Topic: Quality of gas

[Deltarider]

Am I reading your post correctly in that the Dutch AA claims that having ethanol in the gas increases the gas mileage by 1,5%?

ANWB (the Dutch AA) states about newcomer E10:
'Consumption is rising slightly. The energy content of ethanol is just a little lower and the engine thereby also needs just some more of it. Research shows that consumption increased by 1.5%. The amount of that rate also depends on the condition of the engine and the driving style and conditions.'
Now I don't know if it was compared to ethanolfree or to the already existing E5. BTW, motorists can go to a site and check if their specific vehicle can cope with E10 or not.
They also deliberately did a test with a car* that they knew of - informed by the importer of Opel - it was not fit for E10. The first few thousands of kilometers looked promising, but after 27.000 km the high pressure fuel pomp was destroyed causing an even dangerous situation.
For hibernation I prefer to keep all carb O-rings wet. Say every 2 months I drain the bowls (fuel goes back in the tank). Then I turn the throttle stop screw so that the slides are down. With nothing but air in the bowls and the slides down I kick the engine a couple of times and hope that in particular the slow jets will be cleared. I return the throttle stop screw to it's original position and finally I let the carb bowls refill by opening the petcock for a minute. Worked for me.
Now that I'm not sure anymore if BP's Ultimate and Shell V-Power are still ethanolfree (they used to) I might ad something like Stabil for the coming winter. It will be the first time I'll do this.
*Opel Signum 2003 with a direct injected 2.2 liter engine.

[pjlogue]

Thanks for the clarification Deltarider.  Keeping the rubber wet and changing over the fuel in the bowls sounds like a good plan.  I hadn't thought about the O rings and seals in the carbs drying out.

-P.

[Retro Rocket]

 I live in a very hot humid place near the ocean, and for the very reasons you state, ethanol fuel carries a warning not to be used as a marine fuel, there are warnings on the gas pumps everywhere not to use E10 in boat engines because it "absorbs moisture"

BP, Shell and Caltex all advise boat owners not to use ethanol mix fuels in boats. They say that is mostly because ethanol has a dramatically shorter life, especially in a marine environment.
To reduce moisture accumulation, tanks must be kept full so there is less space for condensation. On the other hand, ethanol blends should be kept for no longer than two weeks.

So which is it? Because it absorbs moisture or because it has a short shelf life?

Both, Its quite clear,  "especially in a marine environment", It absorbs moisture from the environment causing it to separate faster than normal....  I live on the coast in a high humidity environment, boating is the number 1 pastime, my Father managed a boat company for over 20 years, I grew up on the water and have worked as a professional fisherman, moisture is the number one enemy in the marine environment, in both petrol and diesel fuels, the problem increased with the use of ethanol in marine fuels. Most of summer here is between 70 and 90+% humidity, even in our very mild winters humidity is high, 3 major oil companies state this warning and place it on their pumps, I'm sure they know what they are recommending...?

[Retro Rocket]

Great post, nothing like some facts to dispel the "myths" in this thread.

It's true that alcohol in itself is hydroscopic but the myth is that your fuel goes on and on contracting water in an alarming pace. That's the myth. The point is that it is very unlikely that your fuel ever reaches that saturation level where it becomes a problem. That's why (to fight a spreading, unnecessary panic) I said it will not be a problem if you ride regularly. There are millions and millions of riders that proof that. Aral proofed that in a tank that has had nothing but non-ethanol fuel you'll find in fact more water at the bottom of the tank than those filled with ethanol fuel. And that unbinded water can be poblem. As said above, I prefer non ethanol fuel but if I have to tank E5 or E10, when I have no choice, it's not giving me sleepless nights. Not at all. For hibernation however I want to have non ethanol fuel in my tank or ad a stabilizer. As far as fuelpumps etc, yes, there could be a risk, mainly motors manufactured before 2006/2007 as far as the European market is concerned. We have some documented cases of expensive parts that broke. How our rubber seals react, frankly I still don't know. What I do know is all mine are still OK and they have seen plenty ethanol fuel. Sorry for not joining the hype but give some nuance in this matter.

I live in a very hot humid place near the ocean, and for the very reasons you state, ethanol fuel carries a warning not to be used as a marine fuel, there are warnings on the gas pumps everywhere not to use E10 in boat engines because it "absorbs moisture".... 

I'm a yachtsman myself and I'm aware of this, but the warning is there not because of all that neighbouring moisture in the ocean, but it has to do  with the practice that boats sometimes are left unattended and are not used in months.

And just for the record, unleaded fuel is as bad or worse for pollution and the environment than the old leaded fuels..

And just for the record, and just for the record, don't make us laugh, there are plenty of records that have calculated the damage done to children brains in their development. You don't have to look far, I'm afraid. But really... speaking of myths in this thread.

The warnings here not to use ethanol in boats comes from  3 major oil companies , Its the moisture {humidity} in the air being absorbed by the ethanol thats making the fuel separate faster. The heat is one of the main factors, you don't have that where you are, the expansion and shrinking of the fuel tanks, more air comes and goes through the breather systems in the tanks, bringing moist air which increases the rate at which the fuel ingests moisture.

Actually yes, there is plenty of factual evidence of the effects that lead has on children's developing brains, nowhere did I dispute that, my home state has a massive lead mine {Mt Isa}, I'm quite aware of the problems with lead exposure and its effects on developing brains. My point was,  Benzine and other aromatics {Xylene and Toluene and other aromatics}  now used prolifically in  Unleaded fuels, have on people with relatively small exposure are experiencing, the benzine {a known carcinogen} in fuel is now being directly credited to rising rates of Leukemia and other cancers, especially in motor mechanics, mainly blood and bone related cancers although this category is expanding. Catalytic converters don't work until they reach 400 degrees, so all the pollutants they are "supposed" to remove, benzine, dioxins and lots more, are spewed into the air until the converter reaches that temp, usually while you are either near or in the vehicle, even after going through the converter, unleaded fuel exhaust is deadly, more so than the old leaded fuels.

[Bailgang]

BP, Shell and Caltex all advise boat owners not to use ethanol mix fuels in boats. They say that is mostly because ethanol has a dramatically shorter life, especially in a marine environment.

Both, Its quite clear,  "especially in a marine environment", It absorbs moisture from the environment causing it to separate faster than normal....  I live on the coast in a high humidity environment, boating is the number 1 pastime, my Father managed a boat company for over 20 years, I grew up on the water and have worked as a professional fisherman, moisture is the number one enemy in the marine environment, in both petrol and diesel fuels, the problem increased with the use of ethanol in marine fuels. Most of summer here is between 70 and 90+% humidity, even in our very mild winters humidity is high, 3 major oil companies state this warning and place it on their pumps, I'm sure they know what they are recommending...?

Are we talking bikes or boats here? Until the day comes that I decide to drop my 750 engine in a jet ski or even buy a boat for that matter only then will I keep that in mind and heed the oil companies warning. At the moment though the engine is still in a motorcycle frame and as you yourself quoted the problem is mostly because of ethanols dramatically shorter shelf life. If you took the time to read my responses you'd have figured out I'm already aware of ethanols ability to absorb moisture and it's short shelf life and I'm already aware the more moisture it has to absorb the shorter it's shelf life but it still doesn't put me in panic mode like it seems to do to others because both my bikes are ridden often enough that I don't give the ethanol or it's water absorption ability enough time to be an issue. You'd also know that I don't like E10 anymore than anyone else but it doesn't scare me either. If your bike happens to have E10 in it's tank there's nothing to have a panic attack about, just get on the bike and ride it and later fill up with ethanol free ....... or just put E10 back in it if you don't have a choice and ride it some more and fill up with ethanol free when you can.

[Retro Rocket]

BP, Shell and Caltex all advise boat owners not to use ethanol mix fuels in boats. They say that is mostly because ethanol has a dramatically shorter life, especially in a marine environment.

Both, Its quite clear,  "especially in a marine environment", It absorbs moisture from the environment causing it to separate faster than normal....  I live on the coast in a high humidity environment, boating is the number 1 pastime, my Father managed a boat company for over 20 years, I grew up on the water and have worked as a professional fisherman, moisture is the number one enemy in the marine environment, in both petrol and diesel fuels, the problem increased with the use of ethanol in marine fuels. Most of summer here is between 70 and 90+% humidity, even in our very mild winters humidity is high, 3 major oil companies state this warning and place it on their pumps, I'm sure they know what they are recommending...?

Are we talking bikes or boats here? Until the day comes that I decide to drop my 750 engine in a jet ski or even buy a boat for that matter only then will I keep that in mind and heed the oil companies warning. At the moment though the engine is still in a motorcycle frame and as you yourself quoted the problem is mostly because of ethanols dramatically shorter shelf life. If you took the time to read my responses you'd have figured out I'm already aware of ethanols ability to absorb moisture and it's short shelf life and I'm already aware the more moisture it has to absorb the shorter it's shelf life but it still doesn't put me in panic mode like it seems to do to others because both my bikes are ridden often enough that I don't give the ethanol or it's water absorption ability enough time to be an issue. You'd also know that I don't like E10 anymore than anyone else but it doesn't scare me either. If your bike happens to have E10 in it's tank there's nothing to have a panic attack about, just get on the bike and ride it and later fill up with ethanol free ....... or just put E10 back in it if you don't have a choice and ride it some more and fill up with ethanol free when you can.

Read the "question" you asked before I replied , you also referenced boats , I answered your question, seeings though I also referred to High Humidity and heat, its also relevant to bikes and cars, for anyone living in those conditions  ...  Not sure what your reference to "Panic" and "Scare" are all about, only fools panic....

So which is it? Because it absorbs moisture or because it has a short shelf life? The ethanol free pump around here is real popular with the recreational boaters here because they don't use their boats on a regular basis.

[Bailgang]

BP, Shell and Caltex all advise boat owners not to use ethanol mix fuels in boats. They say that is mostly because ethanol has a dramatically shorter life, especially in a marine environment.

Both, Its quite clear,  "especially in a marine environment", It absorbs moisture from the environment causing it to separate faster than normal....  I live on the coast in a high humidity environment, boating is the number 1 pastime, my Father managed a boat company for over 20 years, I grew up on the water and have worked as a professional fisherman, moisture is the number one enemy in the marine environment, in both petrol and diesel fuels, the problem increased with the use of ethanol in marine fuels. Most of summer here is between 70 and 90+% humidity, even in our very mild winters humidity is high, 3 major oil companies state this warning and place it on their pumps, I'm sure they know what they are recommending...?

Are we talking bikes or boats here? Until the day comes that I decide to drop my 750 engine in a jet ski or even buy a boat for that matter only then will I keep that in mind and heed the oil companies warning. At the moment though the engine is still in a motorcycle frame and as you yourself quoted the problem is mostly because of ethanols dramatically shorter shelf life. If you took the time to read my responses you'd have figured out I'm already aware of ethanols ability to absorb moisture and it's short shelf life and I'm already aware the more moisture it has to absorb the shorter it's shelf life but it still doesn't put me in panic mode like it seems to do to others because both my bikes are ridden often enough that I don't give the ethanol or it's water absorption ability enough time to be an issue. You'd also know that I don't like E10 anymore than anyone else but it doesn't scare me either. If your bike happens to have E10 in it's tank there's nothing to have a panic attack about, just get on the bike and ride it and later fill up with ethanol free ....... or just put E10 back in it if you don't have a choice and ride it some more and fill up with ethanol free when you can.

Read the "question" you asked before I replied , you also referenced boats , I answered your question, seeings though I also referred to High Humidity and heat, its also relevant to bikes and cars, for anyone living in those conditions  ...  Not sure what your referenced to "Panic" and "Scare" are all about, only fools panic....

So which is it? Because it absorbs moisture or because it has a short shelf life? The ethanol free pump around here is real popular with the recreational boaters here because they don't use their boats on a regular basis.

Yes Retro but if you had noticed I never questioned why they preferred using ethanol free..... because I already knew why. They don't use their boats on a regular basis therefore E10 wouldn't be a good idea. Do I really have to spell it out? I simply mentioned the recreational boaters in my area preference for ethanol free as a reference in regards to E10's short shelf life, there was nothing to read in between the lines about.

[Retro Rocket]

BP, Shell and Caltex all advise boat owners not to use ethanol mix fuels in boats. They say that is mostly because ethanol has a dramatically shorter life, especially in a marine environment.

Both, Its quite clear,  "especially in a marine environment", It absorbs moisture from the environment causing it to separate faster than normal....  I live on the coast in a high humidity environment, boating is the number 1 pastime, my Father managed a boat company for over 20 years, I grew up on the water and have worked as a professional fisherman, moisture is the number one enemy in the marine environment, in both petrol and diesel fuels, the problem increased with the use of ethanol in marine fuels. Most of summer here is between 70 and 90+% humidity, even in our very mild winters humidity is high, 3 major oil companies state this warning and place it on their pumps, I'm sure they know what they are recommending...?

Are we talking bikes or boats here? Until the day comes that I decide to drop my 750 engine in a jet ski or even buy a boat for that matter only then will I keep that in mind and heed the oil companies warning. At the moment though the engine is still in a motorcycle frame and as you yourself quoted the problem is mostly because of ethanols dramatically shorter shelf life. If you took the time to read my responses you'd have figured out I'm already aware of ethanols ability to absorb moisture and it's short shelf life and I'm already aware the more moisture it has to absorb the shorter it's shelf life but it still doesn't put me in panic mode like it seems to do to others because both my bikes are ridden often enough that I don't give the ethanol or it's water absorption ability enough time to be an issue. You'd also know that I don't like E10 anymore than anyone else but it doesn't scare me either. If your bike happens to have E10 in it's tank there's nothing to have a panic attack about, just get on the bike and ride it and later fill up with ethanol free ....... or just put E10 back in it if you don't have a choice and ride it some more and fill up with ethanol free when you can.

Read the "question" you asked before I replied , you also referenced boats , I answered your question, seeings though I also referred to High Humidity and heat, its also relevant to bikes and cars, for anyone living in those conditions  ...  Not sure what your referenced to "Panic" and "Scare" are all about, only fools panic....

So which is it? Because it absorbs moisture or because it has a short shelf life? The ethanol free pump around here is real popular with the recreational boaters here because they don't use their boats on a regular basis.

Yes Retro but if you had noticed I never questioned why they preferred using ethanol free..... because I already knew why. They don't use their boats on a regular basis therefore E10 wouldn't be a good idea. Do I really have to spell it out? I simply mentioned the recreational boaters in my area preference for ethanol free as a reference in regards to E10's short shelf life, there was nothing to read in between the lines about.

But you simply disregard the fact that originally I wasn't talking to you, you replied to me, who has the comprehension problem.....FFS

I'll help you out  seeings though you seem to be struggling a bit .

pjlogue mentioned that Ethanol was "Hydroscopic", you understand that ..? So I mentioned that I live in a humid area near the ocean and then went onto the reasons ethanol isn't recommended in this environment {increased hydroscopic effect}, and is stated so by 3 large oil companies, getting there yet..?  Now, if its the environment that adds to the problem then my post was relevant, whether you like it or not, I was never referencing anything you said, just answering your question........

[Bailgang]

Retro, you made 2 quotes, one about water absorption and the next saying the main problem was short shelf life and I just wanted to know which point you were trying to make. We both obviously took our replies the wrong way. I thinks it's fair to say we both don't like E10 all that much, we both agree it absorbs water/moisture and we both agree it has a short shelf life and the world's not going to come to an end if we are in a situation where we don't have a choice. Now I'm sure the rest here are thoroughly enjoying their bowls of popcorn reading all this but I don't have much of an appetite for any popcorn myself so can we just settle this?

[grcamna2]

I enjoy the better power and nice throttle response of Ethanol Free fuel in my bike and when I use E10 it feels like the bike needs a tune-up;I'm spoiled on it and hate to go back to E10 even when i do have to.I like Prokop's link in his signature,it's a good way to find a station within range even on a trip.  The difference is like night and day between the two,especially in the smaller bikes. imo