeable if true?
There will always be a level of resilience with any spoke wheel so the sutulties between the two rim cross sections might be moot. Shouldered rims trap and hold more soil so I wouldn't select them if your track preference is rally.  :)
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Offline 754

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Re: Excel rims - shouldered or standard for racing?
« Reply #2 on: February 22, 2016, 10:56:42 AM »
Run what you like..as lng as they are lighter than what you had... Huge difference in looks..
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Offline bwaller

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Re: Excel rims - shouldered or standard for racing?
« Reply #3 on: February 22, 2016, 02:53:39 PM »
I'm showing my age but it used to be said shouldered rims were stronger. Probably this dates back to British bike days when choices were limited, not sure. I'm also not sure it makes a particle of difference today, if you're unlucky enough to damage an alloy rim it likely won't matter what type you have. I do use shouldered rims, partly because of the above, partly because I think they look the biz.  ;D

You might also consider MT vs. WM rim profiles.

Offline Kickstart

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Re: Excel rims - shouldered or standard for racing?
« Reply #4 on: February 22, 2016, 06:50:58 PM »
Thanks for the all the feedback.

Intuitively, it would seem the shouldered rims would be more rigid but by how much, and would the difference be noticeable... as you and FunJimmy mentioned.
I actually asked someone at Buchanan Spokes about the difference and the answer I got was "just cosmetic", but I have trouble believing it.

Am I going to kicking myself for saving $80 on two wheels if I find the non-shouldered flex during hard braking/corning?... or is it to ridiculous to suggest it would be that significant?   I remember seeing one bike at the track with the non-shoulder rims, so I have seen others use them... but not necessarily on a 750.

I was going to get a used GL1000 front rim, but they're not much cheaper on ebay and I figure they could potentially be damaged so not worth the risk.
- Chris
75' CB750F Orange flake (rider)
75' CB750F Blue (Project)
75' CB750F Painted black (Project)
No Reserve Racing #171 AHRMA

Offline 754

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Re: Excel rims - shouldered or standard for racing?
« Reply #5 on: February 22, 2016, 07:49:00 PM »
 All the manufacturers of OEM went to non shouldered... do you think its a racing secret that everyone forgot about ? or fad or personal preference... or favored by builders trying to make it look more 60,s or 70,s ?
Maker of the WELDLESS 750 Frame Kit
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Lost quite a few CB 750's along the way

Offline seanbarney41

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Re: Excel rims - shouldered or standard for racing?
« Reply #6 on: February 22, 2016, 07:50:17 PM »
shouldered is probably heavier
If it works good, it looks good...

Offline FunJimmy

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Re: Excel rims - shouldered or standard for racing?
« Reply #7 on: February 22, 2016, 09:50:36 PM »
Am I going to kicking myself for saving $80 on two wheels if I find the non-shouldered flex during hard braking/corning?... or is it to ridiculous to suggest it would be that significant?   I remember seeing one bike at the track with the non-shoulder rims, so I have seen others use them... but not necessarily on a 750.

My alloy rims are non-shoulder and they're rock solid at any speed and any braking situation.
I'm not riding a 750 but I do chase my 750 friends around and my bike has some pretty solid stoppers. You won't be disappointed.
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Offline turboguzzi

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Re: Excel rims - shouldered or standard for racing?
« Reply #8 on: February 23, 2016, 03:50:30 PM »
yes, it is ridiculous to suggest it would be that significan :)

look at the lean angles supermoto racers do on non-shouldered rims and you ll understnad why....

Offline Kickstart

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Re: Excel rims - shouldered or standard for racing?
« Reply #9 on: February 23, 2016, 07:29:24 PM »
Thanks guys!

Thanks for humoring me on, in hindsight, what was a pretty obvious answer.  I just wanted to be absolutely sure before I pulled the trigger on $400 for rims. 

This racing business gets expensive ;)

 Chris

- Chris
75' CB750F Orange flake (rider)
75' CB750F Blue (Project)
75' CB750F Painted black (Project)
No Reserve Racing #171 AHRMA

Offline bwaller

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Re: Excel rims - shouldered or standard for racing?
« Reply #10 on: February 23, 2016, 07:44:02 PM »
+1  ???

Offline gschuld

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Re: Excel rims - shouldered or standard for racing?
« Reply #11 on: February 24, 2016, 04:00:24 AM »
Chris,

I apologize for the thread drift, but it seems your question has been answered.  Can you tell us about your racing plans?  Class and events you are hoping to race in this year?

I noticed you are looking for factory exhaust to convert to racing pipes, so Novice Heavyweight Production in AHRMA?  I recall you trying it last year, how did it go?  Early cb750f model right?  Went to NJ and Barber, others?

I'm planning on doing some racing myself, so I'm curious.  I'm also on the Jersey coast, not too far from you. ;)

George
« Last Edit: February 24, 2016, 04:15:26 AM by gschuld »

Offline Kickstart

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Re: Excel rims - shouldered or standard for racing?
« Reply #12 on: February 24, 2016, 07:28:18 AM »
Chris,

I apologize for the thread drift, but it seems your question has been answered.  Can you tell us about your racing plans?  Class and events you are hoping to race in this year?

I noticed you are looking for factory exhaust to convert to racing pipes, so Novice Heavyweight Production in AHRMA?  I recall you trying it last year, how did it go?  Early cb750f model right?  Went to NJ and Barber, others?

I'm planning on doing some racing myself, so I'm curious.  I'm also on the Jersey coast, not too far from you. ;)

George

I'm really glad to hear this... we need more CB750's at the track! 

I've been meaning to start a thread on how to prep a CB750 for road racing - I figure I can share my experiences as a total novice to roadracing and what I learned along the way.

To answer your questions:

I was in the Novice Heavyweight Production class for the last two (2.5?) years and I'm planning to try my luck at the Sportsman 750 class this year.  AHRMA modified the Sportsman 750 class rules (on a probationary period) to allow four cylinder bikes.

I really liked the Novice Heavyweight class, except the turn-out is so low.  Last year at NJ there was only two of us in the Saturday race and I was the only one in the Sunday race.  So, easy podium finishes :)  but it's much more fun to be dueling it out with other racers.  At Grattan and Barber there were usually between 4 to 6 of us in the class.

Last year I did Grattan (no longer on the circuit this year - replaced with Gingerman), NJ Motorsports Park, NJ Motorsports Park with USCRA (on the Lightning track), and then Barber.  When I raced with USCRA I believe I raced with Period II heavyweight.

This year I'm planning on doing at least Road America (never been there before), NJ with AHRMA, and Barber.  I may try to do Gingerman before Road America if I can figure out how to pull off the logistics (and costs) of a weeK+ trip.  I'm not sure if I'll do NJ with USCRA this year.  It's a good final prep before heading down to Barber, but it's expensive for the amount of track time you get.  Instead, I might do some track day weekends with Tony's Track Days up in the northeast.  I really like that group and they're vintage bike friendly/tolerant.


Exhaust - my current race bike is actually my 75' CB750F street bike that's been slowly modified. I'm working on getting everything converted to a CB750K2 I have.  I could run my F exhaust (stock 4-into-1 with the muffler replaced with an aftermarket megaphone), but the collector on the header scrapes on hard right hand turns/leans.  I'm not excited about the aftermarket options for our bikes, so I figured I'd start with a stock 4-into-4 exhaust.  I think eventually I'm going to end up with a custom 4-into-4 exhaust (possibly a CR750 reproduction/imitation)... but that's money I don't feel like spending just yet.

I'm having a blast... in fact I think it's become an addiction :)

You should definitely jump in.  The NJ track isn't too far from you and it's a great track (Thunderbolt).  That's where I took the class and did my first races (actually first time I was ever on a track).  My bike was bone stock except tires, tapered bearing upgrade in the neck, Ikon shocks, and some aftermarket swingarm bushings I installed (that were actually binding a little!)  Engine was never opened or worked on since it left the factory, and I pushed her pretty hard in the straights.

We're actually in a pretty good location for roadracing, and I'm surprised there's not more of us in the area doing it:
 - AHRMA comes to NJ and their event's in the midwest aren't too far of a hike.
 - USCRA comes to NJ as well, and their main events in Loudon are only 6 hours away for us.
 - And... VRRA up in Canada isn't all that far either, in fact they're closer than Road America.  I'm hoping to get up to race with them eventually.  I hear their Vintage Festival at the Canadian Tire Motorsports park is pretty awesome.

Oh boy, this turned into a long response... couldn't help myself, I really caught the racing bug :)

Feel free to ask any questions. 

- Chris



- Chris
75' CB750F Orange flake (rider)
75' CB750F Blue (Project)
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Offline Old Scrambler

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Re: Excel rims - shouldered or standard for racing?
« Reply #13 on: February 24, 2016, 08:11:36 AM »
Chris.........I live about 12 miles away from Road America. I have a few parts you may be interested in. Early GL1000 front wheel with twin rotors.......a 4-1 header.......BUT FIRST I suggest you invest in a set of RACE-TECH emulators for your forks. Then decide about rim and tire sizes.

I have a spare bed for wayward racers...........let me know. Bring all of your sprockets and chain-gear............R.A. has long straights. If you need rear sprockets, I have a few with less than 48-teeth.
Dennis in Wisconsin
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Offline bwaller

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Re: Excel rims - shouldered or standard for racing?
« Reply #14 on: February 24, 2016, 09:32:31 AM »
Good luck with your season Chris. It would be great to see you at our CTMP (Mosport) this year.

Be aware that next year (2017) will be the 50th reunion of the 1967 Canadian GP and will coincide with our VRRA four day weekend. That will be a must if you're a motorcycle race fan. We're expecting some big names and some historic bikes.

Sorry to get off course (no pun intended  ;D)

Offline gschuld

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Re: Excel rims - shouldered or standard for racing?
« Reply #15 on: February 24, 2016, 10:26:49 AM »
Chris,

That's great.  I'd be really interested in your potential race prep for the novice thread.  I'm hoping to do a few races this year as well.  USCRA, AHRMA, and VRRA.  Heavyweight Supervintage in USCRA.

George

Offline seanbarney41

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Re: Excel rims - shouldered or standard for racing?
« Reply #16 on: February 24, 2016, 02:16:18 PM »
Chris
    What's the story with no Grattan on the AHRMA scedule?  Gingerman is an ok track, but no where near the calibre, history, or ambience of Grattan.  Its fun to go to Grattan 'cuz it seems like it is one of the most challenging and popular tracks and some of the vintage semi-famous folks show up.  Can't say for sure, but I don't expect as much of that to happen at Gingerman.
If it works good, it looks good...

Offline gschuld

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Re: Excel rims - shouldered or standard for racing?
« Reply #17 on: February 24, 2016, 03:23:00 PM »
Chris,

That's great.  Like Brent said, I would put Mosport on your calender this year if at all possible.  I went last year and it was a blast.  I will definitely be returning this year, with some luck I will be qualified to race this time.  The track is fantastic...  went around by bicycle twice.  Lots of elevation changes, in all the right places. 

I think I can kick our Saturday dinner plans up another notch or two ;)  Maybe I'll need seating for a few more this time.

Barber must have been fun.  I'd like to go sometime.

George

Offline Kickstart

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Re: Excel rims - shouldered or standard for racing?
« Reply #18 on: February 25, 2016, 07:44:23 PM »
Chris
    What's the story with no Grattan on the AHRMA scedule?  Gingerman is an ok track, but no where near the calibre, history, or ambience of Grattan.  Its fun to go to Grattan 'cuz it seems like it is one of the most challenging and popular tracks and some of the vintage semi-famous folks show up.  Can't say for sure, but I don't expect as much of that to happen at Gingerman.

I know, it's somewhat of a downer.  It was a very challenging track, and it was also a great track for spectators as there were a couple of vantage points where you could see large sections of the course.

I don't know the official reason, but I suspect (and have heard others say) that it was due to the poor maintenance of the track itself.  The one thing Gingerman has over Grattan is a freshly paved track, so I suspect that factored into the decision.  Grattan was also treacherous in the rain last year.  Those dark black patch areas became really slick. 

A fair amount of people didn't race in the Sunday race last year  because of the conditions (was it just because of the rai r because the track is known for being slick in the rain... I don't know).  I do know there were puddles in the chicane and water running over the track in turn one.  It stopped raining on Sunday for my race (and dried up a little), but I remember my rear tire slipping out a little went went over one of the two streams of water in turn one while trying to make a pass.  Oh, and now that I think about it, there was a puddle right where my preferred line was through the last turn into the straight. I took it all as a challenge, but I think AHRMA may be worried about member turn-out due to the deteriorating track conditions. 
- Chris
75' CB750F Orange flake (rider)
75' CB750F Blue (Project)
75' CB750F Painted black (Project)
No Reserve Racing #171 AHRMA

Offline bwaller

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Re: Excel rims - shouldered or standard for racing?
« Reply #19 on: February 25, 2016, 07:59:39 PM »
It's very likely the case, but too bad about Grattan. Hopefully someone gets the message and the money for repairs can be found. I keep telling our comp. coordinator, we must never settle for poor track conditions. We're racing, not out there smelling the flowers, we deserve the best track conditions we can get.

Offline Kickstart

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Re: Excel rims - shouldered or standard for racing?
« Reply #20 on: February 25, 2016, 08:07:16 PM »
Yeah, hopefully things will improve and we'll be back there.

I'll definitely try to see if we can fit Mosport in this year.

Old Scrambler... thanks for the offers!  I've got the emulators and springs on order from Racetech, and I've already sent off a GL1000 rotor to Godffrey for thinning and drilling. I've got a spare 75 CB750F front hub that I'm planning on using with the GL1000 forks and axle I purchased on eBay.

I haven't ordered the Excel rims just yet, as I'm debating if I want to stick with stock rim sizes or not.  I don't think it's possible to get race compound tires for the stock rims (or if it is you have to mix brands/types on the front and rear).  Per the rules I can go up to a 2.15" rim in the front and a 2.5" in the rear... minimum rim diameter of 18".  So I'm debating what I want to do.

I know there was a guy in NJ last year racing a CB750 (maybe a late K model?) who went with an 18" front rim (and I assume slightly wider rims - 2.15 in the front and 2.5 in the rear) - he was running Avon's race compound AM22 in the front and an AM23 in the rear (which I do believe are designed to work together).  I'm assuming he was running 110/80-18 in the front and Avon's special "cantilever" "130/650VB18" in the rear (which is designed to fit narrower rims than a 130 would typically fit).  Is that a modification worth doing, and what else is required suspension wise to make that work?  I wonder if it would completely change the nature/attitude of the bike.

I've been running Avon AM26 street compound since I started and have been very happy with them... but I'm thinking if I'm investing a lot of money in new rims it might be a good time to step up to race compound tires.
- Chris
75' CB750F Orange flake (rider)
75' CB750F Blue (Project)
75' CB750F Painted black (Project)
No Reserve Racing #171 AHRMA

Offline Retro Rocket

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Re: Excel rims - shouldered or standard for racing?
« Reply #21 on: February 26, 2016, 01:07:52 AM »
I'm not certain on this but i think a 110 is a bit big on a 2.15 front, I had a 110 on my GSXR with a 2.75 x 18 front rim and that was the recommended size, I've seen 110's on 2.5 inch front rims but 100/80 or 100/90 would be big enough on a 2.15 inch front rim... ;)
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Offline bwaller

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Re: Excel rims - shouldered or standard for racing?
« Reply #22 on: February 26, 2016, 04:28:40 AM »
Those are the rim size/tire selections I run with. Plus, one of the fastest CB750's I know does as well. When I started my process the 2:15 front/2.5 rear seemed to satisfy all the rule books. Originally I used Avon AM20 then AM26 soft front race tires in 90/90/18 to help with turn in. However on a 750 this is too narrow and I made geometry changes then switched to the 110/80 AM22 front.

Avon makes claims these AM22/AM23 are designed to work together. I agree it is a great combination and no issues with the above rim selection. Avon has a chart showing this.

Offline simon#42

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Re: Excel rims - shouldered or standard for racing?
« Reply #23 on: February 26, 2016, 10:39:49 AM »
2.15 is a bit narrow for a 110 tyre as retro said a 2.75 is what avon recomend . i used a 2.5 which was a sort of compromise , unfortunatly they dont make a 100 am22 . the rear will be fine on a narrow rim but it is not a tyre that i liked at all . the sidewall is very stiff and i could only get one to grip for about half a dozen laps and that was on a 250
people keep mentioning the race tec emulators , is there no one over your side that makes a proper cartridge conversion for older forks ?

Offline bwaller

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Re: Excel rims - shouldered or standard for racing?
« Reply #24 on: February 26, 2016, 11:53:59 AM »
Beg to differ. For their AM22 110 tire, Avon recommends a 2.5 but lists 2:15 to 3". Not sure why they didn't work for you Simon. Considering the alternatives we have available, I consider this the best option.

Before I switched to the AM22 front I was in contact with an Avon rep in the UK several times and he always recommended the AM22/AM23 combination with these rims. He gave me good pretty good advice when asked.