Author Topic: Wheel hop II 750 k0  (Read 3558 times)

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Offline DickL

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Wheel hop II 750 k0
« on: August 04, 2017, 05:51:54 PM »
I've been having a front wheel hop. Both wheels are trued. New bearings front and  back. Tires balanced. New tires. Old tires did it too. It had a,16 inch rear, i pulled that pUT on a stock swingarm changed bushings. New rim,  laced trued balanced. I haven't done fork oil. I raised air pressure and lowered air pressure. Still hops. I did notice that while doing a run up on the stand the rear wheel hopped bad. Chain was no good. Put on a new chain. Tighened the stem nut to correct torque. No notching. Haven't done a test ride yet but on the center stand much better.

Now the question. Is it possible that an incorrectly torqued swing arm could have caused the problem? It was 15lbs now 45lbs. Tomorrow a road test. None of the road tests were,more than a mile. Front hop started about 30mph and stopped at 45 to 50.

Your opinions please

DICKL
1970 CB750
1999 Honda Valkyrie

Offline Stev-o

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Re: Wheel hop II 750 k0
« Reply #1 on: August 04, 2017, 06:17:44 PM »
Typically, wheel hop turns out to be tire related.  I recently experienced on a Suzuki I purchased, the new tire solved the problem.

I know your tire is new, did you check runout on it?
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Offline DickL

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Re: Wheel hop II 750 k0
« Reply #2 on: August 04, 2017, 06:39:01 PM »
When I spin the front with the front wheel of the ground there is not any runout, up and down or side to side. Same with rear. The tires are centered on the rim as well. The reason I don't think it's the tire is that the same hop was there with the previous used rim that had an old Continental that was also centered, balanced and true. The new tire is a metzler.
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Offline HondaMan

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Re: Wheel hop II 750 k0
« Reply #3 on: August 04, 2017, 08:07:39 PM »
Here's some things that are a bit more esoteric, but might lead to the hint of what's up:

1. On the centerstand, jack the front wheel up off the ground. Maybe have a friend sit on the bike, and put it into gear so it won't roll toward you when you do this next (tricky) part: grab both front forks and push toward the bike and pull back toward you (the second part can pull the bike off the centerstand, hence the friend...) several times to see if it gives, or 'clunks' a little bit. What you're looking for is: either sorely worn fork bushings, which are right at the top of the legs, just below the seals, or one or two loose alignment tube(s) inside the lower. There is, on most K0 and almost all K1, a small socket-head bolt in the center of the arch of the axle crotch on the end of the forks. This bolt has a copper (or aluminum) washer above it, for a seal. If it is loose, the forks can wiggle, and clunk. This often also makes them leak fork oil at the axle. If you have forks with no bolts on their axle-hump end, then the tube was pressed into the lower by Honda: if it has come loose, this usually is the end of the fork leg because it cracked inside to let this tube come loose. This isn't a a terrible thing, as any other K0/1 and K2 before the "anti-beeper" button (left handlebar switch) disappeared has fork lowers that will fit your tubes.

2. The K0-K2 early bikes often lacked drain holes in the lower frame tubes, right behind the engine bolster bolt (behind the points cover), and/or they got painted shut. This can let the frame rust and rot right there, which makes the whole bike accordion front-back-front-back, causing an apparent wheel-hop sensation as the forks alternately compress and release. Use some slip-joint pliers, maybe wrap the frame with cardboard to protect the paint, and squeeze the frame tubes, right behind the front bottom mounts, to see if the frame squishes easily. If so, it needs a frame repair, pretty quick(!).

A distant 3rd option: guys who used to chop these bikes often removed the 2 "extra" backbone tubes between the tank's rear crossmember and the steering neck. They wanted a "lighter" look. If they followed this with extended front forks, the whole bike would "caterpillar" its way down the road until about 30 MPH, and you had to use only the rear brake to stop, or it would steer itself wild upon braking. I would not test-ride them around a corner when they came in for service, as they flexed like a rubber band in a turn. Are all 3 top frame members in place? Or, if it has a "frame mod" kit, are the end clamps of the insert portion(s) nice and tight?
« Last Edit: August 04, 2017, 10:37:03 PM by HondaMan »
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Offline jgger

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Re: Wheel hop II 750 k0
« Reply #4 on: August 04, 2017, 08:13:11 PM »
Get the front wheel off the ground . Grab the bottom of the forks at the axle and see if you have any front to back movement.

Years ago I had after market fork tubes on mine and it had a little bounce. Pulled the forks apart and mic'd the bushings in the lowers and the tubes, turned out it was out of spec (too much clearance). The wobble/bounce wasn't bad, just annoying. Wrecked the bike before I could fix it. I hit a water patch on a curve at 80 MPH, the wobble didn't cause the crash.

HondaMan jumped on it before I could finish typing.......My issue was #1, bushing clearance.
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Offline HondaMan

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Re: Wheel hop II 750 k0
« Reply #5 on: August 04, 2017, 08:15:17 PM »
HondaMan jumped on it before I could finish typing.......My issue was #1, bushing clearance.

Ya gotta watch that guy...he's like horse manure... :D
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
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Offline jgger

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Re: Wheel hop II 750 k0
« Reply #6 on: August 04, 2017, 08:27:06 PM »


Ya gotta watch that guy...he's like horse manure... :D
[/quote]

I wouldn't say that.......but you do SPLAIN things better than I can! :)
"The SOHC4 uses a computer located about 2-3 ft above the seat.  Those sometimes need additional programming." -stolen from  Two Tired

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Offline scottly

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Re: Wheel hop II 750 k0
« Reply #7 on: August 04, 2017, 08:44:02 PM »
Front hop started about 30mph and stopped at 45 to 50.

Your opinions please

DICKL
Is The hop strictly up and down? If so, suspect out of balance or loose spokes.
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Offline 754

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Re: Wheel hop II 750 k0
« Reply #8 on: August 04, 2017, 08:56:28 PM »
You said wheels are true.
You said on stand rear wheel has hop
So its either the tire, or the tire is not seated properly.
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Offline Don R

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Re: Wheel hop II 750 k0
« Reply #9 on: August 05, 2017, 11:27:12 AM »
 If a shop balanced it, check that again. I've paid good money for a balance job that was clearly out of balance. Remove or loosen the caliper and rotate the wheel to see if there's a heavy side.
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Offline DickL

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Re: Wheel hop II 750 k0 update
« Reply #10 on: August 07, 2017, 02:04:37 PM »
The new chain helped as the old one was semi locked up in certain areas. Torqueing the swing arm might have made a small diffefence. The front hop is better but to a lesser extent.

Upon scrutiny the Metzler Lasertec is not centered on the rim. The lines were at least one line off side to side. So, I let the air out of tire, broke the bead and bounced it to try and shift the tire. It moved some but is now off about half a line or less with makes the wheel and tire .12  instead of .25. The rim however is true. Time for anot her test ride if it ever stops raining.

If I can't get it right a new tire is in order. Will a Dunlop D404 100/90 19 fit?

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Offline 754

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Re: Wheel hop II 750 k0
« Reply #11 on: August 07, 2017, 02:33:57 PM »
Do you use soap or Ru Glyde, when seating the tire ? IF YOU are not, could be part of the problem.
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It's All part of the ADVENTURE...

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Offline seanbarney41

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Re: Wheel hop II 750 k0
« Reply #12 on: August 07, 2017, 07:13:30 PM »
If those lines are not perfectly parallel with the edge of the rim all the way around on both sides, there's your problem, and whoever mounted the tire is at fault.

You are on the right track to fixing it.  Deflate it, break the bead, get some lube in there, Ru-Glide works best, inflate til it seats all the way around, you will probably have to wayyy over-inflate, often you will hear the bead snap into place, don't blow yourself up, and don't ride the bike until the tire seats evenly all the way around and you have corrected the tire pressure
« Last Edit: August 07, 2017, 07:17:56 PM by seanbarney41 »
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Offline DickL

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Re: Wheel hop II 750 k0
« Reply #13 on: August 08, 2017, 07:00:23 PM »
Tried ru glide 5 times, tried a ratchet strap, tried a clamp. Out a half a ring. I'll try  A short test ride tomorrow to see how it is.
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Offline HondaMan

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Re: Wheel hop II 750 k0
« Reply #14 on: August 08, 2017, 07:50:43 PM »
Tried ru glide 5 times, tried a ratchet strap, tried a clamp. Out a half a ring. I'll try  A short test ride tomorrow to see how it is.
Mine was like that when I finally removed the TT100 tire I had up front for 35,000 miles (it was still in good tread, but old and cracking). The rim had rusted and expanded in one spot (near the tube's stem), and though I scraped the rust off, it was still raised there and the bead was off by 1/2 ring, like you're describing. I finally re-re-removed the new tire and ground the rust down (to bare metal!) to make it seat straight. I ended up greasing it all around the rim (instead of the usual soap or Ru-glyde stuff), and it seated. I fully expected the new tire's bead would suffer from the grease, but years later it was still fine (so I did it again with my current Avons). This winter I'm putting taller Avons on, will see then if the grease attacked these beads.
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
Hondaman's creed: "Bikers are family. Treat them accordingly."

Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

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Offline DickL

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Re: Wheel hop II 750 k0 update
« Reply #15 on: August 17, 2017, 01:29:16 PM »
I got rid of the Metzler Lazer that wouldn't center on rim. It was off about 1.5 rings. Tried dishsoap, chain lube, ru glide and grease. It just wouldn't center. So I put on a new Avon Speed master MKII and the problem was solved.

Thanks for all your help!

DICKL
1970 CB750
1999 Honda Valkyrie

Offline Stev-o

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Re: Wheel hop II 750 k0
« Reply #16 on: August 17, 2017, 01:56:32 PM »
I suspected it was the tire, I had the same issue recently.

Thanks for coming back with the update, it may help someone else out in the future...
'74 "Big Bang" Honda 750K [836].....'76 Honda 550F.....K3 Park Racer!......and a Bomber!............plus plus plus.........

Offline DickL

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Re: Wheel hop II 750 k0
« Reply #17 on: August 17, 2017, 03:19:05 PM »
Great minds think alike
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Offline Proto

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Re: Wheel hop II 750 k0
« Reply #18 on: August 18, 2017, 07:12:42 AM »
I am late to this party!  The real experts have already solved it.  While prepping for the SOHC reunion in Dolores, I put two new Shinko tires on the old F1.  I ended up with a terrible front end wobble at around 45mph.  Sure enough, front tire was not seated right.  No matter how much Ru Glyde, air pressure, pounding, massaging, etc, I could not get the darn thing to seat right in one spot.  Now after Honda Mans explanation of his problem, I wonder if I have rust in that portion of the rim?  My thought on the matter at the time was that the tubeless type tire was not seating right for some reason so in desperation, I ordered a Dunlop K70 tube type tire and it popped right on and seated properly first try.  Test drove it and wobble gone!  Will look for rust next time I pull the tire off.
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Offline Stev-o

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Re: Wheel hop II 750 k0
« Reply #19 on: August 18, 2017, 07:32:44 AM »
I am late to this party!  The real experts have already solved it.  While prepping for the SOHC reunion in Dolores, I put two new Shinko tires on the old F1.  I ended up with a terrible front end wobble at around 45mph.  Sure enough, front tire was not seated right.  No matter how much Ru Glyde, air pressure, pounding, massaging, etc, I could not get the darn thing to seat right in one spot.  Now after Honda Mans explanation of his problem, I wonder if I have rust in that portion of the rim?  My thought on the matter at the time was that the tubeless type tire was not seating right for some reason so in desperation, I ordered a Dunlop K70 tube type tire and it popped right on and seated properly first try.  Test drove it and wobble gone!  Will look for rust next time I pull the tire off.

If the issue was rust, wouldnt it have had the same effect on the Dunlop?  Seems the issue was the cheap Shinko in your case.
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Offline PeWe

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Re: Wheel hop II 750 k0
« Reply #20 on: August 18, 2017, 01:41:01 PM »
My previous front wheel had jumping/vibrating behavior. I tried with much higher pressure and lowered it again and it did not want to seat correctly. I finally replaced the front tire with a new when rear was flat but front had much rubber left. This was in the beginning of my bikes come back with carb jetting as first prio.
Front wheel also a Metzeler Lasertec as rear. Bike got a new set of Dunlop Streetsmart and what an improvement in handling!
I have since then replaced rear again, this time std size 4.0-18.  H tire will hopefully live longer than V as the 120/90 had.
120/90 got short life (max 4800km) and flat really quick (before 4000km) with horrible handling when it flattened.

Front will also get std dim next time 3.25-19, now 100/90-19.
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Offline Proto

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Re: Wheel hop II 750 k0
« Reply #21 on: August 18, 2017, 09:15:29 PM »
You are probably right Stev-o.  Just out of curiosity though,  is there a difference in the shape/profile of the beads on tube and tubeless tires?
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Offline HondaMan

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Re: Wheel hop II 750 k0
« Reply #22 on: August 19, 2017, 08:02:26 PM »
You are probably right Stev-o.  Just out of curiosity though,  is there a difference in the shape/profile of the beads on tube and tubeless tires?
Yes. The tube type are getting harder to come by, but at least some brands try to make a bead that works well for both. The tube-type bead is easier to seat than the tubeless type, and their bead cross-section profile fits the normal spoked rims a little better.
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
Hondaman's creed: "Bikers are family. Treat them accordingly."

Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

Link to My CB750 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?adult_audience_rating=00&page=1&pageSize=10&q=my+cb750+book

Link to website: www.SOHC4shop.com

Offline Stev-o

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Re: Wheel hop II 750 k0
« Reply #23 on: August 19, 2017, 08:13:19 PM »
You are probably right Stev-o.  Just out of curiosity though,  is there a difference in the shape/profile of the beads on tube and tubeless tires?
Yes. The tube type are getting harder to come by...

Of the dozen or so tires I've purchased the last couple years [for various bikes] I dont think any of them were for tube use only.
'74 "Big Bang" Honda 750K [836].....'76 Honda 550F.....K3 Park Racer!......and a Bomber!............plus plus plus.........